Thinking the 3.3 has got to go...

[odepaj]

Originally Posted by Bonestock

Don't forget you have to do something about that crappy 4EAT.

Originally Posted by odepaj

To weigh the options a little better, I present you with this:

A Turbo SVX w/EG33 and 5-6mt:

• 5-6mt swap
• Built EG33 that will be $$$
• Custom turbo system

A Turbo SVX w/EJ## and 5-6mt:

• 5-6mt swap
• Motor swap w/wiring that will be hell and $$$
• Custom turbo system

Keep in mind that is a very basic list on both sides.





Dustin

Originally Posted by Bonestock

Odepaj by the time you built the 3.3 and boosted it I think you'd still end up spending more money.

The "boosting" part of this comment will be utilized with an EG or EJ motor. It doesn't matter.

As for building the EG33, that cost can be swapped out with "engine swap wiring".

Originally Posted by svxistentialist

Why is everybody saying you need a custom turbo system? Why re-invent the wheelbarrow? Use the system from the 2.5T and use a nice twin scroll turbo.

Joe

Originally Posted by odepaj

Don't forget the fact that the SVX engine bay is completely different from a WRX and that you will still be designing the turbo piping from scratch.

So turboing an EG33 or an EJ motor in an SVX engine bay will be the same. (Minus obviously the headers and TB design).

The space gained from an EG-to-EJ motor swap is all in front of the motor.

The stock EJ turbo piping will not fit in the SVX engine bay. (Ask me how I know if you'd like.)




It might indeed be cheaper to swap an EJ series motor in and go about your plan that way. Though I guarantee an EG33 would make more power and be an all-around better motor in an SVX.

But like you and I have already said, no one here is gonna stop you. You came asking questions, I gave you answers.



Dustin

[svxistentialist]

Originally Posted by odepaj

The space gained from an EG-to-EJ motor swap is all in front of the motor.

The stock EJ turbo piping will not fit in the SVX engine bay. (Ask me how I know if you'd like.)

It might indeed be cheaper to swap an EJ series motor in and go about your plan that way. Though I guarantee an EG33 would make more power and be an all-around better motor in an SVX.

But like you and I have already said, no one here is gonna stop you. You came asking questions, I gave you answers.

Dustin

I don't doubt you for a second Dustin. You know your stuff and tell it like it is.

You could actually say how you know here, and enlighten the discussion Bonestock came asking questions to which you have experience and answers.

Regards liberating space in the engine bay, might it be possible to lengthen the prop shaft and move the engine/gearbox unit forward just a few centimetres, enough to accommodate the turbo plumbing? Just thinking out loud here.

Joe

[SilverSpear]

Originally Posted by odepaj

Though I guarantee an EG33 would make more power and be an all-around better motor in an SVX.

Dustin

Dustin, I highly respect what you said and as Joe said no doubt in your knowledge in all this, but I will let myself say this here even though I might get a slap on the wrist for this, honesty intended:

I helped a friend of mine few years ago pick up a 99 WRX (my favorite WRX) in mint condition. The engine compression was at 93% efficient, 1 owner and meticulously driven and pampered. They used to call this serie a GT-Turbo rather than WRX btw.

I had my SVX, lightened (removed the metal bumpers, fiberglass instead, lightweight racing seats, no spare tyre, light FB hood, etc...). I had few mods like a trans cooler, 1V4 Chip and and my famous external K&N in a copper box.

We were driving at 50mph and ready to take the highway, he called me and was curious to know what the SVX can do. Head to head we pulled together, kept the same pace for around 20 seconds when I started to pull on him and my car kept pulling without him able to keep the pace. Well it was somehow close but that was coming from a completely stock 99WRX with EJ20.

Bonestock will be attempting on an EJ258 (2009?) engine, which is the STi's. 220hp compared to 300hp there is definitely an advantage here of 40% more. But two issues come in question here:

1- Since the SVX is heavier than the STi. How will TURBO LAG be?
2- What will the true power differences be between my friend's WRX with EJ20 engine and a stock/heavy SVX with EJ258 engine?

