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  #16  
Old 06-16-2004, 07:32 AM
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just to be an unfathomable pain in the ass, I'll say my '90 CRX Si was quite a good performance car. I could get as much oversteer as I wanted by left foot braking. Hell, I spun out in the snow a couple times because of lift-throttle oversteer. just trying to slow down around a curve and the rear end whips out.

I was at ice races up in NH, and I was pulling better times around the course than many 2.5RSs and WRXs. It was quite a capable machine, and made more use of the power that Honda saw fit to give it (110 war-mongering horsies) than any other car I've driven. it made up for torque with gearing. disc brakes all around, double wishbone suspension, decent weight distribution given the layout. It might be FWD, but it's still a good performance car. CRXs have a reputation at most road courses for being cars to watch out for. Under SCCA regs, It runs in GS and CSP IIRC. same classes as Miatas, which most people will call a "sports car" or "performance car." at least most people that go to auto-x or track days.

It's early, I have no coffeem, and I'm bored. so deal. devil's advocate and whatnot. I'll always be a boxer/AWD guy.
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Last edited by IggDawg; 06-16-2004 at 07:36 AM.
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  #17  
Old 06-16-2004, 08:23 AM
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Thanks for coming to the defense of the CRX IggDawg. I agree that it's a great little car, and my 89 CRX Si is at least as fast as my SVX, if not slightly faster, and handles even better, at least as long as it isn't raining out. Of course, my CRX is far from stock with a B16 swap and a nice expensive suspension set up for autocross. My fiancee and I have a total of three of them, an 88 HF, 88 Si (hers), and my 89 Si.

Why are you getting rid of yours? I don't think I could ever sell mine, but then I get attached to my cars pretty easily... I love my CRX, love my SVX, really like my classic SE-R, and I'm really falling for the Porsche 944 I picked up over the weekend.
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  #18  
Old 06-16-2004, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by IggDawg
.... the funny part (yeah, there's still more funny) was that I mentioned that DSMs were quick cars, just to make him feel better (even though I don't think of the newer eclipses as "DSM"s per se). he asked me what a DSM was. hrm.....


I ... Uhm....eeeh.... don't know what a "DSM" is ...


okokok....laugh if you want....



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  #19  
Old 06-16-2004, 09:31 AM
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No reason why you would have encountered one since you live in Sweden. DSM stands for 'Diamond Star Motors' and is used to refer to three cars that were built by Mitsubishi Motors in the '90's - Mitsu Eclipse, Eagle Talon and Plymouth Laser.

The most desirable DSM are the AWD turbo'd models. Some DSM's have been known to do 11 sec passes in the 1/4 while still being streetable. DSM's also use the 4G63 engine thats also used the Mitsu Evo.

-Chike
Quote:
Originally posted by Sonar
I ... Uhm....eeeh.... don't know what a "DSM" is ...
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  #20  
Old 06-16-2004, 09:33 AM
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maybe it's a US term? it stands for "diamond star motors". The first 2 generations of mitsubishi eclipse/eagle talon variants are refered to as a "DSM". the dodge stealth/mitsu 3000gt are also refered to as DSM sometimes. these cars were basically clones sold under different badges, so the the "DSM" label is used since it's irrelavent to specify between eagle or mitsu. or something like that . Also, I think there was a box like the coil pack or something against the firewall that had "DSM" in big letters in the engine bay, which also helped popularize the term. I'm sure an actual DSM owner might have more info on it. "the funny" in the previous post is that anyone doing any serious tuning on a mitsubishi eclipse should really know what DSM means. it's hard to get into a car without picking up the lingo and learning a little history just through conversation.
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  #21  
Old 06-16-2004, 09:46 AM
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A girl in my office owns a small dealership with her husband, and she just got a red '95 Eclipse GSX. Told her it was a sweet DSM and she looked at me like I was talking double dutch!

You'd be surprised at the number of owners who have never heard the term or don't know what it means...

