Chevy "Forester" ---- SUbaru "Forester"

[Earthworm]

Originally Posted by dcarrb

To chime-in on the FWD vs. AWD or 4WD debate, I spent three winters in Vermont with an '86 Subie GL wagon with the old "On-Demand" 4WD. Meaning, of course, that I could select between front-wheel or four-wheel drive on the fly.

News flash: Four-wheel drive outperformed front-wheel drive in the snow. And as someone else noted, it sure was nice only having to shovel from the front door to the car, instead of the whole bleepin' driveway.

What was cool about the old On-Demand system was 4-wheel low. Granny gear. You could drive that thing down a steep, snow covered backroad and never touch the brake.

dcb

I was going to say almost the exact same thing! I was going to add a pic though:

Many times I would leave the Justy in 2WD just to see how far I could go in the snow. When I got stuck I would put it in 4WD and JUST KEEP GOING.

This past winter with my SVX we had a blizzard at work and after work I helped 3 cars out. One was a Lancer and it was less than useless. He couldn't even go down the path where all the other cars went. I gave up with him and drove AROUND him where NO cars went.

[Matthewmongan]

Originally Posted by Shadow248

Yes they are handcrafted....wow... is that really worth an extra 200k?

.

for the INSANE amount of poon you would get, i would say yes.

why else would you buy one.... or any other sports car.

[Landshark]

Originally Posted by Shadow248

Obviously, i'm speaking in a "what if" kind of situation when I talk about Ferraris. Because the reality is that they are less reliable than a Kia, and yet ten times the price of a Toyota - but people still buy them. Yes they are handcrafted....wow... is that really worth an extra 200k? And seeing as I can get the same performance in a ZO6 or Viper for 1/3 the price (and problems), and get really close to that performance in a GTO, STi, or EVO (and really save money), it seems to me like the justification for such a high price has eroded to almost zilch. Keep in mind i'm not saying that all "premium" cars are dumb...i know you pay alot for image...but by alot i mean an extra 50k at most...not an extra 200k.

people who buy Ferrari's probably don't even look at the sticker price. i'm sure they are aware of generally how much it will cost, but they aren't in the showroom haggling over the price.
your Walmart shopping, McDonald's eating, GM driving brain can't seem to get around that concept. i don't think its justifiable either, but then again i am not a multi-millionaire. Ferrari makes them, people buy them. get over it.

Might I remind you however, that using the phrase "performance in the snow" makes one sound even dumber than the aforementioned former member.

"performance in the snow" is not getting stuck somewhere. i live in an area with MANY hills. many of these hills are steep and LONG. from a local newspaper, the steepest hills in Pgh by grade (many of these areas in south Pgh. suburbs i drive through daily or often.)

Being located in the foothills of the Alleghenies, Pittsburgh has more hills than most metropolitan areas. That combined with road conditions that include no shoulders in many areas, cobblestone and brick roads, as well as potholes and road debris makes the area quite a challenge.

Canton Avenue Beechview 37%
Dornbush Street Homewood 31.98%
Boustead Street Beechview 29%
East Woodford Avenue Carrick 27.6%
Rialto Street Troy Hill 24%
Hampshire Avenue Beechview 23%
Capital Avenue Brookline 22.35%
Flatbush Avenue Brookline 21.33%
Fallowfield Avenue Beechview 22%
Potomac Avenue Banksville 22%
Belasco Avenue Beechview 21%
Walbridge Street Elliot 20%
Dagmar Avenue Beechview 20%
Greenleaf Street Mt. Washington 19.6%
Schimmer Street North Side 19.6%
Tokay Street Homewood 19.25%
Coast Avenue Beechview 17.65%
Cuthbert Street Mt. Washington 16%
South Negley Avenue Squirrel Hill 15.81% (about 9 degrees!)
Glenbury Street East Brookline 14.96%
Shaler Street West End 14.5%
Brosville Street Allentown 14.35%
Federal Street North Side 13.70%
Buena Vista North Side 12.5%
Quarry Street Southside 12.5%
Antrim Street North Side 12.35%
Eleanor Street South Side 12.2%
Baytree Street North Side 11.12%
Yoder Street Greenfield 9.52%

Trans Am with snow tires in the winter - no thanks - i like to get where i'm going.

