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  #1  
Old 02-25-2002, 04:55 PM
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ensteele ensteele is offline
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Question Additives

I have been wondering about the use of additives. Are these something that should be used or not? Like injector cleaner, or other additives that are added to your fuel. What about additives for oil, transmission fluid, or power steering fluid for better lubrication? I know some have mentioned the use of a leak stop for oil or fluids. A friend put a product into his transmission, and it seemed to cure all of its ills. If you do use them, what are the products and what are they used for? Just wondering. Thanks

Snake oil is a marvelous thing.
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  #2  
Old 02-25-2002, 08:50 PM
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My experience has been that some are beneficial if your problem fits into their niche of ability. Bar's Leaks is the best at sealing cooling systems, for example, but it won't cure a blown head gasket. The 'drain the oil and drive away' stuff works, just about any oil will do the same - for about six miles (depending on load, wear, clearances, etc. - YMMV.)

There are some friction modifiers for transmissions that not only work, but are required additives (in separate bottles.) Antifreeze doesn't lose its ability to not freeze, but its additive package that provides anti-corrosion qualities does wear out (sacrificially.) If the coolant is clean a simple bottle of additive is all that's required.

An old partner of mine went to school on the Caterpillar plan and a great deal of his education was centered around lubrication. They did myriad tests of lube additives, including everyone's favorite 'Slippery 49 + 1". In a nutshell nothing of noteworthiness occured. They came to the conclusion that it's damn difficult to make a teflon based product (PTFE) stick to something that's already coated with oil.

Injector cleaners are something that can be avoided by doing a few things: Buy gas from brand-name, high-volume retailers. Don't run on the bottom of the tank, cars run better full than empty. Not because the car will be sucking from the bottom, it does that no matter what. Because all petroleum products are hygroscopic, in other words they attract moisture. The lower you allow your tank to get, the more humid air that is sitting on top of it. The humidity is eventually absorbed by the fuel and all kinds of rude things result.

The only additive for power steering that I can think of is leak sealer. Most leak sealers for hydraulic devices are trying to work by softening heat-hardened seals. Once in a great while they may work (remember the niche) but what happens to the old, decrepit pressure hose that the stuff is running through? Softening it up is probably the last thing you want to do.

Same principle applies for transmission restoring additives - soften up old hard seals and rings and restore working pressures. Some are friction additives to give worn out clutches and bands a little more 'bite'. Hopefully they won't allow you to really tear things up inside before (when all the friction material is gone and running metal-to-metal) it heads for the happy hunting grounds.


Best bet is to do the service the OEM recommends, at their 'severe' levels. Oil changes at 3000 miles is a must. Oils just can't maintain their level of quality beyond that point. Synthetics can go many, many more miles without breaking down, but the problem for them lies in contaminants. Combustion ash and acids, moisture, fuel comtinants, etc. cannot be filtered, so the only way to remove them is by changing the oil.

Synthetics are great, but way too expensive. If you want more protection than the base mineral oils (and the last I heard was that Kendall GT-1 was still the best, with the other name brands in a clump not too far behind) try a synthetic blend, such as Dura-Blend, a 50-50 mix. It's less expensive and another up-side is as a 50-50 mix it's not as likely to seep past older seals.

Sorry for the filibuster, I get carried away occasionally

Beav
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  #3  
Old 02-25-2002, 09:52 PM
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Bravo!

A cup of dirt in synthetic oil is the same as a cup of dirt in Havoline. What the filter doesn't catch in either case is going to hurt your engine.

Someday I must write my "filibuster" on gas, oil, refineries, marketing and other stuff - from an ex-petroleum engineer.
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Old 02-25-2002, 10:02 PM
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Re: Bravo!

Quote:
Originally posted by deadeye95
A cup of dirt in synthetic oil is the same as a cup of dirt in Havoline. What the filter doesn't catch in either case is going to hurt your engine.

Someday I must write my "filibuster" on gas, oil, refineries, marketing and other stuff - from an ex-petroleum engineer.
As in "crank up the ethanol until you start getting complaints, then back it down a point or two"?

I'd be interested.

Beav
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  #5  
Old 02-25-2002, 11:28 PM
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Go to the store, look at all the additives and slowly walk away. They are bad for your car. I am a living proof. I have killed a lot of things in cars that way.

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  #6  
Old 02-26-2002, 01:25 AM
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snake oil

Thank you for the great responses. I change oil at 3,000 miles no mater what the oil looks like. And I guess it goes without saying - but I will anyway - I change the filter too. I know some people don't change the filter, but change the oil. My feeling is that if you don't change the filter - don't bother changing the oil. I have always felt that if you do the recommended OEM service, additives are not necessary unless you have a leak in the radiator or cooling system. I just didn't know where you guys stood on this issue, and I guess my feelings were right. It is great that there is so much expertise here, and we can get so many opinions on things. I will be interested in what the other long post about petroleum products from Deadeye95 will be.
The previous owner did not use synthetic oil in the transmission, but changed 2 to 3 quarts each time he changed oil. He said that he could not afford to do this if he used synthetic oil, and thought that changing that amount each time would be better than using synthetic oil. I need to decide what I will do now. I am leaning towards Redline for the transmission because of the tolerance for additional heat. I am also installing a temp gauge for the transmission to keep an eye on the temp. Thanks

Earl (I'm going to go squeeze another snake now)

