Spacer and studs for the front strut mount

[SpoonChucker]

I guess I don’t understand what you’re looking for. It seems like you just contradicted yourself claiming that you can’t use any spacer that is not specified by the factory, yet you are looking to use a custom spacer to raise your springs 1.25 inches???

[benebob]

Originally Posted by SpoonChucker

I guess I don’t understand what you’re looking for. It seems like you just contradicted yourself claiming that you can’t use any spacer that is not specified by the factory, yet you are looking to use a custom spacer to raise your springs 1.25 inches???

Guess you don't understand then what a spring spacer is and a strut spacer is. Sring spacer illegal. Strut spacer has been used since the dawn of time on racers. The strut spacer won't touch a spring only the top mount. Rules is rules. If you don't like 'em and don't wanna follow 'em you don't get to play in their playground.

[SpoonChucker]

Originally Posted by benebob

No I understand ya correctly, its NOT legal in NASA or SCCA racing at least in prepared and production classing as it stated planly that you can't use spacers of any kind that aren't speced from factory.

As I said we're very happy with the set up. Just need about an inch to make it perfect.

Of course new springs would be a solution but it would also be a costlier solution. Keep in mind I'm married and have a wife who pays for my racing.

I guess when you use the terms "spacers of any kind", that means any kind except what you had in mind (it very well may be stated plainly, but your translation was anything but that). I was only trying to figure out what you may need, for we own a mill and a lathe so machining relatively simple parts would not be a problem, I don't understand why you are so negative to those that are trying to help such as sperry and myself.

[benebob]

Originally Posted by SpoonChucker

I guess when you use the terms "spacers of any kind", that means any kind except what you had in mind (it very well may be stated plainly, but your translation was anything but that). I was only trying to figure out what you may need, for we own a mill and a lathe so machining relatively simple parts would not be a problem, I don't understand why you are so negative to those that are trying to help such as sperry and myself.

Negative huh? Ya must be reading into something that isn't there but that's fine. I guess simply stating that it can't be done as there are two issues with spring spacers in the GCR ya need to draw out to 2 pages of crap about why we should do something we can't for our class. Ya don't think I've done the research? Building a car with bolt on parts and aftermarket support is easy. Building something no one else has done is anything but with tons of either pricy custom work or adaptation. Lets see. $80 springs with a $50 spacer or $600 springs that can't be used as they aren't legal in class? Which would you choose?

[SpoonChucker]

First off I never used the term spring spacer and you said "spacers of any kind" not "SPRING spacers of any kind". Maybe that why there is confusion. Do you have any dimensions or a drawing of what you are looking for?

[sperry]

Originally Posted by benebob

No I understand ya correctly, its NOT legal in NASA or SCCA racing at least in prepared and production classing as it stated planly that you can't use spacers of any kind that aren't speced from factory.

As I said we're very happy with the set up. Just need about an inch to make it perfect.

Of course new springs would be a solution but it would also be a costlier solution. Keep in mind I'm married and have a wife who pays for my racing.

Here's passage from the '07 GCR:

9.1.4
K.
4: Suspension springs are free. Coil-over units may be added to supplement, or replace, OEM springs. Attaching points may be reinforced. It is permitted to use threaded spring seats for adjustability.

5. Shock absorbers and struts are free. Driver adjustable systems, or electronically controlled shocks, are not permitted. If a reservoir/adjustment canister is used, only one may be used per shock. The shocks at each individual wheel may not be connected in any way.

So tender springs are perfectly legal, and are *very* common on cars in those classes... check out just about any old World Challenge cars.

As far as Production rules, here's what they say:

9.1.5
5.
c. Springs and Shock Absorbers

1. Any springs or torsion bars may be used in the vehicle’s original suspension configuration, provided the quantity of these items does not exceed the number originally provided by the manufacturer. Spring seats and points of attachment may be altered to accept alternate springs. The use of tender springs (designed to capture the spring with the perches at full droop) are permitted provided the tender springs are completely compressed when the car is at static ride height. Static ride height shall be determined with driver seated in the normal driving position.

2. Alternately, all cars may fit “coil-over” type springs with tubular, load bearing shock absorbers or struts. The shock absorber or MacPherson/Chapman strut shall be installed inside the spring. Such items shall not exceed one spring and shock/strut per wheel. When load bearing shocks are used, the original springs may be removed.

