Another 4.44/4.11 question

[rob_4187]

I just got my car out of the bodyshop with a fresh paint job and it was lookin good. Drove it for a couple days then sunday i cracked the transaxle. The whole tranny needs to be replaced and the best deal for a SVX tranny was $1600. I was thinking a 4.11 or 4.44 swap would be way cheaper. Does anyone know what the actual St #s for the two? Thanks -rOB

How did you crack the transmission? What is "St #'s"?

[rob_4187]

I have no idea how it cracked. I was driving and it just started clanging. The tranny was rebuilt last year and when we took it apart we found that the transaxle was just bolted up with about a gallon of sealant... I had never heard of the st# but on ebay the trannys all say "st# __________". I think 4.11 is the best choice so what list of cars could i pull this from? The junkyards relatively close have imprezzas and legacy's. The only one i know of is an impreza 2.2. Thanks

[Chiketkd]

Originally Posted by rob_4187

I have no idea how it cracked. I was driving and it just started clanging. The tranny was rebuilt last year and when we took it apart we found that the transaxle was just bolted up with about a gallon of sealant... I had never heard of the st# but on ebay the trannys all say "st# __________". I think 4.11 is the best choice so what list of cars could i pull this from? The junkyards relatively close have imprezzas and legacy's. The only one i know of is an impreza 2.2. Thanks

Both 4.11 and 4.44 gears have their +ves:

- 4.11's offer the best compromise between improved performance and everyday fuel economy.

- 4.44's are the shortest gears Subaru has ever put into a production vehicle. These gears will have the biggest improvement in performance hands down, but fuel economy will suffer a bit on the highway.

The Legacy 4EAT is supposed to be closest in strength to the SVX's, so if you go 4.11, get one from a non-turbo Legacy sedan or wagon. It is worth paying extra to get one from a '96-'98 model.

The only car with 4.44's that will be a direct plu-n-play with our TCU's will be the 4.44's from a '96-'98 Legacy Outback. I just bought a trans and rear diff from a '97 Legacy Outback for $600.

-Chike

[rob_4187]

Originally Posted by Chiketkd

Both 4.11 and 4.44 gears have their +ves:

- 4.11's offer the best compromise between improved performance and everyday fuel economy.

- 4.44's are the shortest gears Subaru has ever put into a production vehicle. These gears will have the biggest improvement in performance hands down, but fuel economy will suffer a bit on the highway.

The Legacy 4EAT is supposed to be closest in strength to the SVX's, so if you go 4.11, get one from a non-turbo Legacy sedan or wagon. It is worth paying extra to get one from a '96-'98 model.

The only car with 4.44's that will be a direct plu-n-play with our TCU's will be the 4.44's from a '96-'98 Legacy Outback. I just bought a trans and rear diff from a '97 Legacy Outback for $600.

-Chike

Thanks for the info. Unfortunately my dad already ordered a used tranny from Mass. for $1600!!! Its outrageous!! Hopefully i can talk him into cancelling the order. He said he would consider, but doesnt want to have to do any welding or customizing that you might have to do on the differential. I'm not sure what all has to be done or how much harder it is to do than a svx tranny because you have to do something to adjust the speedo. Is there a complete writeup on it? I found the one that SVX-FF wrote but i need a little more detail. Thanks again

[svxfiles]

Originally Posted by rob_4187

Is there a complete writeup on it? I found the one that SVX-FF wrote but i need a little more detail. Thanks again

Quote:
svxfiles wrote on 11-16-2004 08:13 AM:
4.11/4.44 transmission swap

While it’s on the ground, disconnect the battery,
and remove the ps/alt and ac belt cover.

Remove the throttle body cover,the airbox that goes from the throttle body to the air filter airbox including the MAF.
This allows access to the two square electrical plugs, and the three wire plug on the SVX speedometer sensor, (located on the passenger side of the transmission, behind the bellhousing) that must be disconnected.

And remove the starter from the car, if you leave it under the hood it will find a way to jam against the bellhousing.

