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  #1  
Old 10-13-2005, 01:34 AM
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Matthewmongan Matthewmongan is offline
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some philosophy on this board

yeah so i had some ideas on my philosophy of feminism class.


The feminine appearance is something that cannot be generalized. To say one body is more feminine than an other is as foolish as saying a red apple looks more apple-ish than a green one. However, we do this every day. One can not turn on the tele without being bombarded with scanty clad women that we are made to believe are the definition of beautiful. We are made to believe that movements, posture and attitudes are more feminine than others. Currently there are two schools of thought on this subject, feminist and non-feminist.
We have all seen the Victoria’s secret ads in the paper, with so called supermodels strutting their stuff in barely their garments. It makes a man wonder “are they trying to sell undies to me or women?” it can be hard to tell, but ultimately the answer is both. They perpetuate the unconscious idea that if women buy these things men will want them and to a certain extent they are correct, as men will associate the lace panties with the women they see on their television. The feminists believe that this perpetuates a false ideal for women, and they are right. The non-feminists would most likely disregard the ad as good marketing and that it does not necessarily represent the female form as a whole. They would be right and saying so but for one glaring problem, for the exception of a few health food ads and a dove body moisturizer ad, women depicted in media are the same bodies in the panty ad.
Attitudes, and more disturbingly movement has been divided into female/male. A woman who does not express sensitivity, for example, is considered masculine. The inverse, a man who is sensitive and expresses emotions is considered feminine. The key word that must be looked at in both examples is expression. We have codified expression into gender; instead of a human expressing it self as a human it must be a man expressing himself as a woman or vice versa. This cancer infects all forms of expression; in music the flute was once and still may be a woman’s domain, where as a bass is granted dominion to men. Women do not solely feel pressure to be womanly, men also feel a pressure to be manly, to look and act manly.
Growing up and becoming a man there has always been a driving force for me to enhance myself physically. One could say that my disability has influenced this, and it is true. My disability allows me to see what masculinity is from a viewpoint that is neither masculine nor feminine. All through my life I have thought of martial arts as being the sole conduit for physical improvement, specifically Kung Fu. In the Kung Fu world there is no disabled, man or woman, there is only human. We see in movies drunken old men with canes, women and children fighting as proficient as the best male martial artist. But we still have societal pressures to look and behave a certain way. Bruce Lee, for one has become the perfect Kung Fu body, his form is regarded as flawless and it may be. However, it is impossible for someone to be Bruce Lee as it is impossible for someone to be Matt Mongan. I believed that I needed to look like Bruce Lee to be a good martial artist until I heard an interview of Bruce talking of his philosophy on human form. “A human being has two hands and two feet, until a being exist with three or four of each there will only be one form of expression, the Human form.”
There is no female action or male action, only Human action. It follows that there is no gender divided point of view, only a human point of view. Until we shed the idea that there is an ideal womanly or manly form we will always be plagued by discrimination and false identities. In this sense every human being is perfect because they are a human being. It is not only my experiences with kung fu philosophy that has lead me to this conclusion but also it springs from a feminist influence. My mother describes her self as a “silent feminist” and has been the foundation for my idea of what it means for a man to be a man and for a woman to be a woman. As my sister grew into adolescence she was uncomfortable with her body as many people at that age are. My mother consoled her saying that “you are a woman, yes? Then you are the best woman there is because you are the way you are meant to be”. A woman can only be woman; with that frame of mind every woman is the best example of a woman. Likewise, a human can only be a human.
Feminism strives for equality but the way it does this is by creating a division. Suddenly, the world is divided into feminist and non-feminist. By accepting the labels of manliness and womanliness we create a fracture between the two. If a person truly wants equality then they must work to erase the idea of one or other. What feminism should be is humanism. A person can identify them self as a non-feminist, but if it were to be referred to as humanism, no one could rightly be a non-humanist. With that mind set the opposition melts away because they are able to educate them selves on what it means to be a human, without the predigests they once had.


"All men are born free yet we walk everywhare in chains." is society placing these chains on us or do we do it all on our own? can we truly be free to be what we are without fear of alienation? will we ever be alowed to live the life we truly want to live?

more so why do we have to be classified, we look so hard at our diferences that we have forgoten to see the similarites. we are all but mear humans, "if you prick us do we not blead?" if we could only remember that in our mothers woom, before we are white, black, man, woman, muslem or jew, we are children of god, any god. with that in hear how can we treat another person an any manner other than family? how can we hate someone that is of the same flesh as our own?

Matthew Mongan
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  #2  
Old 10-13-2005, 02:02 AM
Bipa
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Wow.... deep thoughts! Wasn't expecting to read such a post as I'm sipping my second coffee of the morning. Was outside with the puppy for an hour, and still feeling dozey. Will have to wake up more to post a proper reply, but I'm pretty much with you on the ideas of humanism vs. divisiveness.