So not only are tenders legal in Production, they *have* to be used in the manner I outlined. Remember part 2 doesn't apply to you since the SVX is originally equipped with coilover MacPherson struts. You're building under the rules that allow you to use alternate springs on the existing suspension layout.

But none of that matters in Production, since as far as I can tell, the SVX isn't eligible for competition in any of the SCCA Production classes.

So, I would still suggest using tender springs inline with the main spring. It's a tried and true method for getting the suspension a bit higher, and will cost about $60 or so, and won't require machining strut top spacers and finding longer bolts, etc.

And for that matter for about $120 you can just order a set of Eibach springs in the specific length and rate for your application.

[benebob]

Ah but you're missing where it says that the number of springs or struts/shocks cannot change from spec. What you're showing is 2 where there once was one which for Hillclimbing is according to the rulebook not permitted.

Ebach wanted much more than $120 when I talked to them although the price might have gone down by 3x in the past 2 years right?




No the SVX isn't classed. If you have read what we're doing we're in the process to ask that it become classed.

Originally Posted by sperry

Here's passage from the '07 GCR:



So tender springs are perfectly legal, and are *very* common on cars in those classes... check out just about any old World Challenge cars.

As far as Production rules, here's what they say:



So not only are tenders legal in Production, they *have* to be used in the manner I outlined. Remember part 2 doesn't apply to you since the SVX is originally equipped with coilover MacPherson struts. You're building under the rules that allow you to use alternate springs on the existing suspension layout.

But none of that matters in Production, since as far as I can tell, the SVX isn't eligible for competition in any of the SCCA Production classes.

So, I would still suggest using tender springs inline with the main spring. It's a tried and true method for getting the suspension a bit higher, and will cost about $60 or so, and won't require machining strut top spacers and finding longer bolts, etc.

And for that matter for about $120 you can just order a set of Eibach springs in the specific length and rate for your application.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by benebob

Ah but you're missing where it says that the number of springs or struts/shocks cannot change from spec. What you're showing is 2 where there once was one which for Hillclimbing is according to the rulebook not permitted.

Ebach wanted much more than $120 when I talked to them although the price might have gone down by 3x in the past 2 years right?

No the SVX isn't classed. If you have read what we're doing we're in the process to ask that it become classed.

It seems very unusual that they'd disallow helper springs in classes where they allow complete replacement struts. I'd bet you're just misinterpreting the wording of the rules.

Now, I can see them disallowing adding parallel springs to a car, but inline springs like helpers have been used forever to get non-linear rates. I'd be very surprised to learn that something like the Whiteline Group 4's aren't legal where coilovers in general are:



Is the number of springs comment in regards to 5.c.1 above? They disallow additional springs, but specifically allow tenders. Similar language appears in 6.b.3.

I will guarantee a rule set that allows $1200/corner remote-reservoir multi-adjustable shocks is also going to allow progressive springs via spring stacking. I know how frustratingly complicated SCCA rules tend to be, but I don't think they're quite that bad. I think they just want to limit people bolting 3 sets of leaf springs on the back of an old Spitfire or something.

As far as Hillclimb, that's Level 4 time trials, which are under the GCR for allowed mods. I don't think there's anything specific in the TT rules with regards to springs.

Anyway, the normal route for height adjustment on a MacPherson strut is spring perch adjustment, then spring length, then tender springs, then strut top spacers. It looked to me like you were jumping to the more difficult solution first for no good reason. But if you've got your reasons, I'm not going to argue with you.

As far as Eibach springs, check here: http://www.ground-control-store.com/...gory.php/CA=31
Most are $60/spring plus (possible) tax and shipping, assuming you're using 2.5" ID springs, which is what most people run with Konis. Lengths from 1.75" to 14", all sorts of rates. Plus the guys at GC seem to be very willing to let you try stuff out and trade it in if it's not quite right as long as you've only test fit it.

Good luck with getting the SVX classed in Production as well... working through that sort of stuff is hard. Having written the NORPAC Time Trials Production Rules, I know how hard it is to deal with attempting to provide fair competition.