Remove the alternator and belt.
This allows you to access the four 12mm torque converter bolts. I use a two foot long 3/8” extension with the socket taped to the extension, so that it would not pull off.
Snake the extension under the intake manifold, from where the alternator was, to the access port in the bellhousing at the top passenger side of the bellhousing.

Remove the upper transmission mount, it’s the dog bone shaped mount that goes from the firewall to the top of the bellhousing.

Jack up the svx to where you can work on it safely, Use a garage lift if possible.

Drain the transmission fluid from the transmission pan. You will get more than six quarts if you let it drain for hours

Drain the rear end.

Remove the performance bar(the black tubular bar that is 27" long, and 1,1/2" thick)

Unplug the oxygen sensors, by pulling lightly on the wires, and with a standard blade screwdriver prying out on the locking clip. They should pop out easily.

Remove the complete exhaust system, from the muffler up to the factory cast headers. Don’t forget the ground wire at the right tailpipe.

Remove the complete driveshaft, including the carrier bearing.

Remove the four bolts,(vertical) two bolts at an angle (on the drivers side) holding the rear differential mount. There are also two nuts(horizontal) holding the rear end in..

You can slide the rear end away from the axles, one at a time.
Watch for very thin wire C clips on the axles. With the first axle, you might need to pry lightly on the axle flange to get it started. On the second one, you can use the rear end like a slide hammer to remove the rear from the axle.

Drive the roll-pins out of the axles,(near the front differential) with a drift pin, and remove the bolts that hold the lower ball joints to the steering knuckle.
Tap downward on the lower control arm, and pull out on the bottom of the front tires, (one at a time) this will pull the axles off of the differential stub shafts. Once off the stub shafts, you can let them hang out of the way.

Remove four of the six bolts, that hold the transmission mount to the body, remove the two bolts, and one nut that attach the rear transmission mount to the transmission.

Disconnect the transmission cable from the linkage (one clip, and two 10mm bolts)on the passenger side of the transmission. NOTE, if the bushing breaks, it’s ok to replace the bushing with a short piece of 5/16” fuel line.

Disconnect the transmission cooler lines on the drivers’ side of the transmission. Good luck with this.

Support the transmission with an appropriate jack. A 4EAT tranny weighs about 250 pounds, and can cut off a finger faster than you can say,”woops”.

Now that the back of the transmission is supported, you can remove the final two bolts holding the rear transmission to the body.

You can now remove the two bolts, and two nuts that bolt the transmission to the engine, thru the bellhousing.

You might have to jack up the front of the engine, to support it, and to allow clearance for the transmission to be removed.

Shake the transmission tailshaft while pulling it toward the rear of the car.

If you need to pry against the bellhousing, be careful not to dent or crush the power steering lines. If you have everything disconnected, the transmission should come out. BE CAREFUL.

NOTE, if you are just upgrading as a mod, use your SVX torque converter.
If your transmission is bad, then your SVX torque converter is probably contaminated, and you can use an 96-98 Legacy Outback torque converter.
They have been used successfully in the past.
DO NOT USE an Impreza torque converter! (unless it came from a 2.5 RS)
It is probably far to small for SVX HP levels.

Before you install the 4.44/4.11 transmission, remove the rear exhaust hanger and replace it with the SVX one, and remove the rear transmission mount and replace it with the SVX mount.

Install the SVX speed sensor.

Remove any gear shift bracket that does not match up to the SVX gear shift set up.

VERY IMPORTANT, When you install the torque converter that you are going to use, keep turning the torque converter until it fully seats.
When it is fully seated, the face of the mounting flanges are within 3/8” of an inch of the front of the bellhousing.
The face of the mounting flanges, are the flat surface that touches the flywheel.
So, if the engine side of the flanges are 3/8” above the bellhousing, then the back/transmission side is recessed into the bellhousing!
Be sure to use anti-seize on the two locating pins, at 3:00 and 9:00 on the engine/bellhousing mating surface.(And make sure there is only one pin per side)
Use anti-seize on the locating lug on the front, and in the center of the torque converter.
The installation is the reverse of the removal.