If it was me doing this, I would look into a modified EZ swap instead (shorter/lighter/more powerful )

[Bonestock]

Originally Posted by SilverSpear

Dustin, I highly respect what you said and as Joe said no doubt in your knowledge in all this, but I will let myself say this here even though I might get a slap on the wrist for this, honesty intended:

I helped a friend of mine few years ago pick up a 99 WRX (my favorite WRX) in mint condition. The engine compression was at 93% efficient, 1 owner and meticulously driven and pampered. They used to call this serie a GT-Turbo rather than WRX btw.

I had my SVX, lightened (removed the metal bumpers, fiberglass instead, lightweight racing seats, no spare tyre, light FB hood, etc...). I had few mods like a trans cooler, 1V4 Chip and and my famous external K&N in a copper box.

We were driving at 50mph and ready to take the highway, he called me and was curious to know what the SVX can do. Head to head we pulled together, kept the same pace for around 20 seconds when I started to pull on him and my car kept pulling without him able to keep the pace. Well it was somehow close but that was coming from a completely stock 99WRX with EJ20.

Bonestock will be attempting on an EJ258 (2009?) engine, which is the STi's. 220hp compared to 300hp there is definitely an advantage here of 40% more. But two issues come in question here:

1- Since the SVX is heavier than the STi. How will TURBO LAG be?
2- What will the true power differences be between my friend's WRX with EJ20 engine and a stock/heavy SVX with EJ258 engine?

If it was me doing this, I would look into a modified EZ swap instead (shorter/lighter/more powerful )

1) Weight has nothing to do with lag. And personally I always read about the infamous lag on NASIOC. Oh it will be laggy oh noes...lag! hell anything would be considered laggy compared to the stock WRX tiny turbo. But then, I dont consider a TD05H 20G equipped EJ20 laggy nor do I think any STi with a stock VF laggy by any means.

2) Not sure on this one... I dont have much experience with the pre 02 WRX's. My friend had a 95 WRX wagon (jdm import) and I wouldnt call it slow but its all relative I guess.

New exhaust, DP and FMIC piping are simple to fab. Hell I may even look into the new Legacy front placement to free up some space if the original WRX/STi area is a bit too tight to fit a proper 3" DP.

Dustin:
How will wiring add to the cost? Its all time and manual labor. And one I am not looking forward to. I hate stripping wiring harness and tracing wires out of FSM's. Meh!

You cant take the boosted part out of the 3.3 since you still have to add it. Since its stock on the EJ its money I get to bank toward buying the engine, trans and diff.

But you do have to add in EM if you are going to boost the 3.3, no?

And I'll take your bet on that. I believe the EJ to be the better and easier engine to build over the 3.3. Lets have and interwebz dyno sheet contest!!! I am teh fast3r!

On a serious note, if you do have information on the EJ swap, why not share it?

Originally Posted by kwren

With your Résumé I am surprised that, considering the HP and the weight of the SVX, you wouldn't have a clue what you were getting into.

Keith

Yep thats EXACTLY how I would describe myself, COMPLETELY CLUELESS. I dont know how I make it day-2-day.

[StatGSR]

Originally Posted by Bonestock

And I'll take your bet on that. I believe the EJ to be the better and easier engine to build over the 3.3. Lets have and interwebz dyno sheet contest!!! I am teh fast3r!

i wouldn't be so sure......

Tony Rigoli has/had a pretty fast eg33 powered car.....

Vehicle: V5 2 Door STI
Engine: EG33 (Stage 34cyl spec)
Power: 768hp
Best E.T: 7.795 @ 176.93mph
Induction: Garrett GT55, Custom MOOD Motorsport Intercooler, Stock EG33 plenum, 12 x 1600cc injectors, Enderle 110 mechanical fuel pumpBillet fuel rails, stock throttle body's
Internals: Forged pistons, billet conrods, copper head gaskets, O-Ringed head & block, TRP 14mm Headstuds, Stage 3 heads, 4 stage dry sump system
Ignition: Microtech X6 with Bosch coil pack
Exhaust: 6" Straight through
Engine Management: Microtech LT-10
Boost Control: HKS 60mm Wastegate, Turbosmart eBoost 60psi
Drivetrain:
Clutch: Custom twin plate
Transmission: Lenco CS3 5 Speed
Diff: Ford 9", Moser 35 spline axles, Harrop alloy center and carrier, full spool, standard subaru front diff with PPG LSD, front STI shafts



frankly i dont care what you do, it would be cool to see either way, i wont be one to castrate you over killing an original SVX (i just stole the motor from a runner myself and have another shell that will be stripped),but idk why you wouldnt stick with the 3.3. it has and will continue to have better low end power than any 2.5 + turbo will. and as far as cost i dont see how you think the 2.5 is so much cheaper.