[benebob]

No we're not running GC or even Koni's for that matter. Running standard witdth Impreza stuff on there. Perch adjustment isn't really possible when you're not taking the oil out.

I'm reading the rules as they are stated. To me if it doesn't say you can run with 8 springs then you can't. Granted that's my interp but I'd rather error on the side of caution at this point then waste money on something I know I won't be able to get rid of easily. To me how hard is it to misread you can only run the same number of spring or struts as was OEM? To me when it mentions nothing about parallel how else can you interpret it. Its tough when you're still not classed and know your specific perameters.

Granted I'm an old school in thought process. Wouldn't touch a spring with a 500lbs rate such as yourself but there are give and takes on both. One isn't necessarily better or faster. It just takes a different set up.

Happen to know and have proof of the piston weight of an SVX? Good god am I sick of trying to fill out the required submittal sheets with the back up evidence!

[sperry]

Originally Posted by benebob

No we're not running GC or even Koni's for that matter. Running standard witdth Impreza stuff on there. Perch adjustment isn't really possible when you're not taking the oil out.

I'm reading the rules as they are stated. To me if it doesn't say you can run with 8 springs then you can't. Granted that's my interp but I'd rather error on the side of caution at this point then waste money on something I know I won't be able to get rid of easily. To me how hard is it to misread you can only run the same number of spring or struts as was OEM? To me when it mentions nothing about parallel how else can you interpret it. Its tough when you're still not classed and know your specific perameters.

Granted I'm an old school in thought process. Wouldn't touch a spring with a 500lbs rate such as yourself but there are give and takes on both. One isn't necessarily better or faster. It just takes a different set up.

Happen to know and have proof of the piston weight of an SVX? Good god am I sick of trying to fill out the required submittal sheets with the back up evidence!

GCR rule 9.1.5 5.c.1 which you're referring too about the "same number as stock" goes on to clearly and specifically allow tender springs as long as they bottom out completely at normal ride height, which was exactly my original recommendation for raising the front end.

But if you're not running an aftermarket coilover on the car, you'll have a hard time finding OEM sized tenders at any price.

And while 500lb/in springs sound really stiff, at 120 mph with 255 width race tires under the car, you can still get a ton of body roll due to all the inertia of the car. For the same reason you're trying to get the front end up (to help fight the positive camber gain) stiff springs and swaybars will help. As long as the dampers are correct for the spring rate, and the balance is correct front to rear, the car is really not all that harsh on track. But I certainly wouldn't want to drive on that stuff daily. My current Tein setup is 670f/500r and it's plenty soft even at the bumpy Reno-Fernley Raceway.

To be frank, if you plan on competitively racing an SVX in SCCA Club Racing, you will likely need something better than cobbled together Impreza parts. Either a well made kit specifically for the SVX for which replacement parts are available, or some more permanent conversion to the car to allow you to use something that is more available (like converting the knuckles). If you breaks something at the track during practice, you probably won't have the option of spreading some Impreza struts, and grinding this and that, and welding on an endlink mount to get back out for qualifying.

Considering the (lack of) options for the SVX, I would suggest springing for the Koni insert/GC for the SVX that are popular on the board. The struts are rebuildable, the perches are height adjustable, the springs are standard 2.5" ID Eibachs... it will give you options for setting up the car properly, soft or hard, whatever your preference. There's no way you'll ever corner balance the car on OEM struts.

But I do understand racing on a budget (mostly because I wish I would sometimes ) and that want and need aren't the same thing. I'm sure you want a slick set of coilovers, but all you need is to raise the ride height of the car... which a strut top spacer will accomplish. Just make sure that's not considered "relocating the suspension mount point" or some such nonsense.

As far as the piston weight, I've got no clue... nor do I have an idea where you'd get "proof" other than mailing the SCCA a piston and a scale and telling them, "check it yourself". It's not like that info is in the FSM. I'm sure some of the guys around here with EG33's scattered about their garage floors could weigh one for you, but that's hardly "documented proof".