From a historical viewpoint, there have been many shifts in the general perceptions of what is considered acceptable manly behaviour, and womanly. Same goes for appearance. A while back, a plump or even fat woman was the ideal, since it meant that she came from a rich enough family that she always had more than enough to eat. The ideal skinny female form is relatively new. Just look at a few paintings from the Renaissance Masters, like Raphael or Botticelli or Titian and you'll see what I mean. These guys painted beautiful women, and worshipped the (plump) female form.

(Looking at empty coffee cup)
I need a refill and some muffins. Will come back later perhaps with more about this. Neat topic! Hope more people chime in.

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  #3  
Old 10-13-2005, 02:32 AM
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Matthewmongan Matthewmongan is offline
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yes, the ideal female form has changed. however, there shouldn't be an ideal form at all. why is a skinny woman more socialy acceptible than a plump, or zaftig if you will. it is the idea that we have to conform with society's ideals, that we cant be what we are. now this will bake your noodle, do we think the skinny woman is hot because we truthfully think she is, or is it society that says "this is what is beautiful" that forms the bases for our opinion for what is hot? do we control the societal norm or does society control us? are we just bodies pluged into the matrix?

the lord of the flys trys to answer this. it justfies societal conditioning under the grounds that we will become animals without something telling us how to behave. rusoe, however believed that society is the machine that enslaves us, that naturaly we would live in paridise yet we hide our true self to conform with what society wants us to be. the quote "men are born free but walk in chains" is rusoe.

this is not just a feminist issue. everywhare we look we will find this evasive discrimination. we alll have to have the new motorola cell phone we see on 'the O.C." we work our entire lives saving to buy expensive cars, we buy shoes that hurt our feet, why? because we think they look good. we buy 1000$ suits to show off our recently liposucked arses.

is man truly "concieved in sin and born into coruption" or do we become corupt? in the christen theology, we are born with "origional sin". we need to be baptised to release us from it. so if we are born corrupt how can we truly be anything other. in the calvin/luther philosophy "good words will not bring salvation". intresting implementation on politics. should we blame the corupt politician for being corupt, when we infact are corupt ourselfs. or should we forgive his coruption (perhaps the biblical 7 times 70). maybe, we think of politics as corupt because we see the same coruption in ourselfs.
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Old 10-13-2005, 06:28 AM
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thundering02 thundering02 is offline
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Do you have a life? Anyways good read here.
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  #5  
Old 10-13-2005, 02:10 PM
Bobb Bobb is offline
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Muffin

Oh Bipa, Was your post an attempt to justify the muffin. Just looking for a hidden message. Take care and enjoy that muffin, BOBB
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Old 10-13-2005, 03:51 PM
Bipa
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Originally Posted by Bobb
Oh Bipa, Was your post an attempt to justify the muffin. Just looking for a hidden message. Take care and enjoy that muffin, BOBB
Me? Naw... I never need to justify a choc. chip muffin! Although Hubby has mentioned I'm getting a little plump I should'ha been born in the 15th C.... then I could eat all the muffins I want... oops... don't think choc. chip muffins were invented back then Guess I'm better off living now, enjoying the occasional muffin and just ignoring the whole "ideal female form" thingie, eh (One of these days I just might post a photo or two of me that might surprise a few folks - just got back a photo shoot that turned out quite ... errrr ... interesting )

Actually, I've been toying all day with the idea of posting something revolving around my favourite quote from Jean-Jacques Rousseau. Matthew mentioned him first, so I'm not being too presumptuous by quoting him back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthewmongan
the quote "men are born free but walk in chains" is rusoe [sic]
Problem is that I simply haven't been able to manage a big enough block of time to settle my thoughts and churn out something coherent.

I came across the following quote in my first year Poly-Sci class at UofT and it has stuck in my head ever since. Has become a mantra of sorts ever since I moved to Europe.

"to be sane in a world of madmen is in itself a kind of madness"

I was planning to tie it in with another of Rousseau's quotes
"Nature never deceives us; it is we who deceive ourselves"

Tomorrow I have tons to do and then we go away for the weekend. Then I'm hoping on Monday to finally get down to Switzerland and pick up the totally fixed and good-as-new SVX! Yeah!

So I'll leave you all to ponder my quotes, and I'll see what I find when I get back and answer any mail waiting for me.

What the heck... call me crazy
(munch)
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  #7  
Old 10-13-2005, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bipa
...snip...

So I'll leave you all to ponder my quotes, and I'll see what I find when I get back and answer any mail waiting for me.

...snip.
In the last 30 years or so the only sporting events I've watched have been car related (autoX, F-1, Sebring/Daytona sports car events), and the on-field activities of my own children, still a sporting analogy seems closest to my personal philosophy...