If you get a limited slip rear differential that has both the correct ratio, and five bolts on each side holding the side plates on, go ahead and install it.
This however has not happened to anyone I have heard of.

Note; Back in 2004 this was correct, but now there some LSD 4.44s available.
If you get an “open” rear differential, with no limited slip, then you have to convert your new open differential to a limited slip for two reasons. The first is so that your svx axles fit, and the second is so that your power doesn’t go up in wheel spin.

What I do is to use the replacement rear end housing, so that I would not have to mess with the pinion gear, or it’s preload.
Use the ring gear from the new rear end, but use the side plates, and carrier from the svx. You will have to do a little grinding on the left side of the housing opening, where the two humps are, so that the ring gear from the new rear end, and now mounted on the SVX carrier will clear.
You MUST use the longer bolts from the limited slip SVX rear end to mount the 4.44/4.11 ring gear to the LSD carrier.
I use the shims from the SVX housing but you have to check the backlash, and pattern before you install them into the car.

A Better Rear Write-up.
Originally Posted by svxfiles
Put both, the stock svx differential, and the Legacy/Forester donor differential, on the clean work bench.

(IT MUST HAVE 5 BOLT SIDE PLATES)

Do they look the same?

Are the driveshaft flanges the same size?

If they are different sizes, mark and remove them, putting the svx driveshaft flange onto the Legacy/Forester donor differential. Torque the driveshaft flange nut to 125-145 ft/lb

Put the differentials, with the driveshaft flanges facing away from you, on the work bench.

Remove the rear differential covers.(eight bolts)

One differential at a time, mark and remove the four 5 bolt side plates.

When you take them off, there are flat spacers(shims)between the aluminum side plates and the steel differential housing.

Keep the two(for example)shims from the right side(passenger side) of the svx differential, with the svx right side plate/bearing cup.

And the one, two or three shims(for example)from the svx left,(drivers side)with the left side side plate/bearing cup.

From the svx, take the limited slip carrier, and carrier bearings, as a unit, and remove the svx 3.545 ratio ring gear. Use an impact wrench if you have one.

From the Legacy donor differential, remove the ring gear and carrier, carrier bearings as an assembly.

From this assembly, remove the 4.11, or 4.44 ratio ring gear.

Take the 4.11, or 4.44 ring gear, and install it on the limited slip svx carrier assembly. Torque to 69-83 ft/lb

On the left side of the legacy differential housing, there are two "bumps" inside the housing opening.

File, or grind these bumps for clearance, so that the Legacy ring gear, now mounted on the svx carrier will pass into place in the donor housing. Protect the inside of the differential with rags to keep it clean.
Rinse it out with gear oil, after you are done grinding or filing.

Take the svx side plates, the svx shims, and the O-rings, and carefully install them onto the Legacy housing, in the same manner as they were installed on the svx housing.

Take your time, oil the bearings, bearing cups, and gears. Be gentle.

Torque the side plates to 6.5-8.7 ft/lb.

Turn the axle flange and feel for binding, drag, or roughness.

There should be "a little bit of play" or backlash, between the ring gear, and the pinion gear.

The backlash should be 0.0039-0.0079"

With the differential as is, take it to a "rear end specialist" to set up the rear end.

He will "pattern the gears" for a fee and adjust if necessary.

If you are comfortable with the feel of them as they are, install the rear cover plate and torque the 8 bolts to 18-25 ft/lb.

Don't forget to add gear oil after you install it.
Be aware that your speedometer will read about 5.5% higher than the actual vehicle speed.

[NeedForSpeed]

All this from the reigning 4.44 king. Follow his advice closely, he's done a bunch of them.

Thanks SVXfiles!

[Chiketkd]

Originally Posted by NeedForSpeed

All this from the reigning 4.44 king. Follow his advice closely, he's done a bunch of them.

Thanks SVXfiles!

Svxfiles was definitely the man that paved the way for the 4.44 transmission swap! He and SVX-FF were the first two people to ever successfully complete a 4.11/4.44 swap into our cars!!!