you need a custom pipe set either way (for turbo, dp, intercooler)

You need a good 5 speed or 6 speed either way so those costs dont matter.

you need EM for the 3.3 while you could have free EM with a WRX/STI ECU, but then again you will have wiring merge costs (or time spent if doing it yourself) but in the world of econ, doing it yourself still costs alot of money.

so really what you have is the cost of buying a 2.5 turbo motor, or the cost of building up the 3.3 a little to handle the extra power saftly. i still havnt noticed if you listed any power goals or not, but the 3.3 will always have the better powerband, and in a chunky car like the svx it would be nice to have a little grunt at idle.

now dont get all bent out of shape cause im another one thats all crazy about the eg33, i can completely see why it would be nice to have a motor that is so easy to buy parts for. i just fail to see why your so quick to rule out the 3.3. cause your comparisons of costs dont really lean one way over another.

i might have left out some other points i was thinking about, but if i did i will get to them later.

good luck with the build sir!

[kwren]

Originally Posted by Bonestock

1)
Yep thats EXACTLY how I would describe myself, COMPLETELY CLUELESS. I dont know how I make it day-2-day.

Everyone goofs at times and I am reasonably sure you have some good qualities! Your willingness to share your faults on 5 pages of this thread is admirable.

Keith

[svxistentialist]

By the look of that spec on the Tony Rigoli engine, I can't imagine that was done for the price of an engine swap.

An EG33 being turbocharged has too high a CR in standard trim for safe boosting, so the reality is the EG33 will need engine mods to yield good safe turbo power. So that means it will have to be a built or a partly built engine, and this costs time and money.

Dropping in an EJ25T engine, it's already built, you just have to sort the wiring and management and build the pipes and intercooler.

I've got nothing against the six cylinder engine, in fact I love it, but I can see the cold and correct logic of what he is proposing here. Even looking at it from the conservation of the SVX slant, once it is done and documented it is another way in which SVX cars can be kept on the road and give driver satisfaction. What's not to like?

Also I don't accept that the SVX is quite as lardy as most people seem to think it is. The reason it refuses to shift a$$ is because of the sluggish gearbox we have, not because the car weighs the same as a Rolls Royce or a bus or an elephant.

For the record the listed kerb weigh of the SVX in the WSM is 1610 Kgs

For the record the listed kerb weight of the last Impreza saloon is 1495 Kgs
[not the current humpty dumpy thingy, that's so ugly I don't care what weight it is ]

Essentially the SVX is around one passenger [OK a heavy passenger] heavier than the supposedly sporty Impreza.

So no more BS about the SVX being heavy, OK?

Joe

[Bonestock]

Good points and I didnt take it wrong by any means. For your example, the guy took one of the lightest shells on the Subaru scene (not sure if the WRX RA is lighter) and stuffed a larger displacement motor in it and went from there. While the results are impressive, they are not what I would consider popular nor typical. Considering thats an all out race car and nothing like we are talking about.

The EJ has loads of aftermarket support and most of which is OTS. EG is pretty much bespoke, right?

The EJ swap will free up some space but I think at the end of the day the weight will be a wash due to the turbo, plumbing, FMIC etc.

EM, ECU flash or ROM raider and a tactrix cable will sort that out. OS is ... well, free.

I just think it will make a fun DD/Toy and a nice project. Actually my closest friends are trying to talk me out of it due to "that car is just too nice". Funny, I thought they would be all over it. One is trying to talk me into getting another fiero to do another series II or III 3800sc swap. Another is telling me to go buy that G8 GT or CTSv I have been itching to try. I dunno to be honest.

Unfortunately(?) I am one of those ppl that if told not to do or something cant/shouldn't be done with a car, it just encourages me to do it anyway. Way back in the early 90's I got into a heated debate on the StarQuest forum about dropping a SBC into a 88 Starion ESi-R. I got much the same "dont do it" replies. 6mo later I was driving it and was pretty much an outcast on there afterwards. LOL
Then it was on to V8 swapped FC's and one FD. I cant tell you how much grief I got for swapping a FC turbo II convert anniversary!!!