[benebob]

Originally Posted by sperry

To be frank, if you plan on competitively racing an SVX in SCCA Club Racing, you will likely need something better than cobbled together Impreza parts. Either a well made kit specifically for the SVX for which replacement parts are available, or some more permanent conversion to the car to allow you to use something that is more available (like converting the knuckles). If you breaks something at the track during practice, you probably won't have the option of spreading some Impreza struts, and grinding this and that, and welding on an endlink mount to get back out for qualifying.

Considering the (lack of) options for the SVX, I would suggest springing for the Koni insert/GC for the SVX that are popular on the board. The struts are rebuildable, the perches are height adjustable, the springs are standard 2.5" ID Eibachs... it will give you options for setting up the car properly, soft or hard, whatever your preference. There's no way you'll ever corner balance the car on OEM struts.

At least we'll look better than any Not-to-Impressive on a track besides its a hill climb car not a track car. Lots of low speed turns followed by areas it might se 100mph. Its easy to talk about needing this and that but until you figure out what works and what doesn't then you really can't buy anything. That's what we doing on an anual budget that is well less than list for 4 22.5x10 r16s. I'm still trying to save up money for an actual alignment as the car has only been aligned via my eyes. Sure it costs money to do it but we also pass everything on to others thinking of doing the same with an SVX. It isn't like we have an R&D department working on an SVX anywhere out there which also means we've built not bought our car.

I've driven with the Koni/gc and to be honest we already outhandle any of 'em out there with our cobbled together set up. Once we make the jump it will be to something decent (the koni/gc is mediocore at best for our desires works nice of a street car but not a PA pothole car). As I think I stated already we do have Koni inserts up front and I'm actually happier with the stock Impreza fronts in the rear than I am the konis.

At this point we have the fastest NA SVX out there which is what we set out to do. All this for under $4k including a trailer which is something most people can't say about their racing habits. My only goal is to gain an understanding of racing so I can teach my daughter how to race. Whatever enjoyment I get out of it on the side is fine. That mostly comes when we slaughter prepared porsches at this point.

[SVXRide]

Originally Posted by benebob

At least we'll look better than any Not-to-Impressive on a track besides its a hill climb car not a track car. Lots of low speed turns followed by areas it might se 100mph. Its easy to talk about needing this and that but until you figure out what works and what doesn't then you really can't buy anything. That's what we doing on an anual budget that is well less than list for 4 22.5x10 r16s. I'm still trying to save up money for an actual alignment as the car has only been aligned via my eyes. Sure it costs money to do it but we also pass everything on to others thinking of doing the same with an SVX. It isn't like we have an R&D department working on an SVX anywhere out there which also means we've built not bought our car.

I've driven with the Koni/gc and to be honest we already outhandle any of 'em out there with our cobbled together set up. Once we make the jump it will be to something decent (the koni/gc is mediocore at best for our desires works nice of a street car but not a PA pothole car). As I think I stated already we do have Koni inserts up front and I'm actually happier with the stock Impreza fronts in the rear than I am the konis.

At this point we have the fastest NA SVX out there which is what we set out to do. All this for under $4k including a trailer which is something most people can't say about their racing habits. My only goal is to gain an understanding of racing so I can teach my daughter how to race. Whatever enjoyment I get out of it on the side is fine. That mostly comes when we slaughter prepared porsches at this point.

Teach your daughter how to race? Damn, Ben, that's 15 years from now
-Bill
p.s. I'm still willing to talk to Sean about machining up spacers, just give me a call...

[Hocrest]

Originally Posted by SVXRide

Teach your daughter how to race? Damn, Ben, that's 15 years from now

I doubt he'll wait that long, there is racing outside of the SCCA world you know...

I bet that she has her first race before Billstock *.* beats the racer at a Subaru Challenge

but then again, that could be at least 15 years from now

[SVXRide]

Originally Posted by Hocrest

I doubt he'll wait that long, there is racing outside of the SCCA world you know...

I bet that she has her first race before Billstock *.* beats the racer at a Subaru Challenge

but then again, that could be at least 15 years from now

Dave,
come on now, I had the racer beat for all of about 15 seconds last year
I think this year will be very interesting as long as I can get the car dialed in with the 275s...
-Bill

[benebob]

She'll have her first cart before the age of 5 (3 years from now). I think she's allowed to start racing em at 6. What will be interting at the challenge? How much you get to think about with that extra 8 seconds you spend on the coures?