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  #16  
Old 04-03-2006, 09:18 AM
Bipa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigershark
It was humor. The one trait no liberal has. Lighten up. Since Democrats in this country are fond of throwing around exagerated hyperbole, Hitler was seen as "liberal and progressive" in his reform of Germany during the intial rise in power, circa 1934, as stated by the uber-liberal himself, Neville Chamberlin. History is an intresting phenomenon.
Humour. An interesting topic. You say it is "one trait no liberal has." I assume you mean that humourously?

Perhaps what is missing most from the whole current political debate is simply that people have actually lost the ability to debate. Instead of trying to convince one another through reason and logic, the conversation degenerates into name-calling, labelling, and questions of morality and belief.

How about trying to discuss a topic without any reference to established political parties or even using words like "conservative" or "liberal". I would love to see a debate about the actual issues without seeing it degenerate into a quarrel over which person has made more mistakes in his life.

Making a broad and sweeping statement which everyone knows to be false adds nothing except bad feelings. So why not stop it? Not every liberal is a drug-taking beatnik living off of government hand-outs. Not every conservative rides around in a pickup truck with a shot gun mounted on the ceiling and yelling profanities out the window at visible minorities.

I have yet to find a single self-avowed conservative who doesn't believe that some of the ideas coming out of socialism are actually necessary and good. I also have never found a self-avowed socialist or even communist who doesn't believe in some of the tenents of capitalism.

Using words like conservative and liberal can actually lead ignorant people into a lot a trouble without even realizing it. I assume folks here know that in Russia today, the conservatives are those folks who are sticking with the old communist ideas, while the liberals are the ones advocating for more democracy? Quite the opposite of the typical US view, where conservatives try to portray themselves as the defenders of demoracy and attempt to paint liberals as socialists and closet communists.

Yet both the Russian view, and the US view are essentially correct, even though they seem at first glance to contradict themselves. It all goes back to the definitions of the words.

And that's why it is so important that the actual definitions be well understood by everyone taking part in the conversation. If your world view is simply that conservatives are good and liberals are bad, then in effect you are backing the old Communists in Russia who want a return to Leninism.
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  #17  
Old 04-03-2006, 09:18 AM
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Saddam killed more then 300. Don't know where you got that number, unless that's the number they can prove he had a direct hand in ordering death when he was done with them in the rape and torture rooms. The Kurds lost thousands from Saddams poision gas attacks. Gas provided to Iraq from france against in-place international treaties. I don't forget either. I don't agree with everything Bush has done, but hindsight is always 20/20.
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  #18  
Old 04-03-2006, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigershark
Saddam killed more then 300. Don't know where you got that number, unless that's the number they can prove he had a direct hand in ordering death when he was done with them in the rape and torture rooms. The Kurds lost thousands from Saddams poision gas attacks. Gas provided to Iraq from france against in-place international treaties. I don't forget either. I don't agree with everything Bush has done, but hindsight is always 20/20.

we'd be better off with Kerry - he'd continue negotiating with terrorists while they bombed our cities.
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  #19  
Old 04-03-2006, 11:27 AM
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Electrophil Electrophil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigershark
Saddam killed more then 300. Don't know where you got that number, unless that's the number they can prove he had a direct hand in ordering death when he was done with them in the rape and torture rooms. The Kurds lost thousands from Saddams poision gas attacks. Gas provided to Iraq from france against in-place international treaties. I don't forget either. I don't agree with everything Bush has done, but hindsight is always 20/20.
It was 278, give or take a couple. The large scale gassing, they decided they couldn't prove. It happened of course, and Saddam definitely did it, but they couldn't prove a direct connection. These 278 were the result of an assasination attempt on Saddam, and they can prove he ordered the hits.

