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  #31  
Old 11-13-2007, 04:08 PM
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Very interesting but how did you do the temperature calculations exactly. Also how did you calculate the temperature drop if I use a meth injection kit. I know that those were just rough numbers, but I am very curious now.
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  #32  
Old 11-15-2007, 09:05 AM
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Bought a Coolingmist Varicool Meth injection kit today. Now when I go to the dyno I will do a couple pulls on 93, a couple of pulls on 103, a few pulls with 93 and meth, and possibly a couple other variations.

I still want to know how svxistentialist calculated those temps though.....
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  #33  
Old 11-15-2007, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svxistentialist View Post
The proof of the pudding was when the installation was put into my Version L, and everything tightened down, no loose pulley. The timing is not being pulled, full power all round.
Forgive me for asking Joe, but is your version L using the same ECU that Graham used in his car?
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  #34  
Old 11-17-2007, 10:14 PM
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Bump/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\


I really want to know the calculations used to generate those temperatures....
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  #35  
Old 11-18-2007, 04:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b3lha View Post
Forgive me for asking Joe, but is your version L using the same ECU that Graham used in his car?
Hi Phil

No trouble asking, but I don't actually know. Graham fitted the gear before I traveled over.

If I was to guess I imagine it is using its own JDM ecu. I'll chat to Graham and check it out.

Joe
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  #36  
Old 11-18-2007, 04:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sicksubie View Post
Bump/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\


I really want to know the calculations used to generate those temperatures....
Sorry man, I forgot about your question. I have had a busy week at work.

I'm using a spreadsheet from Graham that does all the calculations once you change the parameters.

The parameters that will affect the output [hp and cyl temps] would be displacement, percentage efficiency of the charge cooling system and the efficiency of the pressurising technology, i.e. how much unwanted heat your blower or turbo produces [or how efficient it is, if you want to see it that way]. Also the compression ratio is a variable.

It is populated with manufacturers' figures for the various devices, so you have to select which manufacturer and which model you are using.

It also outputs the required air feed in cfm to generate the horsepower you are after. Should you dial up too big a number in hp for the blower you are planning to use, it will alert you that the cfm required is beyond the capacity of the pump to deliver. Possibly also the required boost level with blowers can be greater than the stated pump can deliver, this is flagged. Unlike centrifugal turbos, positive displacement pumps will suffer from blow-back beyond certain pressures.

And before you ask, no, I'm sorry, I can't send you a copy. Graham is planning to sell it in relation to his tuning business. If there was interest I suppose he could prepare a few copies for sale.

Cheers man

Joe
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  #37  
Old 11-18-2007, 07:49 AM
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OK thanks..... What about telling me about the GT4094R turbo? Can you plug that into the spread sheet?
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  #38  
Old 11-18-2007, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sicksubie View Post
OK thanks..... What about telling me about the GT4094R turbo? Can you plug that into the spread sheet?
Not at present. It is only populated with blower [supercharger] data at the moment. It can give output info for the likes of Lysholm, Autorotor, Sprintex, Eaton etc.

I'm sure it could be configured to give similar information about turbos, but you will appreciate we have been working with PD superchargers for a number of years, and we have never bothered with turbos.

There would be two different factors to account for using centrifugal pumps as opposed to the positive displacement types we have programmed in. One is, with the belt-driven centrifugal types, such as OT's, there would not be a theoretical leak-back limit, the pressures [boost] reached would not have a ceiling other than that governed by rev limits of the turbo and size.

The other difference is in charge temperature. In addition to increased temperatures of the charge caused by pumping pressure and inefficiency, the turbocharger would also add extraneous heat leaked over from the exhaust driven drive mechanism. This would be a variable that would be hard to compute accurately and might vary from one installation to the next.

Naturally, belt-driven superchargers like the Rotrex will not add this additional heat load, their charge temperatures will be dictated by pumping efficiency, which in their case is pretty damn good.

That also reminds me that any figures I have quoted you would be based on the theoretical best possible expectation if it included liquid injection or intercoolers. In practice, poor installation of the intercoolers can reduce the HP available, often by a very considerable amount.

