Vibration in drivetrain after 4.11 swap

[sperry]

Originally Posted by TomsSVX

pop the drain plug to count ring teeth... thats all.

Tom

Awesome! I didn't think you'd be able to see anything.

What's the ring count for a 4.44 vs. a 4.11 on the front diff? Is it the same as the rear diffs (37 ring/9 pinion for a 4.11, 40 ring/9 pinion for a 4.44)?

[TomsSVX]

I believe so but check with svxfiles for that one

Tom

[sperry]

Originally Posted by TomsSVX

I believe so but check with svxfiles for that one

Tom

You mean simply having the name "Tom" doesn't magically impregnate all SVX related data into your brain?

[svxfiles]

Here are the trans #s from our four 4.44 equipped 4EAT SVXi;
Nicks
TZ102Z2ABA I know his was from a 1996 Legacy Outback.
My Claret
TZ102Z2CBA I know it was a 1997 but would have to check my posts from two years ago to find out.
My once perfect Pearlie
TZ102Z2DBA I believe it was a 1997 as well.
My newest Pearlie
TZ102Z2CCA As I remember a 1997 too.

I also checked the 4.44 laying on my garage floor awaiting installation in a Pearlie this weekend. The reciept says it came from a 1997 Legacy Outback VIN;4S3BGC855V7605248

[sperry]

Originally Posted by svxfiles

Here are the trans #s from our four 4.44 equipped 4EAT SVXi;
Nicks
TZ102Z2ABA I know his was from a 1996 Legacy Outback.
My Claret
TZ102Z2CBA I know it was a 1997 but would have to check my posts from two years ago to find out.
My once perfect Pearlie
TZ102Z2DBA I believe it was a 1997 as well.
My newest Pearlie
TZ102Z2CCA As I remember a 1997 too.

I also checked the 4.44 laying on my garage floor awaiting installation in a Pearlie this weekend. The reciept says it came from a 1997 Legacy Outback VIN;4S3BGC855V7605248

That's great info. I'm starting to think that the number on the case doesn't always signify the ratio of the front diff. There very well could be some CBA's w/ 4.11's and some CBA's with 4.44's... you really have to have good info about the car it came out of to know!

We'll be pulling the drain plug on my tranny soon (hopefully tomorrow) and counting ring gears. We'll know for sure what's in my car. If it is indeed a 4.44, I'm really at a loss to explain the binding we had when we had the initial 4.44 rear-end on the car.

As much as I'm going to look like a dumb-ass going back to the junk yard and asking "he, remember that 4.44 rear-end I gave back to you, ya still got it?" I'm really hoping this is my issue. I really wanted a 4.44 all along, and I was bummed when we thought it turned out that we had a 4.11. Plus, if it turns out to be a 4.11, I'm at a loss as to what's causing all the binding in that thing.

[svxfiles]

Originally Posted by sperry

, I'm really at a loss to explain the binding we had when we had the initial 4.44 rear-end on the car.

I have had properly matched trans/rear ends bind when first installed.
First check the TPS as it can cause binding, and check for codes.
If they are OK try driving slowley in figure 8s to see if the plates were just stuck from sitting.
It could be a F/R clutch basket, or a solenoid C
(also called a single wire solenoid)stuck that may or may not throw a code.
It is possible for an incorrect front diff to be installed on a trans, but not too many people go to the trouble of splitting the case.
Keep at it, good luck.
You will love your 4.44s!!!
More Later
Tom.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by svxfiles

I have had properly matched trans/rear ends bind when first installed.
First check the TPS as it can cause binding, and check for codes.
If they are OK try driving slowley in figure 8s to see if the plates were just stuck from sitting.
It could be a F/R clutch basket, or a solenoid C
(also called a single wire solenoid)stuck that may or may not throw a code.
It is possible for an incorrect front diff to be installed on a trans, but not too many people go to the trouble of splitting the case.
Keep at it, good luck.
You will love your 4.44s!!!
More Later
Tom.

TPS should be good. I checked it not so long ago when I replaced my step-down resistor.

Plates may have been stuck, but we noticed the original binding just backing the car straight back out from under the lift. I was so noticeable idling in a straight line that we immediately went "oh crap, it's got to be a 4.11!" Plus we checked wheel speeds with the car in the air, and the fronts were turning significantly faster than the rears at idle. Maybe that's brake drag and the result of a 90/10 split, but really it seems to me that on the lift w/o the resistance from the ground, the brake drag should actually help to sync the AWD (you know, the way some cars use the ABS to help with traction control).

