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#196
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Re: Engine Bearing Failure
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Thanks for the summary. Aerated oil and bearing life never mix well Bill
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Retired NASA Rocket Scientist Most famous NASA "Child" - OSIRIS-REx delivered samples from asteroid BENNU to Earth in Sept. 2023 Center Network Member #989 '92 Fully caged, 5 speed, waiting for its fully built EG33 '92 "Test Mule", 4:44 Auto, JDM 4:44 Rear Diff with Mech LSD, Tuned headers, Full one-off suspension '92(?) Laguna, 6 spd and other stuff (still at OT's place) My Locker |
#197
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Re: Engine Bearing Failure
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#198
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Re: Engine Bearing Failure
Sorry to jump in for Tom Bazza but I asked a couple of the drag guys if they every had issues with our engine over heating and they said there isn't enough time for it to be a problem. So if that's case on cooling does it apply the bearings as well?????
Tony
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1995 - SVX 700,000 K Mine, DMS Struts to lift car 2in. Tyres Wrangler Silent Armor 235/70R16, PBR Radiator. 6 speed with DCCD and R180 rer diff, Heavy duty top strut mounts front and rear. Speedo correction box fitted. New stero (gave up on the old one). Back seat removed and 2 spare tyres fitted for desert driving. ECUTune SC sitting in the box for the next SVX. 1992 - SVX 255 K Wife (Want to stay Married so not allowed to fit SC) 1992 - SVX Pearl with black roof race car roll cauge etc ready to race. Ex Tasman Targa car. 1995 - SVX Green low k mint condiation. 1995 - SVX Rally car, ex Matts car. Now to be used on track. 1992 - SVX red & Black being converted to Mid Engine. 1995 - SVX Red 143,000 bit rough. Owned 5 others Subaru back to a 1974 1400 GSR. |
#199
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Re: Engine Bearing Failure
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Now if you look at the video I posted and research the owner, he doesn't do drag racing only - seems to do a variety of events. And in that video he accelerates for a huge amount of time, I get about 20 seconds. After you're testing - you didn't see cavitation after 10 seconds, you saw it instantly and you said it only took 30 seconds to boil. "It was so bad that in 3rd gear the test lasted about 30 seconds before the engine boiled" - that's with 200 hp in 3rd gear (110 kph). Now imagine what happens with 700 hp and twin turbos attached which is also heating the water up with the car accelerating to 230 odd kph?! It's going to get DAM hot if there is any weakness in the cooling system. Also having done some 500 drag runs personally so I can speak from experience and you do see the water get hotter at the end of the run in any EJ. Also with those EG's that did the drag racing - were they going off actual ECU temp or the gauge display? Anyway I don't understand why he doesn't overheat - maybe he has the oil cooler version of the SVX pump with the extra pump inlet - although he did mention no thermostat. Now with the bearings, drag racing is rather brutal, usually because unless you're one of the big boys with electric heaters and proper setups, everything is often cold on the staging line - oil temps in engine, gearbox and diffs - which obviously isn't ideal for the bearings. Last edited by bazza; 08-28-2012 at 07:02 PM. |
#200
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Re: Engine Bearing Failure
Also does anyone actually have a list of the EG33 bearing failures? I think it needs to be published here. Every single engine, mods, fuel and so forth.