That gassing by the way happened in the 80's. We were still friends with Saddam then. He probably bought the gas from us. That may also have something to do with it.
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Is Bush in jail yet? (Looks frantically at watch, then back up) How about now? Now? Come onnnnnn...... Someone freeze me until January, this wait is killing me.
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  #20  
Old 04-03-2006, 11:44 AM
dcarrb dcarrb is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrophil
That gassing by the way happened in the 80's. We were still friends with Saddam then. He probably bought the gas from us. That may also have something to do with it.
Reminds me of something I read back when this mess started (paraphrased here):

Of course we know Iraq has weapons of mass destruction... we still have the sales receipts.

dcb
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  #21  
Old 04-03-2006, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bipa
Humour. An interesting topic. You say it is "one trait no liberal has." I assume you mean that humourously?

Perhaps what is missing most from the whole current political debate is simply that people have actually lost the ability to debate. Instead of trying to convince one another through reason and logic, the conversation degenerates into name-calling, labelling, and questions of morality and belief.

How about trying to discuss a topic without any reference to established political parties or even using words like "conservative" or "liberal". I would love to see a debate about the actual issues without seeing it degenerate into a quarrel over which person has made more mistakes in his life.

Making a broad and sweeping statement which everyone knows to be false adds nothing except bad feelings. So why not stop it? Not every liberal is a drug-taking beatnik living off of government hand-outs. Not every conservative rides around in a pickup truck with a shot gun mounted on the ceiling and yelling profanities out the window at visible minorities.

I have yet to find a single self-avowed conservative who doesn't believe that some of the ideas coming out of socialism are actually necessary and good. I also have never found a self-avowed socialist or even communist who doesn't believe in some of the tenents of capitalism.

Using words like conservative and liberal can actually lead ignorant people into a lot a trouble without even realizing it. I assume folks here know that in Russia today, the conservatives are those folks who are sticking with the old communist ideas, while the liberals are the ones advocating for more democracy? Quite the opposite of the typical US view, where conservatives try to portray themselves as the defenders of demoracy and attempt to paint liberals as socialists and closet communists.

Yet both the Russian view, and the US view are essentially correct, even though they seem at first glance to contradict themselves. It all goes back to the definitions of the words.

And that's why it is so important that the actual definitions be well understood by everyone taking part in the conversation. If your world view is simply that conservatives are good and liberals are bad, then in effect you are backing the old Communists in Russia who want a return to Leninism.
I would expect something like this from liberal!

(Just kidding Bipa, ya know I love you like a sister!! )
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Is Bush in jail yet? (Looks frantically at watch, then back up) How about now? Now? Come onnnnnn...... Someone freeze me until January, this wait is killing me.
Update: 09 January, and still not in jail! Wassup??

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  #22  
Old 04-03-2006, 12:08 PM
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Electrophil Electrophil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcarrb
Reminds me of something I read back when this mess started (paraphrased here):

Of course we know Iraq has weapons of mass destruction... we still have the sales receipts.

dcb
I remember this! There also used to be a fake sales receipt floating around signed by Rumsfield with that picture of him shaking Saddam's hand at the bottom. Funny as all get out!
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Is Bush in jail yet? (Looks frantically at watch, then back up) How about now? Now? Come onnnnnn...... Someone freeze me until January, this wait is killing me.
Update: 09 January, and still not in jail! Wassup??

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  #23  
Old 04-03-2006, 01:13 PM
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It's disconcerting to remember that the U.S. government was all too happy to arm Saddam and his henchmen when they were at war with Iran, ditto the Taliban (remember them?) when they were whipping Soviet butt in Afganistan. Our tax dollars at work.

dcb
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  #24  
Old 04-03-2006, 01:20 PM
Bipa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrophil
I remember this! ...
Do you also remember the scandal that came out last year when it was revealed that the US had itself used "chemical weapons" (according to its own definition as used when accusing Saddam)?

Q: When is a chemical weapon not a chemical weapon?
A: Depends on whether it is Saddam or the U.S. that is using it.

