Tuning the EG33 without turbo

SilverSpear · #1 11-12-2004, 12:43 AM

guys I was thinking about the 96 BMW M3 engine (3.2L) , it is of similar size of the EG33 (approx) but has around 90 more hp. even though this engine runs atmospherically without any turbo... couldn' t the SVX engine be modified to run similar power ? the ECU 1 STAGE chip can help a lot, or the Motec device and I prefer to run on atmospherically tuned engine rather than turbocharged... any comments guys ?? can anyone provide us with the difference between those two engines ?

#2 11-12-2004, 01:05 AM

I have no clue what bmw does to its engines or how they tune it, but from the figures that have been posted the EG33 is extremely effcient and I doubt there's much you can do with the stock internals to up the power if you don't add forced induction.

What you could do though, is either bore it, or stroke it, or both....and I totally fogot where I was going.

SilverSpear · #3 11-12-2004, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by THAWA
I have no clue what bmw does to its engines or how they tune it, but from the figures that have been posted the EG33 is extremely effcient and I doubt there's much you can do with the stock internals to up the power if you don't add forced induction.

What you could do though, is either bore it, or stroke it, or both....and I totally fogot where I was going.

i've heard something about putting weights on the crank... so I want to know exactly what differenciate the M3 engine from the EG33... I was beaten by an M3... and i want revenge !!

#4 11-12-2004, 01:13 AM

All of the high-end BMW engines are variably timed. So, unless you can somehow adapt a VTEC-like setup, those incredible horsepower and torque ratings will never be reached without compromising either of the opposite (i.e. changing the cam grind to raise HP, but most likely lower torque as well).

SilverSpear · #5 11-12-2004, 01:24 AM

i know that, but I want to know what differenciate the internal parts of the BMW from our engine, it is of smaller size, yet very powerful... getting the Motec or something like it to run the ECU + modifying internals, can give better engine conduct rather than inserting turbo(s)

Gravija · #6 11-12-2004, 01:58 AM

might want to consider the weight difference (~200lbs) into the factor of speed.

RWD might make a difference, since we're normally set at 90/10 distribution right?

would gearing make a difference too?

deruvian appears to be right too...the m3forum lists the specs for each generation and it shows that the torque is lower than the horsepower by ~60hp

i think the BMW also makes more power because it revs higher (7900RPM is where it makes its max, torque max is around 4900). Our max hp is at 5400, torque at 4400...so maybe a freer revving engine would help here because we don't have much of a displacement advantage
our transmission doesn't seem to be the smartest thing ever either

SilverSpear · #7 11-12-2004, 02:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gravija
might want to consider the weight difference (~200lbs) into the factor of speed.

RWD might make a difference, since we're normally set at 90/10 distribution right?

would gearing make a difference too?

deruvian appears to be right too...the m3forum lists the specs for each generation and it shows that the torque is lower than the horsepower by ~60hp

i think the BMW also makes more power because it revs higher (7900RPM is where it makes its max, torque max is around 4900). Our max hp is at 5400, torque at 4400...so maybe a freer revving engine would help here because we don't have much of a displacement advantage
our transmission doesn't seem to be the smartest thing ever either

I don't care about the weight or power distribution but rather the engine in itself. the stage 1 chip can help a lot, or the MOTEC system but there are some internal differences... and the thing about torque, i guess if properly modified, the EG33 can have similar figures. the tranny is another story, inserting the 6speed STI or 3000GT, can help a lot.

Pure_Insanity8 · #8 11-12-2004, 03:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SilverSpear

I don't care about the weight or power distribution but rather the engine in itself. the stage 1 chip can help a lot, or the MOTEC system but there are some internal differences... and the thing about torque, i guess if properly modified, the EG33 can have similar figures. the tranny is another story, inserting the 6speed STI or 3000GT, can help a lot.

Less weight = better power to weight ratio = faster. There are plenty of engine differences. Its configuration (inline 6 vs. horizontally opposed 6), the bore and stroke, valves, heads, cam profiles (I didn't realize it had variable timing but this would be a HUGE advantage), independent throttle bodies for each cylinder (at least outside the US), higher compression ratio I believe,..., etc, etc, etc.. They are very different. The EG33 COULD be made to get similar power figures... but it would take a lot of custom work and is not worth it when forced induction would be easier... kinda.

The ECUtune chip helps a little, really, not THAT much... but no kind of computer tuning will get anywhere NEAR an M3's power output. The chip available from ECUtune is basically as good as reworking the software can do... NO more gains without serious mechanical modification. There is also NO reason to step up to a stand-alone system (MoTec) when nothing else fundamentally altered. It really won't do much better than our computer (tuned properly) will. That is for car that are seriously modified (like adding forced induction), or pieced together cars (extreme engine swaps), or vehicles made basically from scratch.

I think you could learn a lot from a basic engines course or something. It seems like you have been tending to reguritate things you have heard elsewhere (including from me)... and kind of, miscontruing what happens, or works, or whatever. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be mean. It is great that you're excited about mofiying the SVX (as I am). I just feel like some of the basic concepts, that I and some others have tried to explain, aren't really getting through.

SilverSpear · #9 11-12-2004, 03:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pure_Insanity8

Less weight = better power to weight ratio = faster. There are plenty of engine differences. Its configuration (inline 6 vs. horizontally opposed 6), the bore and stroke, valves, heads, cam profiles (I didn't realize it had variable timing but this would be a HUGE advantage), independent throttle bodies for each cylinder (at least outside the US), higher compression ratio I believe,..., etc, etc, etc.. They are very different. The EG33 COULD be made to get similar power figures... but it would take a lot of custom work and is not worth it when forced induction would be easier... kinda.

