Difference between organic and semi-metallic pads

DavieGravy · #1 03-12-2003, 08:31 PM

Does anyone know what the difference really is? Aside from what the manufacturers want you to believe?

Beav · #2 03-12-2003, 10:02 PM

Do you think there's some sort of conspiracy?

Semi-mets came out when the car manufacturers were doing everything possible to save weight and raise their CAFE numbers (Corporate Average Fuel Economy.) The less the car weighs, the easier it is to raise its MPG. As a result the braking system, especially the rotors, drums, shoes and calipers, were down-sized. Reduced swept area concentrates heat into a smaller area, so they came up with semi-mets to provide the same level of performance without sacrificing longevity.

Since the days that semi-mets were news other friction formulations have been introduced and as a result semi-mets aren't the big shaboom they once were. Most any friction you buy, other than bargain store parts, will perform similarly. I won't go out on a limb and say that x is better than y or z, nor will I ever say that you get what you pay for. Only an idiot believes that. If you buy a diamond ring for $5, I'll bet you've got a diamond ring that isn't worth $5.

Here's the way I see it:

Use whatever type friction that was originally installed. Aftermarket friction is typically longer lived than OE but you risk a bit of noise now and then. OE friction is good, but expensive and carries no warranty. Normally the more you pay for friction the better its quality, as long as you're not just buying a pretty box and some slick ads (pretty much true of anything.) For severe duty and/or usage on vehicles with known deficiencies we recommend ceramics. We've had very good results with them, but I don't think the car stops all that much better with them. Just lower dust, noise and better longevity.

Ron Mummert · #3 03-12-2003, 11:05 PM

For severe duty and/or usage on vehicles with known deficiencies we recommend ceramics. We've had very good results with them, but I don't think the car stops all that much better with them. Just lower dust, noise and better longevity. [/B][/QUOTE]

So, Beav.... to beat & stomp up & down upon that old rotten horse again.

When I finally wear out my front pads of unknown origin (all I know is they stop the car without squeaking, and never produce dust), and install my new iRotor slotted discs, what would you, my personal trainer-guru, all-seeing, all-knowing Greek God of all things automotive, recommend I use for pads? I do NOT use the car in competitive battle, although I've been tempted. I would like something that doesn't squeak, doesn't drool dust, doesn't warp the rotors after ONE panic stop, & lasts for AT LEAST 50,000 miles. I'm generally a LIGHT braker & detest tailgating. However, a day on the autocross circuit HAS entered my mind. Price is not the decision maker for me. I await your devine guidance. Check's in the mail.

Thanks, Ron.

DavieGravy · #4 03-13-2003, 11:48 AM

Beav, thanks very much for the response.

In that case, I'll probably go with organics if you say that most formulas offer similar performance, unless buying bargain pads. Not that I'm brake heavy or anything, just mainly concerned with noise and longetivity.

I must say though, I'm curious about these ceramics. I did a search here and on yahoo and didn't find anything for the SVX. At any rate, I'm not sure it would be wise to go with them without getting some better (slotted/drilled) rotors at the same time.

Not sure what kind of friction originally comes on the SVX, but, are organics a new formula and are they better than bargain pads?

lee · #5 03-13-2003, 01:04 PM

I've never tried them but there is a company that makes ceramics for the SVX, Akebono - do a search for that name, I know I posted a site that sells them just a few days ago, but again, never used them so....

oab_au · #6 03-13-2003, 04:26 PM

Pads range in there material, to suit the operating temperature that the braking system will run at.

Organic pads operate at lower temps, need no heat up time, do not wear disks, can overheat if overused. They have a high porosity that reduces squealing and enhances wet weather operation.

Metal/Ceramic pads operate at higher temps, need to be warmed up to working temp, wear the disk more, can stand more heat. They have a low porosity needs slotted disks to prevent squealing and help wet weather operation.

The harder the pad the higher the operating temp, the higher the disk wear, need to stay at a higher temp to maintain efficiency.

Chose the pad that suits your type of driving, don't kid yourself, If you live in a very cold area hard pads are not the best, they wont give instantaneous braking when cold or used in the wet.

Harvey.

Beav · #7 03-13-2003, 06:05 PM

I agree with you Harvey. However, over here (I don't know if there's a difference between what's available here or there) almost every company is scared to death of litigation. Most would rather make an exorbitant marketing claim than to make a product that stands alone in its performance.

That being said, I'd like to explain that gone are the days of full metallic brake shoes that would send you into your neighbor's garage door first thing in the morning (at least you won't find them at a local, run-of-the-mill parts store.) Unless you specify some full-on race pads, you'd be hard pressed to notice any difference in the performance of most over-the-counter pads available here.

Personally, my current fave for all-around use are the Wagner Thermo-Quiet pads. (see here: http://www.federal-mogul.com/cda/homepage/index) Don't shoot me if they're not available for the SVX. Tomorrow I'll try to look and see if they are available, providing my memory doesn't take the day off. When I bought pads for my car I just called my local supplier and told them to send me a set of pads. They know better than to send me crappy parts.