No, really... the whole thing was a debate over white phosphorus. In an article in the Times of London, on Nov 17th, 2005, titled "Phosphorus was used for Fallujah bombs, admits US," it's described how the White House finally had to change its story and admit that it was using white phosphorus in bombs as a weapon and not just using it to illuminate enemy positions at night.

Perhaps this story didn't get much play in the US, but I certainly was hearing about it from Canadian and British news sources. The BBC story: White phosphorus: weapon on the edge describes how it was actually bloggers who uncovered an article published in the Mar/Apr US Army's Field Artillery Magazine (page 26) that stated clearly that it had been used as a weapon during the attack on Falluja in November 2004.

Normally, the use of white phosphorus wouldn't be classified with the more deadlier chemical weapons, except for the fact that back in 1995, the White House lumped it in with all the rest when accusing Saddam. You can see an example in the now declassified report, partially titled: SUBJ: IIR 2 243 1050 91/POSSIBLE USE OF PHOSPHOROUS CHEMICAL WEAPONS BY IRAQ IN KURDISH AREAS ALONG THE IRAQI-TURKISH-IRANIAN BORDERS; (the link will take you to the whole doc)

Perhaps a better explanation of the whole mess the White House found itself in, is in the Washinton Post article:"White Death" Is A Losing Strategy. It isn't so much the use of white phosphorus, but the handling of the PR by the Administration that is called into question. Denying until faced with evidence, and only then changing your story is never a good move to inspire confidence. People wonder about what else you might be hiding, even if there's nothing else there.

In the end, we contemplate the words of Bush himself, when he said back in October, 2001: We must always ask ourselves not only what is legal, but what is right. There is no goal of government worth accomplishing if it cannot be accomplished with integrity.

The issue here wasn't only about whether white phosphorus was legal, but also about whether it was right. Regardless, the same rules of use should apply to every army out there, no matter what flag the soldiers are wearing on their sleeves.
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  #25  
Old 04-03-2006, 01:22 PM
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Electrophil Electrophil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcarrb
It's disconcerting to remember that the U.S. government was all too happy to arm Saddam and his henchmen when they were at war with Iran, ditto the Taliban (remember them?) when they were whipping Soviet butt in Afganistan. Our tax dollars at work.

dcb
So true! We all but flat founded al Qaeda. And the funny thing is, we didn't like Usama then either according to what I've read. The enemy of my.......

Sigh...
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Is Bush in jail yet? (Looks frantically at watch, then back up) How about now? Now? Come onnnnnn...... Someone freeze me until January, this wait is killing me.
Update: 09 January, and still not in jail! Wassup??

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  #26  
Old 04-03-2006, 01:31 PM
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Electrophil Electrophil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bipa
Do you also remember the scandal that came out last year when it was revealed that the US had itself used "chemical weapons" (according to its own definition as used when accusing Saddam)?

Q: When is a chemical weapon not a chemical weapon?
A: Depends on whether it is Saddam or the U.S. that is using it.

No, really... the whole thing was a debate over white phosphorus. In an article in the Times of London, on Nov 17th, 2005, titled "Phosphorus was used for Fallujah bombs, admits US," it's described how the White House finally had to change its story and admit that it was using white phosphorus in bombs as a weapon and not just using it to illuminate enemy positions at night.

Perhaps this story didn't get much play in the US, but I certainly was hearing about it from Canadian and British news sources. The BBC story: White phosphorus: weapon on the edge describes how it was actually bloggers who uncovered an article published in the Mar/Apr US Army's Field Artillery Magazine (page 26) that stated clearly that it had been used as a weapon during the attack on Falluja in November 2004.