Starion:






87GT w/ 4.9 caddy v8:


before

after

[Bonestock]

Originally Posted by svxistentialist

Essentially the SVX is around one passenger [OK a heavy passenger].


Joe

Oi! You calling me fat?

Originally Posted by kwren

Everyone goofs at times and I am reasonably sure you have some good qualities! Your willingness to share your faults on 5 pages of this thread is admirable.

Keith

Yeah its pretty hard when I had to face the facts and buy velcro strap shoes because I just couldnt figure out how to tie them being so clueless and all.

[Sean486]

Love that Starion!!

[Bonestock]

BTW if you want to see more swaps...

Here is my 88GT with 80k miles that I swapped a series II 3800sc. Yeah I got loads of friendly jokes about $2k worth of RPF1's on it from my friends! LOL I did this swap almost 3yrs ago when we moved back to the USA. Now thats one car I wish I hadn't of sold.

http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b86/BVM03/Fiero/

[odepaj]

I had a really long post all nice and written up and my computer froze.

This one will be shorter.

Originally Posted by svxistentialist

I don't doubt you for a second Dustin. You know your stuff and tell it like it is.

You could actually say how you know here, and enlighten the discussion Bonestock came asking questions to which you have experience and answers.

Regards liberating space in the engine bay, might it be possible to lengthen the prop shaft and move the engine/gearbox unit forward just a few centimetres, enough to accommodate the turbo plumbing? Just thinking out loud here.

Joe

This is a picture I got while I was helping a friend pull the motor on his '06 STi, after we had the motor out he took a few weeks to collect the parts he needed to build it. That left me with an engineless STi in my driveway to do my bidding with.

Needless to say, there just isn't enough room for the stock piping. Not to mention I'm pretty sure our subframe would get in the way of the uppipe/header.



Sadly that is the only picture I have anymore, the rest were on my phone and it got tossed into the ocean.

I'll also add, I spent last fall converting a 2001 2.5RS auto into a manual. So I got to see that space from the other side.

Originally Posted by Bonestock

New exhaust, DP and FMIC piping are simple to fab. Hell I may even look into the new Legacy front placement to free up some space if the original WRX/STi area is a bit too tight to fit a proper 3" DP.

Dustin:
How will wiring add to the cost? Its all time and manual labor. And one I am not looking forward to. I hate stripping wiring harness and tracing wires out of FSM's. Meh!

You cant take the boosted part out of the 3.3 since you still have to add it. Since its stock on the EJ its money I get to bank toward buying the engine, trans and diff.

But you do have to add in EM if you are going to boost the 3.3, no?

And I'll take your bet on that. I believe the EJ to be the better and easier engine to build over the 3.3. Lets have and interwebz dyno sheet contest!!! I am teh fast3r!

On a serious note, if you do have information on the EJ swap, why not share it?

I actually think the front-mount turbo would be a good idea. You could possibly utilize more of the stock hot-side piping.

On the "boosted" part, I meant more along the lines of the turbo/piping. Either engine is going to require this and the piping will end up being similar, no matter what engine is in the car.

As for wiring, thats my mistake. I thought you would be taking it somewhere. I guarantee it will be a pain to merge the harnesses and retaining things like the A/C controls and speed sensitive wipers/steering is going to be pure hell.

Of course EM will be needed, but LAN's st2v7 has been running in Phils (Phast SVX) car for a few years now with no problems and is a pretty cheap cost when compared to the mental cost of merging harnesses

Numbers wise, if you put a turbo'd EG33 next to a turbo'd EJ##. Pound for pound the EG is going to make more power, more efficiently. It'll spin a larger turbo and have less lag. Don't forget if you build it with a slightly lower compression ratio than stock, it'll still retain a good amount of off-boost torque as well.

Through all of this, I actually would love to see an EJ swap into an SVX. I'm literally just trying to give you the other side of the coin to look at before you get deep into things.



Dustin

[Bonestock]

I understand where you are coming from, I do. But building an EG, boosting it and then swapping in a manual trans... where is the fun in that?

[odepaj]

Originally Posted by Bonestock

I understand where you are coming from, I do. But building an EG, boosting it and then swapping in a manual trans... where is the fun in that?

Being one of the few turbo'd Subaru H6s/EG33s.

Also being the mirrored setup of a 911 turbo

[Bonestock]

Why be one of the few when I could be the only one with an EJ swap?