I made this up on the RLSC to prove that stock engines or stock Subaru bottom ends were far better than people realised. It also showed the running engines with mods and no aftermarket ecu usually ended in a quick death. This is what we need for the EG33 so we can understand it better rather than a couple of theories. I of course agree we need a dry sump and there are issues with the oiling that need solving - however having this list will certainly reduce the unknowns. Built engines: EJ207 (V5 STI, open deck), forged, ARPs, 225-245 kw atw over 30,000 kms. Failed within 2,500 kms (cometic head gaskets) replaced with stock units. Revved to 8500 rpm. Aftermarket ecu tuned to suit. EJ255 (USDM), MY98 heads, forgies, rods possibly to long, AVO head studs (used). Did head gasket (AA610's)at 25psi boost. Head stud nut thread failed. Fuel pump fail damaged big end. Motor did 19275 klms before rebuild. Aftermarket ecu tuned to suit. EJ257 (2007 ADM) with LA sleeves + forgies + re-used ARPs + ACL HX's bearings, 245 kw atw over ~35,000 kms. 28 psi boost. Ring land fail. Revved to 8000 rpm. Stock ecu tuned to suit. EJ20 block with darton sleeves (2.2L), TD06SL2 making >250 kw atw. Bad tune on aftermarket ecu caused catastrophic failure. Issues with ongoing water loss after rebuild, cause unknown. EJ235, rebuilt 3 x times over 3 years trying to get a stable base. Finally starting to be reliable @ 300 kw however only 10,000 kms on the block to date. Stock ecu reflashed to suit. EJ22, many forged mods, 200-250 kw atw, cracked bore, overboosted, issue with wiring melting, ghetto close deck mods. Aftermarket ecu not tuned for overboost condition or cold starts. EJ22NA, many forged mods, tuned to 19 psi, driver overboosted to 24 psi, 250+ kw atw, cracked bore, after market ecu had no summer air temp compensation, driver kept driving whilst engine kept pinging. EJ257 unopened + CP pistons, lots mods, 230-250 kw atw with AVO400L, rod out of the block at ~65,000 kms, lotsa abuse. EJ255 unopened + CPs. V7 heads, stocky headgaskets, arp studs (new). 180-230kw . Stock ecu tuned to suit. Still running @ ~15,000kms. Torn down at ~30thousand due to excessive blow by + low compression. EJ257 unopened. CP pistons. td06-20G @ 22psi daily. 250kw atw for 50,000km. Never blows smoke, never uses oil. Aftermarket ecu tuned to suit. Still running EJ257 unopened MY07 CPs + re-used ARPs, 225-280 kw atw, 65,000 kms. Only noticeable damage was pistons nearly catching the bore and therefore a few scratches. Revved to 8500 rpm. Aftermarket ecu tuned to suit 98RON. Was running fine up to refresh. EJ257, forged everything, 2.5L NA heads, 280 kw atw, 50,000 kms+?, stock bores, GT35R, this engine defined abuse! Aftermarket ecu tuned to suit. Bores a bit ovalled. Still going when pulled down. Rebuilt stocky engines with stocky parts: EJ20 (RS JDM) with JDM auto stock ECU - lasted 15,000 kms with usual mods. Blew head gasket and a ring land running a TD05h to 16 psi. Running 98RON with stock JDM ecu. MY97 GTB motor, which I pulled down, replaced bearings, inspected all parts, then put back together. Did 50,000kms then blew headgasket. Has done 10+ track days as well. VF23 running 19psi, MicroTech ECU, and always used 100octane fuel at the track. Headgaskets have been replaced and motor is running again in the track car. MY93 RS ADM motor, rebuilt @ 200k by Subaru with stock RS parts. Car run stock until i bought it at 300k so motor had done 100k now runs with VF22 @ 1bar with VOS chipped AUS RS ECU - 160kw's still going strong after 50k with track days and red line abuse use's **** all oil and blows smoke only as it's running super rich. Stocky motors including imports: EJ20G VF30/FMIC/TBE V2 STI RA ECU ~19psi= Piston Ring EJ20R TT/TBE JDM ECU "Built" by MRT ~18psi = Big End Bearing EJ20R TT/TBE/RAILS/FPR JDM ECU "Built" by MRT ~25psi = Cracked Bore, Mashed Valves/Piston MY96 JDM EJ20 with JDM ECU - lasted 10,000 kms with TD05h running 16 psi. Blew ring land. Running 98RON with stock JDM (auto) ecu. EJ20 (MY96 WRX) VF23, TBE, RS ECU, 16-18psi. Motor now has very low compression in 1 cylinder, suspected ringland or valve EJ207 (V7 JDM) - Scuffing in all 4 bores. Bearings were fine. Ran with stock V7 JDM ecu on 98RON and FMIC / TBE / CAI / VF30. Original MAF housing not used, replaced with aftermarket MAF housing, no re-tune to suit. Mixtures and timing never checked for safety. EJ20G (MY95 WRX) , V2 sti ra ecu td05 20psi did a head gasket. EJ20 (MY95 V2 STi RA) 380cc injectors, Haltech E11, TD05 @ 18psi, parallel fuel rails, FMIC, 3" exhaust. 