...and for that I refer you to our respective post counts, and point the questio n back at you - somebody need a life?

i own an SVX, i post on an SVX site. what's your excuse? run off from GM sites for being slow and special? (i think deep down inside you really miss your girlfriend's old car. )

I always shovel my driveway, cause i'm not lazy. But in the few times when i had to get to work before i had time to shovel, i've never had a problem, even in 6" of snow. I refer you to the comment above about Doe mountain.

i don't shovel my driveway, because i don't have to. the time you waste shoveling the driveway could be spent defending GM on NASIOC or some other car forum. where are your priorities, man?!?

Same goes for FWD. Basically the only way you can try to justify a need for AWD is to say "if I want performance in the snow..." but if you are pushing your car in bad weather, than you have a deathwish. No car or truck, no matter the drivetrain setup or design, is "well-suited" in the snow. Some are at less of a disadvantage than others, but that's it. AWD helps you go, it does not help you stop. FWD goes just fine in the snow, but still has the stopping problem. AWD can help you turn, but for there to be a difference, you have to be going WAY TOO FAST to begin with. Again, deathwish.

a deathwish is RWD fishtailing all over the road in the snow. believe me, i see Mustangs, Camaros, etc. doing it every year.

Why are people willing to pay over $200k for a quirky, unreliable car...when most people are complaining about reliability problems in $30k or less cars?

because they can. when money is no object, having the Ferrari in the shop is not a problem - you just drive the Porsche/BMW/Mercedes/Jaguar/etc. that day. someone who could only afford to drive a 1975 pickup truck would consider your souped up WS6 lavish and expensive. its all relative. look outside of Shadow Land once in a while.

[dcarrb]

Originally Posted by Shadow248

I always shovel my driveway, cause i'm not lazy. But in the few times when i had to get to work before i had time to shovel, i've never had a problem, even in 6" of snow. I refer you to the comment above about Doe mountain.

I wrote that 4WD outperforms FWD in snow, not that the latter can't make it. All others factors being equal, most would prefer driving a 4WD or AWD car rather than a 2WD vehicle of any description in winter weather, period.

That said, I'd rather be behind the wheel of my old '86 GL on a snowy Vermont two-lane than in my SVX, any day.

As to your implication that I'm lazy: You're right.

The only thing that GL needed was headlight wipers. There were a few nights I had to pull over and brush away the snow in order to see where I was going.

dcb

Originally Posted by Shadow248

The best brakes in the world will stop you no quicker in the snow than 1950's era un-powered drums. On snow it's all about weight and tires. That's it.

Not true. Take two identical cars. One has brand new brakes, one has brakes that are down to minimum specs. Send them screaming down a snowy road. You're going to tell me that they'll both stop in the same distance? Good brakes make a difference. Weight and tires play a roll, but without pads and rotors you are not going to stop! And the better they are, the quicker you'll stop. This is simple automotive physics. More friction=quicker stops.




Dave

Originally Posted by Shadow248

Truth be told, I never could find a solid advantage to AWD. Perhaps you could have more fun with it, but functionally, it's no better than FWD.

You apparently missed the story about my neighbors. They'll tell you what the advantage is. They push there cars up the driveway, I drive mine up the driveway. Take a spin out my way in the winter and I'll show you hills a FWD only dreams of being able to climb, snow tires or not!

No solid advantage to AWD?? You have either never driven in an AWD car in deep snow or you are just being silly.


Dave

Originally Posted by Shadow248

...i know you pay alot for image...but by alot i mean an extra 50k at most...not an extra 200k.

To some people, image is everything. How else do you explain the huge price tag on "designer" clothing, perfume, or jewelry for that matter? Some people will pay big money just for a label. Hell, I think Harley Davidsons are nothing but a $5,000 bike with a $25,000 Harley badge, but people still buy them because you "have" to own a Harley.


Dave

[Matthewmongan]

Originally Posted by red95svx

To some people, image is everything. How else do you explain the huge price tag on "designer" clothing, perfume, or jewelry for that matter? Some people will pay big money just for a label. Hell, I think Harley Davidsons are nothing but a $5,000 bike with a $25,000 Harley badge, but people still buy them because you "have" to own a Harley.


Dave

speaking for image. this imensly hot woman in my chem class has a louie vatan hand bag. personaly i think its the most disgusting bag i have ever seen (this is coming from a man who had a colostomy bag for a year), but she likes it and bought it because it had the "Lv" emblem all over. its small useless and ugly but it cost 500 or more. she is still hot tough.