The ECUtune chip helps a little, really, not THAT much... but no kind of computer tuning will get anywhere NEAR an M3's power output. The chip available from ECUtune is basically as good as reworking the software can do... NO more gains without serious mechanical modification. There is also NO reason to step up to a stand-alone system (MoTec) when nothing else fundamentally altered. It really won't do much better than our computer (tuned properly) will. That is for car that are seriously modified (like adding forced induction), or pieced together cars (extreme engine swaps), or vehicles made basically from scratch.

I think you could learn a lot from a basic engines course or something. It seems like you have been tending to reguritate things you have heard elsewhere (including from me)... and kind of, miscontruing what happens, or works, or whatever. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be mean. It is great that you're excited about mofiying the SVX (as I am). I just feel like some of the basic concepts, that I and some others have tried to explain, aren't really getting through.

at least can we compare it with the porsche atmospheric boxer ?? I am not getting you in a mean way dear friend, but I am trying through these threads i am posting to find many ways to tune our EG33. i am just riggering a conversation to get the best results!!!

Pure_Insanity8 · #10 11-12-2004, 04:54 AM

LOL

I can't understand what the poop you're talking about sometimes, bud.

I'm guessing by atmospheric you mean naturally aspirated (as in not forced induction). I guess the EG33 is MORE similar to the Porches H6 engines (be it any variation of displacement). However, still very different where it counts... hence the big performance difference and price difference.

Personally, I just want to wait and see if any of the current forced induction projects pans out well.

SilverSpear · #11 11-12-2004, 05:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pure_Insanity8
LOL

I can't understand what the poop you're talking about sometimes, bud.

I'm guessing by atmospheric you mean naturally aspirated (as in not forced induction). I guess the EG33 is MORE similar to the Porches H6 engines (be it any variation of displacement). However, still very different where it counts... hence the big performance difference and price difference.

Personally, I just want to wait and see if any of the current forced induction projects pans out well.

as you wish buddy, over here we call it atmospheric... anyway, I will try to modify my engine keeping is naturally aspirated, because I am not convinced with the forced induction project. you cannot modify a stock engine into a turbo without total internal modification. I am not convinced and never will be until a supernatural aspect says otherwise... until then I will stick into modifying the engine as it is or I will find another 6cyl 3.0 outback professionally prepared with forced induction system...

Matthewmongan · #12 11-12-2004, 05:38 AM

hahaha i got drunk one time and asked my friend if he had a normaly asporated beverage. but yeah, all the motors you listed for comparison use veriable valve timing. the m3 even uses seporate throttle bodies and fuel maps for each cylinder. you cant do that with a subaru. subaru will slap a turbo on anything why should the svx be any diferent. personaly i like turbos better but i think that the supercharger would be better suted to our low end needs. slap on a blower and as ronco says set it and forget it. race the rice rockets all night long and show those punks "whos got a pair" (and im not talking about turbos or NO2 tanks).

SilverSpear · #13 11-12-2004, 05:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Matthewmongan
hahaha i got drunk one time and asked my friend if he had a normaly asporated beverage. but yeah, all the motors you listed for comparison use veriable valve timing. the m3 even uses seporate throttle bodies and fuel maps for each cylinder. you cant do that with a subaru. subaru will slap a turbo on anything why should the svx be any diferent. personaly i like turbos better but i think that the supercharger would be better suted to our low end needs. slap on a blower and as ronco says set it and forget it. race the rice rockets all night long and show those punks "whos got a pair" (and im not talking about turbos or NO2 tanks).

so even when drunk you like normally aspirated things !!!! hehe me too... you love turbos that's your choice, but you should think of fuel consumption before anything else. I am not saying that naturally aspirated (tuned) engines are waaaaaaay better, but rather little bit better... if you see the fuel consumption of an impreza turbo you would realize the fuel consumption of a turbo SVX... come on man, be realistic about it for a minute, a turbo impreza runs at around 80 miles/20L , SVX around 95 miles/20L. so guess what will happen to a turbo added SVX !! 70 ? =

#14 11-12-2004, 09:03 AM

Danny, don't have such little faith in the EG33's abilities to handle boost. The internals on it are no different than any of the other phase I engines, the closed deck blocks are phase I engines. Personally I think it could handle some boost with the correct control. It seems like you're afraid to take apart an engine. Not that it's a bad thing, but if you want to make some power you're going to have to. The one thing you should look for is lower comp pistons. I'm not sure if the angles of the valves are the same between the EG33 and EJ22 but if so (or if they're close enough to still keep in non-interference) you could go with stock EJ22T pistons. I'm fairly sure you could do that anyway but it might not keep the engine non-interference. Course you could always go with custom pistons to get the exact comp ratio you want.

As for fuel consumption, don't stay on boost all the time and you'll be better than before.

mbtoloczko · #15 11-12-2004, 09:05 AM

Gravija hit the nail on the head. The M3 motor is designed to make power to 7900 rpm. It most likely has higher lift, longer duration cams, and the intake and exhaust have been designed for those cams and rpm. You could try something like this on an EG33, but you'd have to totally rework the motor from the ground up. You'd easily spend as much money as you would spend on a turbo and not get as much HP or driveability.

Electronic engine control units are not magical tools for extracting HP from a motor. The advantage of an ECU over a carbureted motor is more precise control over the a/f mixture and timing. This is worth some HP over a carbureted motor. However, there's typically not huge amounts of power to be gained by messing with an already well setup electonically controlled motor. The SVX ECU is a fairly advanced unit, and Subaru has tuned the EG33 pretty well from the factory. This is why LAN's Stage 1 add only about 7 HP. You'll not get more than a few HP beyond that with a Motec (or whatever).

Why you would prefer to not use a turbo (or SC)? HP is HP, and it all puts stress on the motor.