-Chike
Quote:
Originally posted by IggDawg
"the funny" in the previous post is that anyone doing any serious tuning on a mitsubishi eclipse should really know what DSM means. it's hard to get into a car without picking up the lingo and learning a little history just through conversation.
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  #22  
Old 06-16-2004, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by UberRoo
I believe the weight and space savings were significant factors, but there must have been a great number of other factors involved to facilitate the introduction of FWD.
Yeah, back in the late 70s, Americans got hip to the superiority of thrifty, imported FWD cars and began shunning the inefficient, RWD junk Detroit was inflicting on the motoring public.

(I'll never forgive my first wife for buying that Chevette.)

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  #23  
Old 06-16-2004, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by shoden

Why are you getting rid of yours? I don't think I could ever sell mine, but then I get attached to my cars pretty easily... I love my CRX, love my SVX, really like my classic SE-R, and I'm really falling for the Porsche 944 I picked up over the weekend.
it's a wonderful car, and I'd love to keep it as a track beater. Parking is an issue though. I had to move recently, and now I only get one parking space. I moved the CRX to my parents place, and they want it gone. I'm not going ot pay to store it, so the only option left is to sell it. =sucks. I really liked that car.
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  #24  
Old 06-16-2004, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by IggDawg

Parking is an issue though. I had to move recently, and now I only get one parking space. I moved the CRX to my parents place, and they want it gone.
I understand completely. We live in an apartment, and we're only supposed to have parking for two cars... one in the garage, and one in the parking lot. However, since most of our neighbors have garages full of junk and park both cars outside, we can get away with doing the same, and still keep one in the garage too.

Still, that's only parking for three cars, so my other vehicles end up parked at my parents' house. They want the beat up old truck gone, but they're much more understanding of the CRX and SE-R.

I can't wait till we can build our dream house with garage space for around a dozen or so cars

As for an Eclipse owner, let alone an "enthusiast", not knowing what a DSM is, that's just sad.
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  #25  
Old 06-16-2004, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by UberRoo


Yes, I am saying that the FWD SVX fits into the same category as all other FWD cars. I cannot fathom buying one. If you're using it to commute daily, it's not the most fuel-efficient choice of vehicle, but it'll do the job. Just don't get any ideas about it being a performance vehicle. It will exhibit horrendous understeer under throttle, will not have the self-correcting oversteer abilities of the AWD version, and will have a slower start off the line - especially if you decide to do any engine work. I'm also rather conspicuously omitting any deficiencies that would be noticed in adverse traction conditions.

I do not understand why anyone would buy a FWD SVX only because I do not understand why the FWD version is better than the AWD version. We could quibble about fractions of a mile per gallon, or tenths of a second in the quarter mile, but the difference is negligible. I suppose some people are attracted to the car for reasons other than performance, and it does have other attractive features. Saving a few bucks by foregoing the AWD would appeal to the non-performance group, but it seems silly to spend serious money on such an expensive car and then get cheap on the one feature that really makes it better than most other cars.

I do understand that performance just doesn't appeal to some of us. That's the FWD group. Most FWD owners are content with some other brand of car, which is precisely why Subaru caters to people who are not content with FWD. You'll notice that Subaru also doesn't understand the appeal of FWD, as they no longer offer FWD as an option.

Regarding the introduction of FWD as a feature to reduce weight and increase interior space, I partly agree. At first, and possibly still today, they cost considerably more to produce than a RWD car. I believe the weight and space savings were significant factors, but there must have been a great number of other factors involved to facilitate the introduction of FWD. And yes, having weight over the front wheels does help with traction on those slippery days. It just works very unfavorably in more favorable weather. (Center of mass, inertia, balance shift, tire loading and all that.) Subaru has been producing some extremely neutral handling cars. The AWD SVX is not their finest work in that category, but the FWD version is a strong candidate for their worst example of neutral balance.