[NapaBavarian]

Um...Kinda like RWD? That sounds exactly like the RWD way to make a u-turn.[/QUOTE]

No, not even close, like AWD, in a rear wheel drive car the arse end does more sliding at heavy throttle

Originally Posted by Shadow248

Obviously, i'm speaking in a "what if" kind of situation when I talk about Ferraris. Because the reality is that they are less reliable than a Kia, and yet ten times the price of a Toyota - but people still buy them. Yes they are handcrafted....wow... is that really worth an extra 200k? And seeing as I can get the same performance in a ZO6 or Viper for 1/3 the price (and problems), and get really close to that performance in a GTO, STi, or EVO (and really save money), it seems to me like the justification for such a high price has eroded to almost zilch. Keep in mind i'm not saying that all "premium" cars are dumb...i know you pay alot for image...but by alot i mean an extra 50k at most...not an extra 200k.

You seem to have no understanding of why people buy them, and yes, a hand crafted piece of art is worth far more than a POS saturn that gets you from point A to point B without turning any heads.

Originally Posted by Shadow248

The best brakes in the world will stop you no quicker in the snow than 1950's era un-powered drums. On snow it's all about weight and tires. That's it. My fully loaded mid-size FWD GTP could stop about three carlengths before Mandi's SVX in the snow. It could also make it to the top of Doe Mountain (where she used to live) before the SVX. It also sat about 2 inches higher than the SVX, making it much better suited for the deeper snow. Truth be told, I never could find a solid advantage to AWD. Perhaps you could have more fun with it, but functionally, it's no better than FWD.

I hope you had identical tires properly sized for the weight, what does the GTP weigh? It better be the same as an FWD SVX, actually to make this comparison properly you will need 2 SVXes, one FWD, one AWD, otherwise you are comparing apples and oranges.

Originally Posted by Shadow248

I don't "expect". But don't you ever stop and think about things like that? Why are people willing to pay over $200k for a quirky, unreliable car...when most people are complaining about reliability problems in $30k or less cars?

Not at all, people who pay that much are probably paying with cash because they made that much last week. There are many people who have enough money to drop 200k without bating an eye, I'm glad they do

[NapaBavarian]

To understand the ferarri thing...

Lets say a guy makes, oh, 80K/year, and said guy drives an econobox he got for a few hundred bux every day, but on weekends he pulls out his bad ass testosterone laden muscle car that he plunked down 20k for, not inclusive of taxes he had to work for 3 months to own that car.

Next dude drives a 60k BMW 6 days a week, but on sunday he pulls out his 250k Ferarri, of course he makes 3 mil a year, so for him that ferarri cost one month of work not inclusive of taxes...

now who looks dumb?

I don't calculate anything I buy in dollars, I calculate what I buy in hours/days/weeks/months of my time at work.

[dcarrb]

On the subject of money: Bumped into a guy I know the other day, in line at Burger King. He asked about my SVX and we commenced talking about Subarus, and he said he'd recently taken his just-graduated son car shopping. One of their stops was a Subie dealership.

"Man, I thought Subarus were supposed to be affordable!" This from a fella who co-owns his own shop and does not do badly at all, and who buys a new vehicle more often than I buy shoes.

It's amazing what a memorable advertising campaign can do. More people recall the "Inexpensive... and built to stay that way" business than the key point of a Subaru ad they saw yesterday. This is another reason I'm skeptical about Subaru's apparent intent to position itself as a mid/upscale make. After all these years, the American public's perception is still, "inexpensive..." Until they get to the dealer's lot and check the stickers, that is.

I did a stint as ad production manager for a daily newspaper (one reason I'm particularly sensitive to how ad money can affect the editorial content of a publication, Shadow), and I recall hearing our ad sales manager describe a discussion he'd had with the local Subaru dealer; specifically, the dealer was bemoaning the fact that he was getting killed on price by the MegaFord dealership down the street. Price-wise, he had nothing to compete with the Focus, a parade of which streamed by his door every day.

Instead of taking the entire line upscale, maybe it's time Subaru launched an elite brand?

dcb

Edit: Which is what they should have done when they introduced the SVX.

[Shadow248]

Originally Posted by Earthworm

Many times I would leave the Justy in 2WD just to see how far I could go in the snow. When I got stuck I would put it in 4WD and JUST KEEP GOING.

I can understand your problem in that thing. I'm surprised it can move in 1" of snow without all four wheels powering it. Those wheels must be AT LEAST 11"

For a larger vehicle, FWD would have probably been more than adequate in the situation you spoke of.

