Subaru BRZ Coupe Announced!

[BoxerFanatic]

Originally Posted by Crazy_pilot

Center diff isn't the problem, it's the front diff. Removing it allows them to mount the engine several inches lower and farther back. Lower C of G, better weight distribution...

For a RWD car, this will be a fine chassis. It would have been even better, if they had gone with a rear transaxle like a 944, Alfa GTV, or C5/C6 Corvette. or even gone a mini-Cayman route, and made it mid engined, and succeeded the MR2, rather than the AE86. But they didn't.

Too heavy and unnecessary. The car is supposed to come in sub-3000 lbs, and a well tuned 4-cylinder is plenty for that.

Plenty. or otherwise "sufficient". How many legendary cars are "sufficient", though?

A 300-350 tuned EZ-series engine would be all the much better in this car, and could be considered a successor to the Mark II or Mark III Supra, compared to the RWD Celica or Corolla of those days.

Sometimes a bit too much, is just enough.

Impossible using Subaru's current systems, the engine will literally sit where the front axles would normally go. Unless you can figure out a way to put a differential inside a crankcase it's not going to work.

Agreed. Plus it would be pointless to have done all the R&D to change this chassis from the other Subaru platforms.

It would be easier for a manufacturer to just build a coupe body on the Impreza's floor plan.

Changing it from AWD to RWD drastically, as the FT-86 project has done, and then back to AWD would be a bit odd.

And what's so wrong with it not having AWD? Yes, I know that's Subaru's signiture feature, but has anyone here ever driven a lightweight, well balanced, RWD coupe? S2000, 240SX, Miata... In terms of fun to drive these cars will stomp every modern Subaru all day long. And as for winter... Throw a set of snow tires on it. If you still get into trouble you're doing something wrong.

I have a Miata. It trudged through 8 winters, on snow tires, with it's torsen LSD, before I rescued my SVX, and it became the second winter car, with the Legacy, and allows the Miata to now hibernate for the winter.

Fun to drive applies to the dry weather, when traction levels endorse having fun. Driving home in the snow is not the time to be seeking fun. That is when I seek control. AWD traction offers that control.

A miata is not more fun when the conditions aren't good. it is cold, cramped, loud, and possibly too light. The things that make it GREAT in some conditions, make it miserable in worse conditions.

Have you ever tried to drive a Miata in a big winter coat, and snowy boots? Not good. It isn't even all that easy to stow a winter coat in a Miata, without putting it in the trunk, and clamoring in and out of those tiny door openings, and low window seal. SVX is low at the roof, but not THAT tight to get in and out of, and you can drive it with boots on, and toss your coat in the back seat, with the plentiful heat from that EG33, being held in the cabin by a fixed roof and glass.

BOTH Subarus that I have STOMP the Miata in all-weather capability and competence.

And if I could only have one car...

I would want an AWD performance coupe. Every ounce of competence in the winter, and still fun every other day of the year, too.

Going the other way, with a VERY fun summer sports car, and then trying to extract more winter competence than it is capable of, in winter conditions, is not as positive a compromise. Especially if lack of control in those conditions causes damage to the car, in an accident, or a rough trip into the ditch.

Those not in the snow belt may not have to make such compromises.

[LetItSnow]

It's the page-long why-this-isn't-my-dream-car dead horse beating that gets everybody down. That's why you're getting heat on NASIOC. Better than three quarters of your first post on this thread is your driveway manifesto. The BRZ doesn't fit, and that's a bummer, but please don't grind it in here, too?

EDIT: This post was supposed to be up before the one above it. Into the abyss we go.

[BoxerFanatic]

Oh, I get it.

Everyone else can post anything they feel like.

Except that I can't post whatever I feel like because you don't want to see it.

Thanks for helping me feel as ABSOLUTELY UN-WELCOME to be here, as I am unwelcome on NASIOC.

DAMN. I was hoping SVX enthusiasts would be more civil and understanding of having views on cars that other people don't necessarily share, considering the choice to own and enjoy the SVX itself.

Black sheep indeed.

Back to your regularly scheduled programming, without me, if I am so damned inconvenient for you.

[icingdeath88]

Originally Posted by Crazy_pilot

Impossible using Subaru's current systems, the engine will literally sit where the front axles would normally go. Unless you can figure out a way to put a differential inside a crankcase it's not going to work.

That would actually be pretty cool.

[Landshark]

Originally Posted by BoxerFanatic

Oh, I get it.