You win some, you lose some, and some get rained out.
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Old 10-13-2005, 10:00 PM
Ron Mummert Ron Mummert is offline
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Wink

The feminine appearance is something that cannot be generalized. To say one body is more feminine than an other is as foolish as saying a red apple looks more apple-ish than a green one.


Yes, but a red & green apple look more apple-ish than a zucchini.


Attitudes, and more disturbingly movement has been divided into female/male. We have codified expression into gender; instead of a human expressing it self as a human it must be a man expressing himself as a woman or vice versa. This cancer infects all forms of expression.


With all due respect, Matthew, my friend; you seem to disdain the, argueable perhaps, inherent differences between the genders. I would maintain today's societal bent to make us a "unisex" culture has been a detriment, & led to a confusion of roles that had been with all humans for eons.


“A human being has two hands and two feet, until a being exist with three or four of each there will only be one form of expression, the Human form.” There is no female action or male action, only Human action.


Sorry, Mr. Lee, but my hands & stature will deny me the chance to slam-dunk a basketball, as well as 99.9% of female humans. However, I wonder how fast Shaq can knit a doily?


It follows that there is no gender divided point of view, only a human point of view. Until we shed the idea that there is an ideal womanly or manly form we will always be plagued by discrimination and false identities.


Nah. Face it, life is discriminatory. We (all humans) can strive to overcome discrimination, but there are obvious limits.


As my sister grew into adolescence she was uncomfortable with her body as many people at that age are. My mother consoled her saying that “you are a woman, yes? Then you are the best woman there is because you are the way you are meant to be”. A woman can only be woman; with that frame of mind every woman is the best example of a woman. Likewise, a human can only be a human.

Huh?

Feminism strives for equality but the way it does this is by creating a division. Suddenly, the world is divided into feminist and non-feminist. By accepting the labels of manliness and womanliness we create a fracture between the two.

I prefer to celebrate the differences. Maybe we haven't gotten it exactly right yet, but I'll talk to my bartender tonight.


Ron. (Prefers Catherine Zeta-Jones to Rosie O'Donnell - shame on me).
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Old 10-13-2005, 10:06 PM
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Noir Noir is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Mummert
Ron. (Prefers Catherine Zeta-Jones to Rosie O'Donnell - shame on me).
and on that note, may i direct you to the ever so popular thread:

http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/showthread.php?t=20763

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Old 10-13-2005, 10:30 PM
Ron Mummert Ron Mummert is offline
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[QUOTE=Matthewmongan]yes, the ideal female form has changed. however, there shouldn't be an ideal form at all. why is a skinny woman more socialy acceptible than a plump, or zaftig if you will. it is the idea that we have to conform with society's ideals, that we cant be what we are. now this will bake your noodle, do we think the skinny woman is hot because we truthfully think she is, or is it society that says "this is what is beautiful" that forms the bases for our opinion for what is hot? do we control the societal norm or does society control us? are we just bodies pluged into the matrix?

Sorry, Matthew, I can't resist. We're all "imprinted" somewhere along the maturing process, just as baby penguins become imprinted with the vision
of mama penguin's beak regurgitating putrid herring, 'cause "that's where the food is". Sure...the image of beauty, both male & female has flip-flopped throughout the centuries. Perhaps the hairiest troglodite was hot stuff to his female companions, since a heavy fur coat insured continuity of the genes during those pesky periods of global cooling. "Opinion" has little to do with survival, and more importantly, one of Reubens' models would look silly in a thong.

Ron (out of control).
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Old 10-13-2005, 10:45 PM
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i like boobs!

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Old 10-13-2005, 10:56 PM
Ron Mummert Ron Mummert is offline
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Talking

(One of these days I just might post a photo or two of me that might surprise a few folks - just got back a photo shoot that turned out quite ... errrr ... interesting )


I look forward to this reveal-ation as a future topic of profound philosophical intercourse. Or, as the hoary philosopher Testiclees once opined, "Have a ball".

Ron ( insanely out of control)
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Old 10-13-2005, 11:07 PM
Ron Mummert Ron Mummert is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Landshark
i like boobs!


Oh fine, Alan.....You've now managed to divert what was a refined exchange of intellectual viewpoints into a juvenile display of depravity.

I can dig it.

Ron (no control whatsoever).
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Old 10-13-2005, 11:11 PM
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Aredubjay Aredubjay is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noir
and on that note, may i direct you to the ever so popular thread:

http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/showthread.php?t=20763


'Nuff said.


Well, almost. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Thus, male and female.
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Old 10-13-2005, 11:23 PM
Ron Mummert Ron Mummert is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aredubjay
'Nuff said.


Well, almost. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Thus, male and female.


I love it when you talk dirty, Randy.

Ron (also randy)
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