Originally Posted by Landshark

people who buy Ferrari's probably don't even look at the sticker price. i'm sure they are aware of generally how much it will cost, but they aren't in the showroom haggling over the price.
your Walmart shopping, McDonald's eating, GM driving brain can't seem to get around that concept. i don't think its justifiable either, but then again i am not a multi-millionaire. Ferrari makes them, people buy them. get over it.

Ok I get the point already. I believe I said more than once that I know why people buy them. I was simply stating, in short, that I'm surprised that these people are not demanding better quality out of their $250k+ cars when others are spending $30k and getting much higher quality cars.

Originally Posted by Landshark

"performance in the snow" is not getting stuck somewhere. i live in an area with MANY hills. many of these hills are steep and LONG. from a local newspaper, the steepest hills in Pgh by grade (many of these areas in south Pgh. suburbs i drive through daily or often.)

I wasn't speaking only of you. Remember some time back when we had the Corvette arguments? Someone on this site posted something to the tune of "...yeah let's see that Corvette in a wet slalom, it wouldn't be able to handle it...etc". That's just dumb. There are people out there who think the STi is made to do 13.5 sec 1/4 mile runs in the snow, and that's what i was referring to. Those cars perform no better in the snow than an equally powered and sized FWD car. That is to say they both suck balls in the snow. One just makes you feel more confident.

Originally Posted by Landshark

i own an SVX, i post on an SVX site. what's your excuse? run off from GM sites for being slow and special? (i think deep down inside you really miss your girlfriend's old car. )

If the SVX didn't have a $4000 tranny problem, and obtaining parts didn't mean doing illegal things, it would be at the top of my list in my current daily-driver search. That way I could have two rare, hot looking, fun to drive cars.

Originally Posted by Landshark

look outside of Shadow Land once in a while.

HA! Consider where I am now. I'm in a world where common logic doesn't seem to apply.

Originally Posted by red95svx

Not true. Take two identical cars. One has brand new brakes, one has brakes that are down to minimum specs. Send them screaming down a snowy road. You're going to tell me that they'll both stop in the same distance? Good brakes make a difference. Weight and tires play a roll, but without pads and rotors you are not going to stop! And the better they are, the quicker you'll stop. This is simple automotive physics. More friction=quicker stops.

Ok...so barring the possibility that you've found a set of brakes that can defy the laws of physics, you are forgetting a very important point. The brake rotor doesn't link the caliper to the ground, it links the caliper to the tire. And the tire doesn't ALWAYS link the rotor directly to the ground, sometimes there's a buffer surface in between (i.e. snow). So, unless you change the properties of frozen water, those world-class brakes are still worthless because although they can stop the tire from spinning with stellar precision, the stopped tire can do nothing but watch as it slides across the snow/ice surface that is keeping it from connecting to the pavement. Get it now?

Originally Posted by Matthewmongan

speaking for image. this imensly hot woman in my chem class has a louie vatan hand bag. personaly i think its the most disgusting bag i have ever seen (this is coming from a man who had a colostomy bag for a year), but she likes it and bought it because it had the "Lv" emblem all over. its small useless and ugly but it cost 500 or more. she is still hot tough.

Those bags will be my downfall!!

My girlfriend has one...even named it "Louie" (she treats the thing like a pet). Everytime she gets out of my car, she turns and the little metal lock hanger on the end of the purse whacks the side of my car. As you can imagine, this is just about the most evil sound a man can experience. I also had to explain to her why it's pointy metal feet are not good for the finish on the hood of a car. ARGH.

Originally Posted by NapaBavarian

I hope you had identical tires properly sized for the weight, what does the GTP weigh? It better be the same as an FWD SVX, actually to make this comparison properly you will need 2 SVXes, one FWD, one AWD, otherwise you are comparing apples and oranges.

AHH i see. So then when you say "AWD is better" you really mean that an AWD SVX is better than a FWD SVX...and an AWD STi is better than the (non-existent, i know) FWD STi. See this really clears things up. I always thought that you AWD fanatics were trying to tell me that AWD is better in general.

Originally Posted by dcarrb

Instead of taking the entire line upscale, maybe it's time Subaru launched an elite brand?

That is a better idea. Subaru is going to alienate their cult followers by doing what they are doing, and then they'll have next to nothing.

They even have a great name already out there. ALCYONE.

[Landshark]

Originally Posted by Shadow248

I wasn't speaking only of you. Remember some time back when we had the Corvette arguments? Someone on this site posted something to the tune of "...yeah let's see that Corvette in a wet slalom, it wouldn't be able to handle it...etc". That's just dumb.

not really - big wide tires, RWD, and lotsa torque isn't exactly a recipe for excellent handling in the wet. its dumb to think otherwise.