Joe
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  #39  
Old 11-21-2007, 02:25 AM
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I took a Knock sensor from the engine I am replacing the head gasket on and tested it. You can't see the signal with a multi meter so I used a scope and up it came. It was as clear as day and spiking between 0 & 4v depending on vibration I suspect that if you banged it hard enough you would get 5v's.
After having watched the scope I would say your engines are pulling timing for sure. It reacts to vibration of any sort (even a tap with small screw driver) on this basis there is a better then even chance that the timing the SC engines is totally off due to it being pulled.
It would be possiable to run a test to see what is happening and how much they are effected by the SC and the "bigger bang" due to more fuel & power. What you need to do is bolt a knock sensor to any part on the engine as close to the centre as possiable then read it with the engine running, not sure but you might get a voltage on a multi metter. Do this with a standard SVX & a SC I will bet nickle to a dim that there is a major difference in the readings.
Last point before I drive every one nuts is that the signal is to dirty to be able to read it for 1 particular cyclinder.
Good luck.
Tony
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  #40  
Old 11-21-2007, 03:04 AM
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Okay you guys must be in bed so I decided to give what I suggested. Bad news is the multi meter won't work. Good news is the scope worked like a charm. I used a normal knock sensor put a bolt through it one wire from the scope onto the bolt the other to the out plug that ges to ECU. Started the engine on the old girl (lot of knocks in that baby) held the bolt onto the intake manifold and this is what I got in photo 3. First photo Knock sensor with bolt, second Knock sensor not touching engine & third held on intake. Give it a try its simple, I think the curve reflects the cyclinder firiing which means I was wrong when I said it was a dirty signal.
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Attached Images
File Type: jpg Knock Sensor trial 1.jpg (275.9 KB, 136 views)
File Type: jpg Knock Sensor trial 2.jpg (61.8 KB, 116 views)
File Type: jpg Knock Sensor trial 3.jpg (67.3 KB, 113 views)
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  #41  
Old 11-21-2007, 05:02 AM
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Superb information Tony. Nice test.

Trevor mentioned an interesting point; he seems to be of the opinion that the knock sensors, which are audio devices, send a signal. If I understand him right then possibly this signal is either measured in a select frequency range that mirrors the peak from in-cylinder detonation, or is closely filtered to only read or deliver pulses of a certain bandwidth or volume.

So what is relevant is how discriminatory they may be in relation to other noises such as the rotors meshing, or in our case a pulley not tight.

Can we derive any information on this?

Joe
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  #42  
Old 11-21-2007, 05:47 AM
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it would be interesting to place washers of different damping factors (softness) between the sensor and the block to see how you can "tune" the output to the ECU.
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  #43  
Old 11-21-2007, 05:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SVXelerator View Post
it would be interesting to place washers of different damping factors (softness) between the sensor and the block to see how you can "tune" the output to the ECU.
Yes, that's interesting and would be a good test.

If the output from the sensor is being delivered in pure voltage terms, is it reasonable to presume that the ECU will only translate and react based on what voltage it sees?

For instance, maybe the ECU is programmed to disregard anything in the 1 to 2 volt range.

Would it be reasonable to surmise that if the ECU "sees" 4v out of phase with the standard ignition sequence, it deduces "detonation!" and pulls [retards, Trevor ] the ignition?

Maybe there are different ignition retardation responses for increasing voltages? Does anybody know the score on this process?

Joe
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  #44  
Old 11-21-2007, 06:13 AM
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Joe in answer to one of your questions the unit is affected by background noise. I think it raises the peak in other words if background noise is 1V then the peak will be increased by 1 V causing the problem. The real test would be to plug into the right knock sensor just behind the alternator on the two types of engines and see if they are getting different peaks. If some one had a dead knock sensor and a dead harness they could make a short lead to plug inline with the ECU and you could run the tests to your hearts content.
You guy most likly know but the knock sensor generates its own power and appears to go from negitive voltage to positive, -4v to +4v range so you just put one lead of the scope on the engine and the other on the output wire of the knock sensor and you have power.
If you use washers remember that the sensor needs to be grounded to the engine (Neg) to operate so you could put fiber washers under it as long as the bolt makes contact at the top.
Tony
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1992 - SVX 255 K Wife (Want to stay Married so not allowed to fit SC)
1992 - SVX Pearl with black roof race car roll cauge etc ready to race. Ex Tasman Targa car.
1995 - SVX Green low k mint condiation.
1995 - SVX Rally car, ex Matts car. Now to be used on track.
1992 - SVX red & Black being converted to Mid Engine.
1995 - SVX Red 143,000 bit rough.
Owned 5 others Subaru back to a 1974 1400 GSR.
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  #45  
Old 11-21-2007, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SVXelerator View Post
it would be interesting to place washers of different damping factors (softness) between the sensor and the block to see how you can "tune" the output to the ECU.
OT tried that and had zero results
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