Normally, the use of white phosphorus wouldn't be classified with the more deadlier chemical weapons, except for the fact that back in 1995, the White House lumped it in with all the rest when accusing Saddam. You can see an example in the now declassified report, partially titled: SUBJ: IIR 2 243 1050 91/POSSIBLE USE OF PHOSPHOROUS CHEMICAL WEAPONS BY IRAQ IN KURDISH AREAS ALONG THE IRAQI-TURKISH-IRANIAN BORDERS; (the link will take you to the whole doc)

Perhaps a better explanation of the whole mess the White House found itself in, is in the Washinton Post article:"White Death" Is A Losing Strategy. It isn't so much the use of white phosphorus, but the handling of the PR by the Administration that is called into question. Denying until faced with evidence, and only then changing your story is never a good move to inspire confidence. People wonder about what else you might be hiding, even if there's nothing else there.

In the end, we contemplate the words of Bush himself, when he said back in October, 2001: We must always ask ourselves not only what is legal, but what is right. There is no goal of government worth accomplishing if it cannot be accomplished with integrity.

The issue here wasn't only about whether white phosphorus was legal, but also about whether it was right. Regardless, the same rules of use should apply to every army out there, no matter what flag the soldiers are wearing on their sleeves.
I remember the White phosphorus well. It wasn't too smart of a move, but they dug their own hole. Funny.... They did it again with Dubai. Either we are suppose to be scared insane about terrorism, or we aren't... Oh... I see, when it fits the re-election plans, be scared.. The threat is real!! When it fits a buddy's profits, blow off all that terrorism mumbo jumbo, we'll be ok!

Grumble.
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Is Bush in jail yet? (Looks frantically at watch, then back up) How about now? Now? Come onnnnnn...... Someone freeze me until January, this wait is killing me.
Update: 09 January, and still not in jail! Wassup??

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  #27  
Old 04-03-2006, 04:47 PM
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Nemesis Destiny Nemesis Destiny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Landshark
you're right - let's just give the terrorists a hug and ask them to stop being mean.
I was referring to your silly graphic with that one.

But if you want to talk about terrorists... looks like everyone else beat me to it. The Americans made that bed, and now they get to lay in it. History pretty much speaks for itself: http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/t...e_911_timeline
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  #28  
Old 04-03-2006, 06:20 PM
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Electrophil Electrophil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemesis Destiny
I was referring to your silly graphic with that one.

But if you want to talk about terrorists... looks like everyone else beat me to it. The Americans made that bed, and now they get to lay in it. History pretty much speaks for itself: http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/t...e_911_timeline

Americans? Nahh... We are sharing the blame with you. We now call ourselves the United Statiens. A third of this is now Canada's fault.
We sent a letter of condemnation to South America this morning.
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Is Bush in jail yet? (Looks frantically at watch, then back up) How about now? Now? Come onnnnnn...... Someone freeze me until January, this wait is killing me.
Update: 09 January, and still not in jail! Wassup??

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  #29  
Old 04-03-2006, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrophil
Americans? Nahh... We are sharing the blame with you. We now call ourselves the United Statiens. A third of this is now Canada's fault.
We sent a letter of condemnation to South America this morning.
LOL! Even if "liberals" (or whatever group that vaguery was referring to) don't have a sense of humour, it seems that apparently "centrists" do have one
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1994 LSI The legendary "Shotgun Slade" 110k mi and still going strong!

2005 Outback XT Limited 5MT, Obsidian Black Pearl, 211k km, daily driver.
1999 Mazda MX5 base 5MT, Twilight Blue Metallic, 152k km. "Twilight Sparkle" Summer daily driver!
2007 Honda CR-V, some awful shade of light green *yawn*

1992 LS-L Touring, Ebony Mica, 176k kms. Parts car. SCRAPPED.
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  #30  
Old 04-03-2006, 06:53 PM
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I'm in the process of reading that timeline you gave us. Extremely interesting!!
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Is Bush in jail yet? (Looks frantically at watch, then back up) How about now? Now? Come onnnnnn...... Someone freeze me until January, this wait is killing me.
Update: 09 January, and still not in jail! Wassup??

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