I'm comfortable contradicting myself. ...just so long as nobody notices.
I guess I have to respond to the implication that there are no real "performance" FWD cars worth having. Others have mentioned the great little CRX - definitely a performance (the SI version) FWD car that does really well in autocross or on road course tracks. The same for the old (and now the "new") Mini-Cooper. And don't forget the (now discontinued) Ford Focus SVT. Regarding the latter, my son runs one (a 2002 model) at autocross with me in the '97 SVX (AWD). Both of us are in G Stock, and he "usually" beats me - last week, by a second (50 to 51 sec runs). Of course, I am getting a bit "long in the tooth" and my reflexs aren't what they used to be - that's my story, and I'm sticking to it! And my "first SVX" was a '94 SVX, which I also autocrossed - and regularly beat my son in his '96 Firebird (considering SCCA indexing between classes). I firmly believe that the '94 FWD SVX autocrossed better than my current AWD SVX (except in the wet ). And yes, Subaru went to all AWD and no longer sells FWD cars - seems to me this was as much a "marketing" thing as anything else. It has certainly made Subaru unique in the automotive world, hasn't it?

So I guess my point is: as a general rule, yes, the average FWD car is a pretty poor performance choice, but a generalization like that does not hold water across the board (the same is true of the average RWD car too) - all one has to do is look at the results of SCCA autocrossing at the national level. Those boys (and girls) are going to run what will win, and they aren't all running RWD or AWD, are they?

Harry
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  #26  
Old 06-16-2004, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by UberRoo


Yes, I am saying that the FWD SVX fits into the same category as all other FWD cars. I cannot fathom buying one. If you're using it to commute daily, it's not the most fuel-efficient choice of vehicle, but it'll do the job. Just don't get any ideas about it being a performance vehicle. It will exhibit horrendous understeer under throttle, will not have the self-correcting oversteer abilities of the AWD version, and will have a slower start off the line - especially if you decide to do any engine work. I'm also rather conspicuously omitting any deficiencies that would be noticed in adverse traction conditions.

I do not understand why anyone would buy a FWD SVX only because I do not understand why the FWD version is better than the AWD version. We could quibble about fractions of a mile per gallon, or tenths of a second in the quarter mile, but the difference is negligible. I suppose some people are attracted to the car for reasons other than performance, and it does have other attractive features. Saving a few bucks by foregoing the AWD would appeal to the non-performance group, but it seems silly to spend serious money on such an expensive car and then get cheap on the one feature that really makes it better than most other cars.

I do understand that performance just doesn't appeal to some of us. That's the FWD group. Most FWD owners are content with some other brand of car, which is precisely why Subaru caters to people who are not content with FWD. You'll notice that Subaru also doesn't understand the appeal of FWD, as they no longer offer FWD as an option.

Regarding the introduction of FWD as a feature to reduce weight and increase interior space, I partly agree. At first, and possibly still today, they cost considerably more to produce than a RWD car. I believe the weight and space savings were significant factors, but there must have been a great number of other factors involved to facilitate the introduction of FWD. And yes, having weight over the front wheels does help with traction on those slippery days. It just works very unfavorably in more favorable weather. (Center of mass, inertia, balance shift, tire loading and all that.) Subaru has been producing some extremely neutral handling cars. The AWD SVX is not their finest work in that category, but the FWD version is a strong candidate for their worst example of neutral balance.

I'm comfortable contradicting myself. ...just so long as nobody notices.
Uh, last time I checked the fastest SVX's at the strip were FWD so you may want to rethink your performance statement. Also you say they're slower off the line? I'd have to disagree there as well. And with engine work (and traction work) I imagine it would be quite a bit faster. BTW, in a race, a difference of a fraction of a second is what counts.
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  #27  
Old 06-17-2004, 01:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by newsvx
Those boys (and girls) are going to run what will win, and they aren't all running RWD or AWD, are they?
No, they're running whatever car they're fond of. They try to make their "baby" run as fast at it can. You see a lot of cars out there that just aren't naturally suited to going fast.

