Chevy "Forester" ---- SUbaru "Forester"

[Royal Tiger]

As for Porsche, I have been saying for years (go back and look) that Porsche and Subaru should have merged. Subaru would provide the much needed cash influx through numbers Porsche could never see on their own. Plus there was a what-if in one of the car mags about a new 914 with a boxster size vehicle, mid engine, with the 300hp STi motor and AWD. Both companies have entensive history with boxer engines and it would be a great marriage. Subaru has the WRC and Porsche dominates GT class racing. And maybe with the much needed capital I would get my wish and see Porsche in F1!

Originally Posted by Shadow248

Using Consumer Reports data as a rebuttal is just about as bad as me saying "well the Chevy commercials say that Chevys are great, so they must be". CR is a FOR-PROFIT organization, which automatically means they can not be relied on for an un-biased opinion. Whoever contributes the most will get the best reviews...just like the major automobile mags. JD Power is the only non-profit organization that currently does regular quality studies for new vehicles. Sure they aren't perfect, but they are the industry standard for quality measurement. That's about as good as you can get these days.

Using a commercially funded, and not-very-creatively-biased organization's claims to counter an argument that was based on the findings of the industry standard rating organization just isn't going to cut it fellas. Sorry.

Wow. You couldn't be more incorrect if you tried.



Dave

[pavanbabut]

Originally Posted by PA_SVX

As for Porsche, I have been saying for years (go back and look) that Porsche and Subaru should have merged. Subaru would provide the much needed cash influx through numbers Porsche could never see on their own. Plus there was a what-if in one of the car mags about a new 914 with a boxster size vehicle, mid engine, with the 300hp STi motor and AWD. Both companies have entensive history with boxer engines and it would be a great marriage. Subaru has the WRC and Porsche dominates GT class racing. And maybe with the much needed capital I would get my wish and see Porsche in F1!

Porsche and Subaru merging, WOW!... thts awesome to see....
I hope we all will celebrate a grand party if tht happens.

-Pavan.

[Royal Tiger]

It makes perfect sense. Both use boxer motors, both have a history of AWD, and Subaru can give Porsche a volume of cars unable to reach on thier own. They call it synergy (that's my $.50 word of the day) in corporate circles. Both would benefit. Unfortunatly it's to late for Subaru as they just spent a bundle on some really bad designs.

[Landshark]

Originally Posted by PA_SVX

It makes perfect sense. Both use boxer motors, both have a history of AWD, and Subaru can give Porsche a volume of cars unable to reach on thier own. They call it synergy (that's my $.50 word of the day) in corporate circles. Both would benefit. Unfortunatly it's to late for Subaru as they just spent a bundle on some really bad designs.

Blitzens for the US! i likey that idea!

Porbaru? Subarorsche?

[Earthworm]

Except now that would mean GM would have some control over Porsche. We know where that would lead!

GM is wonderful alright:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8086688/



Interesting that GM had the most recalls in the US last year. A fine product indeed

I especially enjoy this line:

"In April and May, GM recalled more than 2 million vehicles to fix a variety of potential safety defects..."


Nice.


Dave

[NapaBavarian]

Originally Posted by Landshark

with GM, its better to change cars at 70k, because the death rattle is right around the corner.

I thought the death rattle came from the factory?

[pavanbabut]

Originally Posted by NapaBavarian

I thought the death rattle came from the factory?

u r right..... thts the speciality of GM
-Pavan.

[Shadow248]

Must have cut into alot of egos with my last post.

Originally Posted by NapaBavarian

Almost all makes are fairly close together in problems per 100,000 in the first 3 months, besides, what does initial quallity have to do with long term reliability?

What does the factory have to do with long term reliability? ALOT less than the owner does.

Originally Posted by Landshark

initial quality:
my Legacy driver's side mat "no-slidey clip" broke. there is a new improved replacement part available. that would be a problem in the first three months.

long term reliability:
my Lumina's engine computer went at 70k (so did my brother's around the same mileage), paint peeled off after 4 yrs (so did my brother's), rear brakes needed rebuilt every 1-2 years (ditto on the bro's) , dash warped/creaked/rattled (ditto with bro), stalling problem, etc.

see the difference?

The problem with the notion of "long term reliability":

Your engine computer problem could be due to water, did you wash your engine? Or perhaps it was subjected to some strong magnetic field that shortened it's life.

Paint problems (except for black, that was a defect from 1988-1995), are largely due to the care of the paint. If you don't wash your car once and awhile, that paint won't last long. If you work or live in an area that produces alot of chemicals (Pittsburgh DEFINETLY qualifies) your paint won't last long either.

Don't even get me started on brakes. My gf goes through at least one set per year. I finally got her trained to get cars with 4-wheel disc so i don't have to keep replacing those cylinders.

Dash cracking? Come on! What the hell does that have to do with the factory?!