-Chike

[svxfiles]

Originally Posted by NeedForSpeed

All this from the reigning 4.44 king. Follow his advice closely, he's done a bunch of them.

Thanks SVXfiles!

Wow, thank's.






It's good to be King...

[svxfiles]

Here is a more detailed how to on the rear ends;
Originally Posted by svxfiles
Put both, the stock svx differential, and the Legacy/Forester donor differential, on the clean work bench.

(IT MUST HAVE 5 BOLT SIDE PLATES)

Do they look the same?

Are the driveshaft flanges the same size?

If they are different sizes, mark and remove them, putting the svx driveshaft flange onto the Legacy/Forester donor differential. Torque the driveshaft flange nut to 125-145 ft/lb

Put the differentials, with the driveshaft flanges facing away from you, on the work bench.

Remove the rear differential covers.(eight bolts)

One differential at a time, mark and remove the four 5 bolt side plates.

When you take them off, there are flat spacers(shims)between the aluminum side plates and the steel differential housing.

Keep the two(for example)shims from the right side(passenger side) of the svx differential, with the svx right side plate/bearing cup.

And the one, two or three shims(for example)from the svx left,(drivers side)with the left side side plate/bearing cup.

From the svx, take the limited slip carrier, and carrier bearings, as a unit, and remove the svx 3.545 ratio ring gear. Use an impact wrench if you have one.

From the Legacy donor differential, remove the ring gear and carrier, carrier bearings as an assembly.

From this assembly, remove the 4.11, or 4.44 ratio ring gear.

Take the 4.11, or 4.44 ring gear, and install it on the limited slip svx carrier assembly. Torque to 69-83 ft/lb

On the left side of the legacy differential housing, there are two "bumps" inside the housing opening.

File, or grind these bumps for clearance, so that the Legacy ring gear, now mounted on the svx carrier will pass into place in the donor housing. Protect the inside of the differential with rags to keep it clean.
Rinse it out with gear oil, after you are done grinding or filing.

Take the svx side plates, the svx shims, and the O-rings, and carefully install them onto the Legacy housing, in the same manner as they were installed on the svx housing.

Take your time, oil the bearings, bearing cups, and gears. Be gentle.

Torque the side plates to 6.5-8.7 ft/lb.

Turn the axle flange and feel for binding, drag, or roughness.

There should be "a little bit of play" or backlash, between the ring gear, and the pinion gear.

The backlash should be 0.0039-0.0079"

With the differential as is, take it to a "rear end specialist" to set up the rear end.

He will "pattern the gears" for a fee and adjust if necessary.

If you are comfortable with the feel of them as they are, install the rear cover plate and torque the 8 bolts to 18-25 ft/lb.

Don't forget to add gear oil after you install it.

[rob_4187]

Originally Posted by svxfiles

Quote:
svxfiles wrote on 11-16-2004 08:13 AM:
4.11/4.44 transmission swap

While it’s on the ground, disconnect the battery, and remove the starter from the car, if you leave it under the hood it will find a way to jam against the bellhousing.

Remove the alternator and belt. This allows you to access the four 14mm torque converter bolts. I used a two foot long 3/8” extension with the socket taped to the extension, so that it would not pull off.

Remove the plastic airbox that attaches to the throttle body. This allows access to the two round, and two square electrical plugs, that must be disconnected.

Disconnect the three wire connector to the svx speed sensor, located on the passenger side of the transmission, behind the bellhousing.

Remove the upper transmission mount, it’s the dog bone shaped mount that goes from the firewall to the top of the bellhousing.

Jack up the svx to where you can work on it safely, Use a garage lift if possible.

Drain the transmission fluid from the transmission pan. You will get more than six quarts if you let it drain for hours

Drain the rear end.

Unplug the oxygen sensors, by pulling lightly on the wires, and with a standard blade screwdriver prying out on the locking clip. They should pop out easily.

Remove the complete exhaust system, from the muffler up to the factory cast headers. Don’t forget the ground wire at the right tailpipe.

Remove the complete driveshaft, including the carrier bearing.

There four bolts,(vertical) and two nuts(horizontal) holding the rear end in..