90,000km on motor when I got it. 98RON. Bearing fail. Bad tune possibly causing cat to block to cause backpressure to cause bearing fail - or bad tune full stop?! EJ20K 96 V3 sti JDM engine, prova chipped ecu, vf23 20-24psi, Died a horrible death, HG's and very bad internal noises, found the bin. EJ20 (RS ADM), 190kw VF34, ~30,000kms. Camshaft bolt snapped and timing skipped bending valves. No damage to pistons, rods or bearings. EJ20 (JDM RS) Various Subie turbos, Haltech ECU, ~18psi, Lasted > 100Kkms (on top of 100Kkms when I bought it). Seized water pump caused the belt to skip. No damage to pistons, rods or bearings. EJ20G JDM Legacy motor - vf28, fmic and 17psi daily. Did a total of 105,000km. Mines STI RA ecu Still running. EJ20 (MY02 JDM GTB TT) with TD06h-20G, 200+ laps at track, est 180-230 kw atw. Aftermarket ecu tuned to suit. Still running. EJ20 (MY00 JDM GTB TT) with BBK20G running 24 psi, 240 kw atw. Stock ecu timing, microtech for E85 fueling. Still running. EJ20 (RS JDM) 24 psi for a long time with PowerFC / VF34P20. Still running. EJ20 (RS JDM), 24 psi through TD06h-20G and VF23 and proper ecu management. Still running. EJ20 (ADM RS) VF23 @ 18psi, 180kw, RS ECU, motor had done 150,000kms when I got it, did another 30-40,000kms. Still running when removed. EJ20 (MY94 RS JDM) - 112k on it when I bought it. Did another 10,000 kms. Proper aftermarket ecu with tune to suit. VF30 @ 20 psi. Still running. EJ20G (RS Engine) vf12, stock ecu 15 psi, then td05 v2 sti ra ecu 22psi - Still running when removed. EJ20K 96 STI engine, Mines tuned chipped ecu,VF23 22PSI, Still running when removed. EJ20k 97 STI engine, Power FC, VF23 22PSI, Still running when removed. EJ20G 95 V2 sti ra Engine, Bozz speed chipped ECU, VF23 22psi Still running when removed. EJ20G 95 WRX RA Engine, Mines Chipped ECU, VF22 24PSI Still running when removed. EJ20K 96 V3 sti engine, prova chipped ecu, vf23 20-24psi Still running when removed. EJ20G 95 V2 RA engine, VF23, Prova ecu, 22psi Still running when removed. EJ20 JDM RS legacy motor. Did another 25,000 stock with variety of turbos. 140kw. Still running when removed. EJ20 (MY93 RS ADM), TD05, TBE, RS ECU etc, 17-18psi, 98 RON fuel. Did another 40,000km. MRT chip in there which saw very lean mixtures. Still running when removed. MY95 V2 STi RA motor, PE1820 clone @19psi. Lasted 15,000km. Run on 98RON and Mobil 10w40 diesel oil, aftermarket ecu tuned to suit. Still running when removed. MY96 JDM WRX motor, VF23 @ 16psi, TBE, mods etc. Run on 98 RON. Still running when removed. EJ207 (stock) + V3 heads, 100K, lots boost. Aftermarket ecu tuned to suit -~200atw, happy to rev past 8K. Still running when removed. EJ205 ADM JDM STI v6 RA ECU, VF29, 17 psi. 165kwatw. 5000km, still running EJ20 (94WRX) vf34p20, mods, v2 sti ra ecu, 189.9kw (18psi), still running EJ255 (04 fozza) gtps03, mods, stock ecu tuned to suit, 211.8kw (18psi), still running EJ20G VF12/FMIC/TBE WRX ECU still running EJ25 VF46/TBE ADM ECU, still running EJ20 (JDM RS motor) TD05/VF34 22psi, tracked, dragged and hillclimbed. Aftermarket ecu tuned to suit. Still running. EJ20G (MY95 WRX) VF35, 18psi, V3 sti ecu bought with 110k, still running EJ255 (06 ADM WRX) GTPS02 @ 18psi, 152,192km currently (20k modded) doesn't use a drop of oil, smooth as. Stock ECU reflashed. Still running. Last edited by bazza; 08-28-2012 at 07:04 PM. |
#201
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Re: Engine Bearing Failure
Good point, not sure how many of us with engines out here left, but I get your point.