If you're looking for an endorsement beyond this just about anything listed as 'premium' at NAPA, CarQuest, et al should do.

O.K., enough of this for tonight. I just got a phone call from a slim goodie that's offered to take me out to dinner. You know I can't refuse an offer like that! Ciao

MoreIBNR · #8 03-13-2003, 10:02 PM

I have had good results with the Bendix IQ series. Plus, because of the warrenty, you end up with two sets for the price of one (which isn't too dis-similar to the price charged by other brands of similar quality if you shop around).

Oh, the IQ stands for Import Quiet. They come with shims and a titanium compound. I have found them pretty quiet - at least on the front. I have regular Bendix on the rear which I treated with an anti-squeal liquid. I believe there was a lot of graphite in the compound and you have to let it really soak into the pads. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't . It seems to have worked for me.

DavieGravy · #9 03-14-2003, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by oab_au
Pads range in there material, to suit the operating temperature that the braking system will run at.

Organic pads operate at lower temps, need no heat up time, do not wear disks, can overheat if overused. They have a high porosity that reduces squealing and enhances wet weather operation.

Metal/Ceramic pads operate at higher temps, need to be warmed up to working temp, wear the disk more, can stand more heat. They have a low porosity needs slotted disks to prevent squealing and help wet weather operation.

The harder the pad the higher the operating temp, the higher the disk wear, need to stay at a higher temp to maintain efficiency.

Chose the pad that suits your type of driving, don't kid yourself, If you live in a very cold area hard pads are not the best, they wont give instantaneous braking when cold or used in the wet.

Harvey.

Thanks for that in depth comparison Harvey.

It's funny you should bring up the fact that metallic/ceramics need to be warm to work properly. I have semi-metallics on my car all around and there have been many instances of me driving on the interstate, through the mountains, for long periods of time, only to get off at an exit ramp and find that I have very little stopping power. Sometimes this has involved snow and wetness, other times it hasn't. But I've seriously almost blazed through stop signs and rear ended people as a result of this. Even when my brakes have been in good condition.

Now I can't conclude that these instances are related to metallic brakes and cold weather as I'm sure many factors are involved with this. Most of these factors I probably don't know about, but it makes me think twice nonetheless.

Although I do largely agree with Beav's statement that no company in America is going to sell a pair of pads that, depending on the daily temperature and weather, might leave one with little stopping power. At least not to an extreme degree. Not that I know a lot about cars, just that everything here has to be idiot proof.

Andy · #10 03-15-2003, 02:33 PM

I have just ordered a new set of rotors and pads from a specialist brake company in the UK. As I am no expert, I asked for their opinion on the best for my needs. I do mostly stop-start driving, with a good deal of heavy braking, but rarely from more than 50mph.

He seemed to be familiar with the foibles of the SVX brakes and recommended slotted rotors, no drilling, and with kevlar pads.

Should be arriving in the next few days, so I will let you know what I think in a few weeks time.

Tim · #11 03-15-2003, 03:24 PM

I have Wagner Thermo Quiets for my front and just installed them today. Will let you know how they work

oab_au · #12 03-15-2003, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Beav

O.K., enough of this for tonight. I just got a phone call from a slim goodie that's offered to take me out to dinner. You know I can't refuse an offer like that! Ciao

How about a report on the dinner with the slim goodie?

No mater how we try to give it up.

We always fall for IT.

Harvey.

CDG · #13 03-15-2003, 04:45 PM

If your going to replace your Rotors, for example, Irotors, they have a recommended pad to go with it, buy that one.

I just recall a brand I used to use for my Mini, they were Mintex brand.
I remember the first time I asked for them.
"Can I have a box of Mintex Mini Pads Please?"

DavieGravy · #14 03-16-2003, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by oab_au

How about a report on the dinner with the slim goodie?
No mater how we try to give it up.

We always fall for IT.

Harvey.

Yeah, how was he?

Just kidding. Sorry, I couldn't resist that one.

newsvx · #15 03-16-2003, 06:40 AM

I have used the AXXIS Premium Metal Masters High Performance / semi-metalic p[ads from Australia for some time and find them very good in day to day driving (dry and wet) and autocross - even at Summit Point where our auto club runs at least once a year. Never had a problem with fading either. I use the normal stock rotors - no warping either. Perhaps I have been lucky, but I think the wearing (they wear on the rotor much more than the organic pads) characteristics of semi-metalic helps the warping issue. Also, to put it in perspective, I am hard on brakes since I autocross at least once a month 8 months out of the year.

BTW, be sure to flush and change your brake fluid once a year too. And replace it with a high temp fluid. That and keeping the brake system clear and fresh will make a huge difference if you are keeping the car a long time - which most of us do... Keeping moisture buildup in the braking system is key - you don't want any crud building up in the system!
Harry