You can slide the rear end away from the axles, one at a time. Watch for very thin wire C clips on the axles. With the first axle, you might need to pry lightly on the axle flange to get it started. On the second one, you can use the rear end like a slide hammer to remove the rear from the axle.

Drive the roll-pins out of the axles,(near the front differential) and remove the bolts that hold the lower ball joints to the steering knuckle. Tap downward on the lower control arm, and pull out on the bottom of the front tires, (one at a time) this will pull the axles off of the differential stub shafts. Once off the stub shafts, you can let them hang out of the way.

Remove the one inch thick tubular bar that connects the left and right frame rails, located behind the front differential, and in front of the transmission pan.

Remove the six bolts, and one nut that attach the rear transmission mount.

Disconnect the transmission cable from the linkage on the passenger side of the transmission. NOTE, if the bushing breaks, it’s ok to replace the bushing with a short piece of 5/16” fuel line.

Disconnect the transmission cooler lines on the drivers’ side of the transmission. Good luck with this.

Support the transmission with an appropriate jack. A 4EAT tranny weighs about 250 pounds, and can cut off a finger faster than you can say,”woops”.

You can now remove the two bolts, and two nuts that bolt the transmission to the engine, thru the bellhousing.

You might have to jack up the front of the engine, to support it, and to allow clearance for the transmission to be removed.

Shake the transmission tailshaft while pulling it toward the rear of the car.

If you need to pry against the bellhousing, be careful not to dent or crush the power steering lines. If you have everything disconnected, the transmission should come out. BE CAREFUL.

NOTE, if you are just upgrading as a mod, use your svx torque converter. If your transmission is bad, then your svx torque converter is probably contaminated, and you can use an 96-98 Legacy Outback torque converter. They have been used successfully in the past. DO NOT USE an Impreza torque converter! It is probably far to small for svx HP levels.

Before you install the 4.44/4.11 transmission, remove the rear mount and replace it with the svx mount.

Install the svx speed sensor.

Remove any gear shift bracket that does not match up to the svx gear shift set up.

VERY IMPORTANT, When you install the torque converter that you are going to use, keep turning the torque converter until it fully seats. When it is fully seated, the face of the mounting flanges are within 3/8” of an inch of the front of the bellhousing. The face of the mounting flanges, are the flat surface that touches the flywheel. So, if the engine side of the flanges are 3/8” above the bellhousing, than the back/transmission side is recessed into the bellhousing!
The installation is the reverse of the removal.

If you get a limited slip rear differential that has both the correct ratio, and five bolts on each side holding the side plates on, go ahead and install it.

If you get an “open” rear differential, with no limited slip, then you have to convert your new open differential to a limited slip for two reasons. The first is so that your svx axles fit, and the second is so that your power doesn’t go up in wheel spin.

What I did, was to use the replacement rear end housing, so that I would not have to mess with the pinion gear, or it’s preload. Use the ring gear from the new rear end, but use the side plates, and carrier from the svx. You will have to do a little grinding on the left side of the housing opening, where the two humps are, so that the ring gear from the new rear end, and now mounted on the svx carrier will clear. I used the shims from the svx housing and have not yet had a problem. Just feel for clearance, and make sure there is a little play in the ring to pinion. You do not want any roughness or any binding. Too loose is much better than too tight.

Wow...that should do. Thanks alot

[green_eyed_lady]

Originally Posted by svxfiles

Here is a more detailed how to on the rear ends....

Wouldn't it be easier to post this in your locker?

[svxfiles]

Originally Posted by green_eyed_lady

Wouldn't it be easier to post this in your locker?

Di, could you fix it for me?

[Bobb]

Hi Rob, Before you start spending real money, take a look at the "Flex Plate". It goes between the engine and the transmission. They frequently crack and give a clanging noise. I had to replace the one on my SVX. It cost about eighty bucks from the dealer. I would not by a used one. Take care, BOBB

[Earthworm]

Originally Posted by green_eyed_lady

Wouldn't it be easier to post this in your locker?

...or on the SVXipedia at http://svx-iw.com/