Everyone else can post anything they feel like.

Except that I can't post whatever I feel like because you don't want to see it.

Thanks for helping me feel as ABSOLUTELY UN-WELCOME to be here, as I am unwelcome on NASIOC.

DAMN. I was hoping SVX enthusiasts would be more civil and understanding of having views on cars that other people don't necessarily share, considering the choice to own and enjoy the SVX itself.

Black sheep indeed.

Back to your regularly scheduled programming, without me, if I am so damned inconvenient for you.

i, for one, completely agree with you, but i think your approach is the problem people have - a couple posts could have adequately described your feelings about this car, but pages of "wall o' text" posts annoy people. its not going to be AWD, turbo, or H6, and i accept that and won't buy one. you should post on Facebook or write directly to Subaru, and maybe that might work.

its obvious you are very knowledgeable about cars, but the beating of the dead horse is what gets people upset. it doesn't bother me, as discussion forums are for discussion and its not hard to scroll right by things i don't care to read.

[Crazy_pilot]

Originally Posted by BoxerFanatic

For a RWD car, this will be a fine chassis. It would have been even better, if they had gone with a rear transaxle like a 944, Alfa GTV, or C5/C6 Corvette. or even gone a mini-Cayman route, and made it mid engined, and succeeded the MR2, rather than the AE86. But they didn't.

Way to complex. This is supposed to be a grassroots sort of car, one that the average enthusiast can afford and bring to the track.

Originally Posted by BoxerFanatic

Plenty. or otherwise "sufficient". How many legendary cars are "sufficient", though?

A 300-350 tuned EZ-series engine would be all the much better in this car, and could be considered a successor to the Mark II or Mark III Supra, compared to the RWD Celica or Corolla of those days.

Sometimes a bit too much, is just enough.

That's what the aftermarket is for, no? I'm sure within a year there will be a turbo version.

Originally Posted by BoxerFanatic

Agreed. Plus it would be pointless to have done all the R&D to change this chassis from the other Subaru platforms.

It would be easier for a manufacturer to just build a coupe body on the Impreza's floor plan.

I'm willing to bet significant money that option was explored and decided against because it's a joint project. Toyota has to do some of the work, not just put different sheetmetal on a car Subaru developped. Plus with all the difference this car will have in terms of driveline, at what point does it make more sense to develop a dedicated platform instead of modding an existing one to the point it's unrecognizable?

Originally Posted by BoxerFanatic

I have a Miata. It trudged through 8 winters, on snow tires, with it's torsen LSD, etc etc....

And I've driven a Nissan 240SX through winters in Ottawa (one of the coldest national capitals in the world) and Thunder Bay (northern Ontario town). I never got stuck without doing something very silly and would go so far as to say it was more fun in the winter than the SVX, because the SVX has so much traction that to get it sliding takes sometimes dangerous amounts of speed.

If you need a machine that can handle a good Canadian snowstorm, hold big puffy winter jackets, and do other practical things then this is just not the car you want. If you want something that will be fun to throw through the corners and are willing to sacrifice some practicality then maybe it is.

[Freeman]

AWD is easier in the snow.. I live where it snows.. My ass cant afford three sets of tires and I don't have a lift to change them every season..


AWD = better idea.

Buuuuut that's just my opinion.

[BoxerFanatic]

Originally Posted by Crazy_pilot

Way to complex. This is supposed to be a grassroots sort of car, one that the average enthusiast can afford and bring to the track.

That's what the aftermarket is for, no? I'm sure within a year there will be a turbo version.

I'm willing to bet significant money that option was explored and decided against because it's a joint project. Toyota has to do some of the work, not just put different sheetmetal on a car Subaru developped. Plus with all the difference this car will have in terms of driveline, at what point does it make more sense to develop a dedicated platform instead of modding an existing one to the point it's unrecognizable?

I agree. I think the Toyota R&D budget sharing was too good to pass up, and so they wrote off an in-house-only AWD coupe, and we get the one non-AWD result with three different badges on it, instead of two different coupe products.

However, every indication suggests that a turbo is not on the docket in the near future. WRX's successor that is still at least a year away, will bow and get limelight for at least a year before BRZ gets a turbo, IMHO.

Maybe they'll try if the initial sales fall on their face like the Honda CRZ (which is getting in-house performance attention to try and recover), but I don't want to wish for that.