Tony
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1995 - SVX 700,000 K Mine, DMS Struts to lift car 2in. Tyres Wrangler Silent Armor 235/70R16, PBR Radiator. 6 speed with DCCD and R180 rer diff, Heavy duty top strut mounts front and rear. Speedo correction box fitted. New stero (gave up on the old one). Back seat removed and 2 spare tyres fitted for desert driving. ECUTune SC sitting in the box for the next SVX. 1992 - SVX 255 K Wife (Want to stay Married so not allowed to fit SC) 1992 - SVX Pearl with black roof race car roll cauge etc ready to race. Ex Tasman Targa car. 1995 - SVX Green low k mint condiation. 1995 - SVX Rally car, ex Matts car. Now to be used on track. 1992 - SVX red & Black being converted to Mid Engine. 1995 - SVX Red 143,000 bit rough. Owned 5 others Subaru back to a 1974 1400 GSR. |
#202
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Re: Engine Bearing Failure
I had a thought (which is a really bad idea)
Some people don't or can't go to dry sumps so why don't we just over fill the oil so we still have enough when 4 litres stays in the heads, Can some one tell me why not???? What bad things happen if we do that??? If we think it will fly then I will move the volume up on my test car. Tony
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1995 - SVX 700,000 K Mine, DMS Struts to lift car 2in. Tyres Wrangler Silent Armor 235/70R16, PBR Radiator. 6 speed with DCCD and R180 rer diff, Heavy duty top strut mounts front and rear. Speedo correction box fitted. New stero (gave up on the old one). Back seat removed and 2 spare tyres fitted for desert driving. ECUTune SC sitting in the box for the next SVX. 1992 - SVX 255 K Wife (Want to stay Married so not allowed to fit SC) 1992 - SVX Pearl with black roof race car roll cauge etc ready to race. Ex Tasman Targa car. 1995 - SVX Green low k mint condiation. 1995 - SVX Rally car, ex Matts car. Now to be used on track. 1992 - SVX red & Black being converted to Mid Engine. 1995 - SVX Red 143,000 bit rough. Owned 5 others Subaru back to a 1974 1400 GSR. |
#203
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Re: Engine Bearing Failure
Tony if I am not mistaken, the additional oil will cause additional internal engine pressure. This will result in messing up all rubber seals...
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Danny 1994 Silver SVX in hybernation, awaiting for the monsterous awakening (Lebanon) 1967 Mercedes-Benz 250SL Euro Specs, Hard/Softtop, White/Red. Under Complete Restoration 2013 Mercedes-Benz SL350 Euro Specs, White/Red. Mint... Another step into SL Collection. |
#204
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Re: Engine Bearing Failure
I have measured the sump and it will take 9l full, that still isn't enough to hit the bottom of the piston but should be okay.
Danny I understand thats what people say but tell me how its a issue in our engines, I just don't see it. Think about this if a race car doesn't have foam in the tank does it cavitate when the tank is full or when it has heaps of air. Its when the tank has airspace. Fill the sump up with more oil even if you lose a bit in the heads there will be plenty left to feed to pump. So guys why won't it work???????? Tony
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1995 - SVX 700,000 K Mine, DMS Struts to lift car 2in. Tyres Wrangler Silent Armor 235/70R16, PBR Radiator. 6 speed with DCCD and R180 rer diff, Heavy duty top strut mounts front and rear. Speedo correction box fitted. New stero (gave up on the old one). Back seat removed and 2 spare tyres fitted for desert driving. ECUTune SC sitting in the box for the next SVX. 1992 - SVX 255 K Wife (Want to stay Married so not allowed to fit SC) 1992 - SVX Pearl with black roof race car roll cauge etc ready to race. Ex Tasman Targa car. 1995 - SVX Green low k mint condiation. 1995 - SVX Rally car, ex Matts car. Now to be used on track. 1992 - SVX red & Black being converted to Mid Engine. 1995 - SVX Red 143,000 bit rough. Owned 5 others Subaru back to a 1974 1400 GSR. |
#205
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Re: Engine Bearing Failure
This is something that is done sometimes on other engines. The Toyota 3vzfe I did some reading about on their forums for a while (for the v6 mr2 project), and I found that overfilling oil by even a couple of quarts is pretty common.