There are people out there who think the STi is made to do 13.5 sec 1/4 mile runs in the snow, and that's what i was referring to.

i've never run across one of those people on the Subaru forums i frequent.

Those cars perform no better in the snow than an equally powered and sized FWD car. That is to say they both suck balls in the snow. One just makes you feel more confident.

that's just plain wrong. my driveway has been a testbed for many different vehicles performance in the winter: Uncle's GMC Jimmy with snow tires (RWD/4WD) - spun and didn't go anywhere until it was thrown into 4-wheel drive / my Lesabre T-Type (FWD) slipped and slid, no dice / SVX, WRX - no problems ever going up the driveway, not even a hint of wheelspin. these are facts, but you may twist them as you see fit.

If the SVX didn't have a $4000 tranny problem, and obtaining parts didn't mean doing illegal things, it would be at the top of my list in my current daily-driver search. That way I could have two rare, hot looking, fun to drive cars.

throw a $600 4.44 tranny in. no more heat issues, and faster. aside from possibly grey floor mats, what parts are so elusive?

HA! Consider where I am now. I'm in a world where common logic doesn't seem to apply.

you must be looking in a mirror then.

AHH i see. So then when you say "AWD is better" you really mean that an AWD SVX is better than a FWD SVX...and an AWD STi is better than the (non-existent, i know) FWD STi. See this really clears things up. I always thought that you AWD fanatics were trying to tell me that AWD is better in general.

no you don't see. a better comparison of performance in snow would ideally be a FWD SVX vs. an AWD SVX, because they are the same car, same size tires, and will (pretty much) weigh the same and have the same weight distribution. comparing an AWD SVX to a FWD GTP to "compare drivetrains in snow" brings too many other variables to the table.

That is a better idea. Subaru is going to alienate their cult followers by doing what they are doing, and then they'll have next to nothing.

They even have a great name already out there. ALCYONE.

that would be a good idea, but it seems companies want "instant success" and sales hits immediately anymore (for example, the Monaro, bum-rushed into its GTO role). it may take a few years for an upscale Subaru brand along the lines of Lexus/Infiniti/Acura to catch on as a marque the public would associate with "luxury" or "high end", and it seems companies just aren't willing to invest the time. it has to be a success NOW!

Originally Posted by Shadow248

Ok...so barring the possibility that you've found a set of brakes that can defy the laws of physics, you are forgetting a very important point. The brake rotor doesn't link the caliper to the ground, it links the caliper to the tire. And the tire doesn't ALWAYS link the rotor directly to the ground, sometimes there's a buffer surface in between (i.e. snow). So, unless you change the properties of frozen water, those world-class brakes are still worthless because although they can stop the tire from spinning with stellar precision, the stopped tire can do nothing but watch as it slides across the snow/ice surface that is keeping it from connecting to the pavement. Get it now?

I said that tires and weight play a part, I didn't ignore that fact. What you are missing is that without pads and rotors, even the best tires in the world won't stop you! You need all three, and the better they ALL are, they better your stops will be. Get it now?


Dave

[Matthewmongan]

If kenetic energy is 1/2 MV^2 than a fwd svx vs a fwd svx both with the same tires and brakes is a good comparison and assuming that the constant of gravity for both is -9.8m/s^2. both traveling at the same speed on the same road. mass is 1635.32kg (3580 lbs x .454kg) velocity is say 16m/s (about 30mph) so linier momentum 25005.12kgm/s. the front wheel drive pulls the car making it prone to fish tail where the awd both pulls and pushes at a constant rate making the car more stable. the fwd can pull the front end into a turn but the rear od the car still has the momentum of 25005.12kgm/s, the fwd has to work harder to overcome newton's second law (an object in motion stays in motion until a force is acted upon it) working harder the front wheels spin, ergo loosing traction. the awd accelorates (directional force) the car in a uniform manner through the turn, thus it has to provide less force to overcome its momentum. less work equates to less wheel spin and a safer car, for some people this may create a false feeling of security as the drive at unsenceable speeds. but if your not a moron talking on your cell phone while smoking a cig you sould be alright.


note to those unfamiliar with physics
acceloration is not just speeding up its any change in velocity, velocity being directional, a car turning can be expressed in terms of acceloration because its a change in direction(velocity).