The dedicated platform for RWD is fine, and is a fine underpinning for the RWD coupe. But I was saying it doesn't make sense to go from
AWD -> RWD -> back to AWD again.

BTW, the Subaru transaxle (5MT or 6MT) could be adapted to be a rear 2WD transaxle, either at the end of a torque tube from a front-mid-engine, or with a rear-mid-engine. if the chassis were developed that way, I don't think it would be markedly more expensive anymore. Modern manufacturing can be more flexible, especially in a case that the chassis is not shared with other sedans or anything else.

My other point was that if Subaru had wanted an AWD coupe, they would have re-bodied Impreza, they would not add AWD back on to FT-86 after spending so much to engineer it out.

And I've driven a Nissan 240SX through winters in Ottawa (one of the coldest national capitals in the world) and Thunder Bay (northern Ontario town). I never got stuck without doing something very silly and would go so far as to say it was more fun in the winter than the SVX, because the SVX has so much traction that to get it sliding takes sometimes dangerous amounts of speed.

If you need a machine that can handle a good Canadian snowstorm, hold big puffy winter jackets, and do other practical things then this is just not the car you want. If you want something that will be fun to throw through the corners and are willing to sacrifice some practicality then maybe it is.

Driving around a city in the winter is no light matter, but driving on rural roads miles from urban buildings or natural forest as wind-breaks, in a snow storm is not the place to be "throwing it through the corners." I don't screw around much in the snow when I need to be out in it, getting somewhere, or getting back home.

I still have that Miata, and it gets thrown through corners on T1-R summer tires in the warmer weather, where it belongs.

The FR-S/BRZ doesn't compel me to trade a paid-off miata. that is much more fun in the warmer weather, likely to be still lighter, with SLA suspension, rather than macPherson, and more appealing when the top gets folded down, in said warmer weather.

I am very glad that my SVX and my Miata are two different cars, for two different purposes, and as I said, if I had to have one, I'd want the AWD included. Think of it like the boy scout motto. Be Prepared. AWD is better preparation for when it isn't sunny, and isn't a big detriment when it is sunny.

[92snowmachine]

Originally Posted by Crazy_pilot

Unless you can figure out a way to put a differential inside a crankcase it's not going to work.

gm has been putting the front diff in and through the crankcase for several years now on the trailblazer line of cars. not that it is a good idea or even works well, but it can be done.

[icingdeath88]

Originally Posted by 92snowmachine

gm has been putting the front diff in and through the crankcase for several years now on the trailblazer line of cars. not that it is a good idea or even works well, but it can be done.

Neat. Now that would make for a well balanced Boxer engined car.

[icingdeath88]

This is also an interesting solution:


Porsche Cayenne. I guess it would introduce some torque steer, especially if it's not at least a bit rear-biased.

[oab_au]

I think there would be a bit of a problem getting the axles out through the cylinder heads.

Harvey.

[icingdeath88]

Originally Posted by oab_au

I think there would be a bit of a problem getting the axles out through the cylinder heads.

Harvey.

I was thinking through the oil pan. Although the exhaust manifolds would probably still be in the way.

[Arthur-UK]

Came across this:

http://mippin.com/mip/pct.jsp?p=367955087_127

Subaru BRZ Coupe named
Subaru has named its take on the Toyota FT-86 Coupe the BRZ, and confirmed it for a Frankfurt debut
Subau BRZ
By Jack Rix
23rd August 2011

Subaru has confirmed that a 'technology concept' of its 2+2 coupe – co-developed with the Toyota FT-86 – will debut at Frankfurt. And the firm has revealed that the production car will be called BRZ.

The letters BRZ stand for Boxer engine, Rear-wheel drive and Zenith - which confirms serveral facts. Firstly that, just like the Toyota FT-86, it will be rear-wheel drive not four-wheel drive and secondly it will feature a Boxer engine under the bonnet.

There are no precise engine details at the moment, but it's expected to use the same 200bhp 2.0-litre four-cylinder powerplant as the Toyota FT-86, which shoud mean a 0-62mph time of around seven seconds and a top speed of 140mph. Higher performance versions are expected further down the line.

The technology concept in Frankfurt will be called the Subaru BRZ Prologue - Boxer Sports Car Architecture II. The II refers to the fact that a wire frame model and the image shown here were already revealed at the Geneva show earlier this year.

Subaru claims production is sheduled to begin in Spring 2012, just a few months after its Toyota stablemate is slated to hit showrooms.

[Crazy_pilot]

http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/show...&highlight=brz