Every single top class racing sport consists of nothing but RWD cars, from Formula One and NASCAR, to Top Fuel drag racing. Every high-end performance car such as the ones produced by the big Italian companies are RWD. The BMW Ms, the Vipers, Corvette, Lotus. Even Mustangs and Camaros are RWD.

The SVX is a heavy car, and because of it's weight it will never "feel" nimble or like it handles well. The SVX is dialed in for high speed. On a fast track, it'll kick the crap out of the Focus, the SI, and the Cooper. Need I also mention that the SVX is a luxury car, and it's entirely unreasonable to expect it to compete with a sports car? Considering this, the SVX's luxury is a handicap that roughly equals the FWD handicap of these other cars.

Much like watching a Dodge Viper compete against a Lotus Esprit, you'll notice the Viper's weakness in it's handling is compensated for by it's horsepower. The Esprit's weakness in power output is compensated for by it's handling. On an average track, the Viper screams by the Esprit on every straightaway, but the Esprit slips by the Viper on every corner. What better illustration of apples and oranges? But notice both cars are RWD. I wonder why Ferrari doesn't make FWD cars. Oh yeah... They associate their name with performance.



Quote:
Originally posted by BordeauxComet
Uh, last time I checked the fastest SVX's at the strip were FWD so you may want to rethink your performance statement. Also you say they're slower off the line? I'd have to disagree there as well.
If a Top Fuel drag car only had two horsepower, I'm sure it really would matter if it was RWD or FWD. Since the SVX is fairly anemic for a performance car, it doesn't generally matter in a drag race situation. If the SVX had just a few more ponies, say 300, I'd reckon any FWD SVX would get it's arse whooped by an AWD version. As far as performance cars go, the SVX isn't that high up there. It just doesn't have enough ponies. It's a luxury car, what can I say? (Not all R/AWD cars are performance cars, but all performance cars are R/AWD.)

Take a brand-spankin-new STI with its great weight distribution, remove its rear end, and watch it get killed by everything. These FWD drag cars with all the weight shoveled over the front end only go fast because their weight distribution is so far forward. The problem with that is if you broaden the definition of performance, a car like that will suffer if it has to do anything but go in a straight line. I define "performance" pretty broadly. If you narrow the definition enough, a rocket-car with NWD [No Wheel Drive] is clearly faster than any "any-wheel-drive" car on the planet. ...but I don't think it's worth arguing the "performance" characteristics of a car like that.

I stand by my assertion that FWD cars are not performance cars. If you want to widen the definition of performance enough to include them, then they'll sit right at the bottom of the list.
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  #28  
Old 06-17-2004, 09:11 AM
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I'll add my $0.02 to this debate...

UberRoo, I used to hold your view that a fwd car could never be a true performance machine as the wrong wheels were being driven...then I started watching the Speed Channel and following the Grand Am Cup Series.

In this full-fledged, factory sponsored racing league, there are several teams that have entered fwd cars including the RSX Type-S and Neon SRT-4. Last season several teams were also running old Integras...and all of these fwd cars were very competitive in the series and even won a few races if my memory serves me correctly.

Also, with the introduction of the Neon SRT-4, several owners have run low 13 sec times on street tires and 12 sec 1/4's on slicks.

Thing is, even though a car transfers weight rearward on hard acceleration, suspension tuning (i.e. rock hard springs in the back) can reduce the weight transfer significantly and allow the front wheels to retain traction. Another plus with fwd cars is that they have the lowest drivetrain loss of all front-engined cars.

I've been converted. FWD cars can be true performance machines...

-Chike
Quote:
Originally posted by UberRoo
I stand by my assertion that FWD cars are not performance cars. If you want to widen the definition of performance enough to include them, then they'll sit right at the bottom of the list.
Grand Am Cup Series
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  #29  
Old 06-18-2004, 02:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chiketkd
I'll add my $0.02 to this debate...

UberRoo, I used to hold your view that a fwd car could never be a true performance machine as the wrong wheels were being driven...then I started watching the Speed Channel and following the Grand Am Cup Series.