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[COLOR=”silver”]1992 Tri Color L[/COLOR] ~45K (06/91) #2430
1992 Dark Teal LS-L ~184K (05/91) #0739
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1992 Pearl LS-L ~103K (06/91) #1680
1992 Pearl LS-L ~151K (06/91) #2229
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1994 Laguna Blue Pearl LSi ~144K (10/93) #1484
1994 Laguna Blue Pearl LSi ~68K (10/93) #1525
1994 Barcelona Red LSi ~46K (02/94) #2624
1994 Pearl LSi ~41K (12/93) #1961
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1996 Polo Green LSi ~95K (03/96) #872
1997 Bordeaux Pearl LSi ~55K (08/96) #097
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  #7  
Old 02-26-2002, 09:05 AM
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Re: snake oil

Quote:
Originally posted by ensteele93
Thank you for the great responses. I change oil at 3,000 miles no mater what the oil looks like. And I guess it goes without saying - but I will anyway - I change the filter too. I know some people don't change the filter, but change the oil. My feeling is that if you don't change the filter - don't bother changing the oil. I have always felt that if you do the recommended OEM service, additives are not necessary unless you have a leak in the radiator or cooling system. I just didn't know where you guys stood on this issue, and I guess my feelings were right. It is great that there is so much expertise here, and we can get so many opinions on things. I will be interested in what the other long post about petroleum products from Deadeye95 will be.
The previous owner did not use synthetic oil in the transmission, but changed 2 to 3 quarts each time he changed oil. He said that he could not afford to do this if he used synthetic oil, and thought that changing that amount each time would be better than using synthetic oil. I need to decide what I will do now. I am leaning towards Redline for the transmission because of the tolerance for additional heat. I am also installing a temp gauge for the transmission to keep an eye on the temp. Thanks

Earl (I'm going to go squeeze another snake now)


Earl, there are those with the opinion that, if possible, it would be better to change the filter and not the oil, than to change the oil and not change the filter. Since that's not really the most convenient way to do things, it is absolutely necessary to change the filter when you change the oil -- no doubt about it.

Also, if you do get Redline, remember, there's the "regular" and the "high temp." So, make sure you order and get what you want. In other words, don't just call up and order "Redline synthetic ATF" and then, be disappointed when you don't get the "high temp." I know you probably know this, but, I've known things and forgotten them at critical moments.
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  #8  
Old 02-26-2002, 12:34 PM
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What's the best place to get Redline High temp ATF from? As far as price?

Thanks
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  #9  
Old 02-26-2002, 03:59 PM
Dgf
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Redline atf

Best price I've found is www.myoilshop.com Redline hi-temp ATF is $7 a qt.
Enter dealer code 675421 to save another 10%.
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  #10  
Old 03-05-2002, 09:39 AM
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Synthetic "Blends"

Only this comment, as I, too, am a firm believer in frequent oil & filter changes AND the use of synthetic oils: the so-called synthetic "Blends" are, indeed, only part synthetic... Maybe 20-25% synthetic (if that!). Do the math: if they were 50% the mfgrs. would charge at least 50% (plus some % + $) the price of the 100% stuff. I have no doubt what-so-ever that blending is superior to conventional oil and is the smart way to go with oil change intervals in the 3-3.5k mile range. I use 1 quart of 100% synthetic with 5 quarts of the same mfgrs. "blend" OR 2 quarts synthetic with 4 quarts of the same mfgrs. conventional oil. I bought 4 cases of Havoline 10W-30 semi-synthetic on sale at $.41 per quart last time it was available. This works very well in my SVX, a Ford 3/4 ton with a carb 460 & in my wife's Mercedes V8, too. None has ever even had the heads off, much less needed attention in the bottom end. I would like to hear more about synthetic trans fluid choices & prices...
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Old 03-05-2002, 11:52 AM
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IMHO

The only bad part is that you're subjecting yourself to additive build-up. Too much of a good thing is not always so good, read: More's Law.

No, I'm not a chemist or refiner but I have been given some insights over the years. I try to make mainstream recommendations as they are inherently safer and shouldn't cause anybody undue problems or expense. All refiners and automakers recommend NOT mixing brands, and most prefer staying with one brand, oil change to oil change. This is also why additives are not recommended.

For the record, and my money, oil changes at 3,000 miles with a good, brand name oil will satisfy the needs of most everyone. Those that have special needs due to extended periods of idling, short trips, high humidity, dusty and/or any number of other factors should adjust their intervals accordingly.

For those with special needs or want to add additional protection synthetics are an excellent choice. However 'blending' your own home brew may be asking for trouble. Who but the chemist knows if the synthetic has the same additive package as the conventional oil? The 'math' may come up short, then again it may come up way too long. For a few pennies why bother?

As always, YMMV. If we all liked the same things we'd all be standing in one heckuva long line.

Beav
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Old 03-06-2002, 06:35 PM
STORMINORMAN STORMINORMAN is offline
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You are 100% correct about "different strokes"! I actually checked with both Havoline & Mobil whose engineering/techie type replies were both in agreement that mixing between brands might not be that advisable, but that mixing within any product line is acceptable as their 100% synthetics will be ok with any oil of the same SAE designation, i.e. SG 10W-30 conventional is ok with SG 5W-50 100% synthetic. They actually claim the 100% will work with any brand oil of the same or lesser designation: SJ grade works with SH, SG, etc. Does not magically change or upgrade the other oil's designation, though.

What you also don't change or modify is the actual grade: you get 25% synthetic 5W-50 with 75% 10W-30 when you mix 1 quart with three, not some kind of 7W-35... This makes sense in that you don't change the molecules, just the mixture.

I just think it is silly to put in $30 worth of oil for only 3000 miles, but that the higher heat resistance and cleaning properties of the synthetic formulation provides a meaningful measure of increased protection. With as stout a bottom end as these babies have, better lubrication and an effective additive package should make for long engine life.
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