Any of those problems can be attributed to how the car was taken care of and are more often the result of neglect and abuse than anything the factory did. But if they showed up on a Subaru, i know they'd be discounted automatically as the owner's fault.

Originally Posted by dcarrb

Wrong. Consumer Reports is a publication of Consumers Union, a non-profit organization funded solely by subscriptions and TAX DEDUCTIBLE, private donations. They accept no advertising nor corporate contributions, and will not allow any commercial enterprise to use their evaluations in their own marketing. (As much as they'd like, Subaru can't use favorable CR reviews in Subaru ads, unlike those from automotive magazines and other "consumer" concerns.) All products evaluated by Consumers Union are purchased anonymously, at retail.

As to their quality and frequency-of-repair surveys, CU collects data from CAR OWNERS for models dating back 10 years. That's as fair an assessment as you'll ever find.

Wrong. CR is a NOT FOR PROFIT organization (read: we take donations). They accept no DIRECT commercial contributions. That doesn't mean they aren't "on the take" as they say. There have been many studies done on CR's findings...many of these studies have found mountains of proof that CR is favoring certain brands. However, Consumer Union is extremely adept at squashing any attempt to criticize their publications. It's very hard to find anything about it on the internet, but I did anyway. Read up.

www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=4733

www.allpar.com/cr.html

http://www.retailwire.com/In_Depth/S...sion.cfm/10290

www.umich.edu/~newsbias/institutional.html

It's convenient that this discussion came up less than a month after I gave a public speech about the perceived quality of imports over domestics at Lehigh University. I have all the sources and info nice and handy on my computer.

Originally Posted by red95svx

Wow. You couldn't be more incorrect if you tried.

Assuming you read into the links I just posted above ^ , I shouldn't even have to respond to this.

Originally Posted by red95svx

Interesting that GM had the most recalls in the US last year. A fine product indeed

I especially enjoy this line:

"In April and May, GM recalled more than 2 million vehicles to fix a variety of potential safety defects..."

We just had this discussion on this board a few weeks ago. Car for car, Ford more than doubled GM's recall rate last year. Regardless, that has nothing to do with actual reliability of the vehicles in question. All of GM's recalls were voluntary, and import carmakers are just now starting to care enough to join in and fix what they screwed up on their own cars (read up on Honda's recent recall fiasco).

GM recalls their cars for faulty turn signals, tailgate supports, and ignition locks...etc. The SVX had a bad tranny, underengineered bearings and defective rotors...but did Subaru care? Of course not.

[NapaBavarian]

Holly cr@p, shadow is right because he said so again!

Originally Posted by Shadow248

Must have cut into alot of egos with my last post.



What does the factory have to do with long term reliability? ALOT less than the owner does.



The problem with the notion of "long term reliability":

Your engine computer problem could be due to water, did you wash your engine? Or perhaps it was subjected to some strong magnetic field that shortened it's life.

Paint problems (except for black, that was a defect from 1988-1995), are largely due to the care of the paint. If you don't wash your car once and awhile, that paint won't last long. If you work or live in an area that produces alot of chemicals (Pittsburgh DEFINETLY qualifies) your paint won't last long either.

Don't even get me started on brakes. My gf goes through at least one set per year. I finally got her trained to get cars with 4-wheel disc so i don't have to keep replacing those cylinders.

Dash cracking? Come on! What the hell does that have to do with the factory?!

Any of those problems can be attributed to how the car was taken care of and are more often the result of neglect and abuse than anything the factory did. But if they showed up on a Subaru, i know they'd be discounted automatically as the owner's fault.



Wrong. CR is a NOT FOR PROFIT organization (read: we take donations). They accept no DIRECT commercial contributions. That doesn't mean they aren't "on the take" as they say. There have been many studies done on CR's findings...many of these studies have found mountains of proof that CR is favoring certain brands. However, Consumer Union is extremely adept at squashing any attempt to criticize their publications. It's very hard to find anything about it on the internet, but I did anyway. Read up.

www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=4733

www.allpar.com/cr.html

http://www.retailwire.com/In_Depth/S...sion.cfm/10290

www.umich.edu/~newsbias/institutional.html

It's convenient that this discussion came up less than a month after I gave a public speech about the perceived quality of imports over domestics at Lehigh University. I have all the sources and info nice and handy on my computer.



Assuming you read into the links I just posted above ^ , I shouldn't even have to respond to this.



We just had this discussion on this board a few weeks ago. Car for car, Ford more than doubled GM's recall rate last year. Regardless, that has nothing to do with actual reliability of the vehicles in question. All of GM's recalls were voluntary, and import carmakers are just now starting to care enough to join in and fix what they screwed up on their own cars (read up on Honda's recent recall fiasco).

GM recalls their cars for faulty turn signals, tailgate supports, and ignition locks...etc. The SVX had a bad tranny, underengineered bearings and defective rotors...but did Subaru care? Of course not.