In this full-fledged, factory sponsored racing league, there are several teams that have entered fwd cars including the RSX Type-S and Neon SRT-4. Last season several teams were also running old Integras...and all of these fwd cars were very competitive in the series and even won a few races if my memory serves me correctly.
Grand Am Cup Series
I won't debate that FWD cars are narrowing the gap, but look at the Grand Am Cup race results from the last race, May 22, 2004.

1st Cadillac CTS-V (RWD)
2nd Porsche 996 (RWD)
3rd Cobra SVT (RWD)
4th Porsche 996 (RWD)
5th Porsche 996 (RWD)
6th Nissan 350Z (RWD)
7th Porsche 996 (RWD)
8th Porsche 996 (RWD)
9th BMW M3 (RWD)
10th Porsche 996 (RWD)
11th Lexus IS300 (RWD)
12th BMW 330i (RWD)
13th RSX-S (FWD) --- Finally

The RSX weighs 2778lbs and is 200hp. That's 13.9lbs/horse.
The 330i weighs 3385lbs and is 225hp. That's 15lbs/horse.
The BMW has a comparatively lousy power-to-weight ratio, (and by a considerable margin,) yet it's still faster than the RSX. How do you explain that?

Before you try to answer that question, I've considered that these cars have probably been tuned. (I'm using the factory specified curb weight and horsepower.) I don't know the Grand Am Cup rules, but it's probably safe to say that even after both cars have been tuned, the RSX still has a better power to weight ratio.

Out of 47 cars listed, only 3 were FWD. Also, this is a class of racing that is far from the upper echelons of performance. This is not Ferrari territory. Something else to note is that many of these cars use ballast to get the balance right.


Quote:

Also, with the introduction of the Neon SRT-4, several owners have run low 13 sec times on street tires and 12 sec 1/4's on slicks.
Let me know when any FWD car gets into the five-second bracket. I know Top Fuel isn't the best comparison, but I can't easily humour drag times when comparing vehciles that have been tuned in ways I can only guess at. If we want to talk about the extreme (Top Fuel,) or in factory trim, then it's much more possible to discuss. In either case, RWD/AWD still comes out on top. (Go ahead and castrate an STI of it's rear wheels and see what happens.) My personal opinion is that drag race times are only useful as a baseline indication of a vehicle's ability to accelerate out of a corner. I'm simply not a fan of drag racing, but that's just my opinion based upon my flavour of racing and not relevant to this discussion.


Quote:

Thing is, even though a car transfers weight rearward on hard acceleration, suspension tuning (i.e. rock hard springs in the back) can reduce the weight transfer significantly and allow the front wheels to retain traction. Another plus with fwd cars is that they have the lowest drivetrain loss of all front-engined cars.
Tuning the suspension as you suggest will shorten the brief period of weight transfer caused by the body rocking and then reaching the end of it's articulation, but it will not change the overall weight distribution. You are correct about the drive train losses, at least generally speaking. Not all transaxles are efficient, (Subaru FWDs spring to mind,) and some RWD arrangements are reasonably loss-free. I think this bad reputation comes from large trucks and muscle cars turning huge rear ends. ...but generally speaking, you are correct, and there is a greater potential for efficiency in a transaxle.

I think that typical drive train losses are commonly exaggerated. I believe it was somebody on this forum that made the point that you can calculate the amount of heat which is generated by inefficient power transfer. It would not be possible to have huge losses without your transmission reaching extremely high temperatures. Some of the numbers I've heard thrown around would literally melt your transmission into a puddle of goo.


One thing I want to remain foremost in your mind is that we're still talking about the semantics of performance, i.e., where that threshold lies between the fast cars and all the other ones. Regarding this definition; to each his own.
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  #30  
Old 06-18-2004, 06:06 AM
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Geez, did this thread spiral off-topic...

...which serves to illustrate my original point: Some folks have a one-track mind.

Quarter-mile times and top speeds are valid issues only on the racetrack.


dcb

Last edited by dcarrb; 06-18-2004 at 06:18 AM.
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