The only issue I can really think of with the EG is that on hard turns the extra oil will overflow into the heads. If it's ok for the heads to have the extra oil in them then I think it will be ok. I don't know about where the oil moves to under hard braking or hard acceleration, but that would be worth checking out. Basically as long as you are thinking of the engine as part of the dynamic moving vehicle, and account for where the extra oil might go, then I think it's definitely an idea worth pursuing. I accidentally overfilled one of mine once by mistake (miscounted bottles and put an extra quart) and didn't notice anything different, but that was just under normal spirited driving conditions. I am going to do some research online as to whether the EJ guys have tried this and to what effect, and report back. I have another idea actually, that I'm going to throw out there even if it turns out to be a crappy idea. What if we put a flexible tube on the oil pickup, so that whichever direction the oil sloshes toward, the pickup would also swing toward?
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'94 Laguna Blue LSi ~159k.......JDM ultra short-geared 3.900 STi Version 7 6-speed w/ Cobb shortshifter, ECUtune 244,8.1mm/256,9.1mm i/e cams, group N motor mounts, '97 grille, JDM clear corners, Momo JDM Legacy GT steering wheel, apkarian's LED tails, silver STi BBS wheels, PWR radiator, redstuff pads f/r, drilled/slotted rotors, bontragerworks rsb #18, Koni/GC 450f/375r coilovers, Megan Racing adjustable lateral links, KMac c/c plates, Stebro exhaust, ECUtune 1v5, Optima battery in the trunk where it belongs. Turbo project '97 Ebony LSi ~137k #036.......Power mode mod, JDM clear corners, BBS wheels. AUX/pocket mod Now a mod "over there" ............Photo album |
#206
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Re: Engine Bearing Failure
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As soon as you've racing you've got a fair bit of oil in the heads - the EG33 can have up to 5L in the heads, which means you've only got 2-3L left in the sump! |
#207
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Re: Engine Bearing Failure
I don't think that would happen. The rubber seals are the oil seal up front, rear main, cam shafts and rocker covers. None of these will be effected with a little more pressure - and you get a heap more pressure from blowby anyway.
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#208
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Re: Engine Bearing Failure
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So you don't think the extra oil sloshing around in the heads would be an issue? What about it sloshing front/rearward under braking/acceleration?
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'94 Laguna Blue LSi ~159k.......JDM ultra short-geared 3.900 STi Version 7 6-speed w/ Cobb shortshifter, ECUtune 244,8.1mm/256,9.1mm i/e cams, group N motor mounts, '97 grille, JDM clear corners, Momo JDM Legacy GT steering wheel, apkarian's LED tails, silver STi BBS wheels, PWR radiator, redstuff pads f/r, drilled/slotted rotors, bontragerworks rsb #18, Koni/GC 450f/375r coilovers, Megan Racing adjustable lateral links, KMac c/c plates, Stebro exhaust, ECUtune 1v5, Optima battery in the trunk where it belongs. Turbo project '97 Ebony LSi ~137k #036.......Power mode mod, JDM clear corners, BBS wheels. AUX/pocket mod Now a mod "over there" ............Photo album |
#209
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Re: Engine Bearing Failure
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#210
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Re: Engine Bearing Failure
The main problem with the EG33 is that it is flat, and the oil is only 2" from the top of the engine, where the breathers are. Standard they blow oil mist up the rear vent, to fill the air delivery pipe, back to the air cleaner element.
With a higher level the situation will become worst. Under acceleration the oil will surge to the rear of the pan to fill the separation chamber and into the air pipe. Cornering surge will have it flow up the cam cover drains to fill this space. So either a well baffled pan, or a dry sump, has to be the answer. Harvey.
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One Arm Bloke. Tell it like it is! 95 Lsi. Bordeaux Pearl, Aust. RHD.149,000Kls Subaru BBS wheels. 97 Liberty GX Auto sedan. 320,000Kls. 04 Liberty 30R Auto Premium. 92.000kls. |
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