[Landshark]

Originally Posted by Shadow248

Must have cut into alot of egos with my last post.

you sure bruised my fragile ego!

What does the factory have to do with long term reliability? ALOT less than the owner does.

that's what GM owners keep telling themselves.

Your engine computer problem could be due to water, did you wash your engine?

nope

Or perhaps it was subjected to some strong magnetic field that shortened it's life.

i guess my brothers was subjected to the same magnetic field, too, because his went out around the same mileage. funny how i've never had a computer fail in any other car i've owned. i guess GM owners should watch out for cosmic rays and solar flares. is there a warning in the manual for that?

Paint problems (except for black, that was a defect from 1988-1995), are largely due to the care of the paint. If you don't wash your car once and awhile, that paint won't last long. If you work or live in an area that produces alot of chemicals (Pittsburgh DEFINETLY qualifies) your paint won't last long either.

wrong again - it was a crap paint job. if you know anything about me, know that i'm a psychopath when it comes to takign care of my vehicle.

Don't even get me started on brakes. My gf goes through at least one set per year. I finally got her trained to get cars with 4-wheel disc so i don't have to keep replacing those cylinders.

don't get me started on the craptastic brakes that car had. i've never had to have brakes rebuilt on any other car i've owned. that car needed them rebuilt multiple times. these were 4-wheel discs, BTW. i've mentioned the class-action lawsuit about them before, too.

...or could could have been a strong magnetic field, or possibly an alien conspiracy.

Dash cracking? Come on! What the hell does that have to do with the factory?!

well, the cheap-ass interior was made somewhere wasn't it?

Any of those problems can be attributed to how the car was taken care of and are more often the result of neglect and abuse than anything the factory did.

not in my case.

But if they showed up on a Subaru, i know they'd be discounted automatically as the owner's fault.

of course, because we are all fan boi's. in fact, in my spare time i go to GM message boards and fight for Subaru's honor and respect. i am a winnAr, and i don't really have any other hobbies. sometimes i pretend that i'm a super-hero - driving around getting into adventures with my Subaru.

[Matthewmongan]

shadow, you contradict yourself oftin. you say cr is a FOR PROFIT organization and shouldnt be trusted. and then say its a NOT FOR PROFIT organization that accepts donations, thuse cant be trusted. red cross is a non profit organization that accepts and relies on donations. so is mpt, are we suposed to get ruffeled at the folks at npr because their non profit but taking donations? understand that every organization, news program, and joe on the street has a bias, their is no way around that.

you sat that computer failure dues to washing the engine bay and paint degradation due to infrequint washing is a consumer ended problem. i say nay, it is infact a factory problem. i have driven/owned manycars since i started driving none were new so i am familiar with hi mileage problems. my father is a machine when it comes to cars so everything he buys has a record of maintainence or he doesn't purchase. simply for the exception of a pontiac fiero that i bought of my own free will all cars i have had were in excelent condition. of the 4 subarus i have had i only had one problem with the lot and that was a tweeeked crank pully caused by deryliction of maintence. working at jiffylube i saw a 94 legacy with 560k come in without an oil filter. i would have never known if i hadn't checked the oil myself. i saw the same car come in three times again before i quit, every time it ran like a dream.

on a regular basis i wash my engine bay and i have on all 6 cars ive owned, the only problem i had was with the cavilier because of a cracked distributer. so if someone is to have a computer fail because he washes his engine bay it is his fault. NO it is the builders fault for not producing a decent auto. what i consider washing my car is squrting it down with a hose once in the beginning of summer. lots of salt in maryland and no paint chippng on any subaru even the 80's loyale. the cavalier lost its paint after 6 months. I dont want to baby my ride, if it cant endure me it souldnt be sold. i am one of the roughest people on a car out their and subarus are the only cars that last. the only reason i keep coming back to them is because they outlast othercars. id still drive the 80's loyal if i hadent totaled it, id drive the 94 legacy if it wasnt in a hit and run and i would still be driving the 95 legacy if the engine didn't blow at ~600k(gauge cluster replaced) because my sister doesnt believe in opening the hood. really she had the car for 4 years without any scheduled maintenence or regular oil changes.

[shelfy]

Originally Posted by immortal_suby

4.5 years old! Does it even do progressive scan?

i don't know what this is. is it yet another thing i didn't know i needed?

[Matthewmongan]

Originally Posted by Landshark

sometimes i pretend that i'm a super-hero - driving around getting into adventures with my Subaru.

HEY me and the green hornet do that all the time (im kato, my car is green) i even have al hurt's solo on a cd somewhare. now if only i had a black svx i could call it the black beauty and hire a moron, who relys on kato to whipe his anus to be the green hornet (keep it close to the tv show)

THE GREEN HORNET RIDES AGAIN B!%CHES