Now if my Sol. C were dead, then the installation of the FWD fuse that activates it wouldn't have an effect, yet I'm able to put the car into FWD mode and remove all the binding, so I'm pretty confident that the solenoid and related valves are all working properly. If they weren't I'd either have no binding at all, or the FWD fuse would fail to clear it up. Plus, I'd likely have a code of some sort (which I don't think I've got, but I'm not 100% sure). And, I've had a bad Sol.C before, and the binding felt different, it was only in turns, and the tighter the turn, the worse it got. The binding was (and is) all the time, even in a straight line.

It could be the clutch basket. In fact that's what we were assuming because we were so sure everything was 4.11. We figured the tranny I got was bad, and we'd be rebuilding the bastard. But the tranny came off a car a long while ago (car was a '96 and ended up in the yard in '00, so the tranny only has 4 years of miles on it... it's been sitting longer than it's been used!) I can't imagine the clutch basket would be worn out w/ so few miles (I figure 40k to 60k miles is a good guess). Plus the tranny was in *excellent* condition. We drained the dregs of the fluid from it, and installed a new filter, gaskets, etc. Everything looked great. So, I think it's not all that likely that there's something wrong w/ the tranny itself, which is why I put up this post.

You guys have convinced me that there's a good chance this is really a 4.44 gearbox. Which would explain all the symptoms we're seeing now. I'm just at a loss for what was going on when we had a 4.44 rear-end on the car.

Anyway, I'm really just rambling at this point. I'll know for sure what's going on (or at least know for sure that I don't know what's going on) as soon as we count the ratio on the front diff.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by sperry

The binding was (and is) all the time, even in a straight line.

I would say that you know exactly what you are about and have logically worked out what is wrong, but have very much hoped that you are not correct, on the basis of what is involved to fix things. What a bugger!

I commiserate, Trevor.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Trevor

I would say that you know exactly what you are about and have logically worked out what is wrong, but have very much hoped that you are not correct, on the basis of what is involved to fix things. What a bugger!

I commiserate, Trevor.

Actually, I'm really hoping this tranny is a 4.44, and my only issue is that I've got the wrong rear-end on the car. I've swapped rear-ends so many times, my friend and I can drop the exhaust, pull the original, crack the case, take out the LSD carrier, open the donor, grind the bumps, swap the rings, install the LSD, pattern the gears, reassemble and reinstall everything in about 30 to 40 minutes... getting the right 4.44 rear-end in the car will be a breeze.

What I'm really scared of is having matching ratios, and no idea where the vibration is coming from!

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by sperry

Actually, I'm really hoping this tranny is a 4.44, and my only issue is that I've got the wrong rear-end on the car. I've swapped rear-ends so many times, my friend and I can drop the exhaust, pull the original, crack the case, take out the LSD carrier, open the donor, grind the bumps, swap the rings, install the LSD, pattern the gears, reassemble and reinstall everything in about 30 to 40 minutes... getting the right 4.44 rear-end in the car will be a breeze.

What I'm really scared of is having matching ratios, and no idea where the vibration is coming from!

If I had to do all that it would be a bugger! So of now I simply wish you luck with the feeling that you are correct in your diagnosis. Fingers crossed and may you breeze on in smooth air.

[sperry]

Okay, little update:

My friend finally had some spare time at the shop to put the car on the lift, drain the front diff and count some teeth. 40 teeth on the front diff ring gear! IMO, that's a 4.44. I can't believe we f-ed it up when we already had a 4.44 in the car that was in great condition.

I went back to the yard that sold me the tranny and diff(s). They had sold the 4.44 I had returned earlier, but I found a '98 2.5L Legacy Outback on the lot that was in a roll-over and still has its rear-end (no motor or tranny though anymore). They're pulling the diff for me tomorrow morning, and I'll pick it up at lunch. Hopefully we'll get it in the car tomorrow afternoon, and I'll finally be done with this damn 4.44 swap!

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by sperry

Okay, little update:

My friend finally had some spare time at the shop to put the car on the lift, drain the front diff and count some teeth. 40 teeth on the front diff ring gear! IMO, that's a 4.44. I can't believe we f-ed it up when we already had a 4.44 in the car that was in great condition.

I went back to the yard that sold me the tranny and diff(s). They had sold the 4.44 I had returned earlier, but I found a '98 2.5L Legacy Outback on the lot that was in a roll-over and still has its rear-end (no motor or tranny though anymore). They're pulling the diff for me tomorrow morning, and I'll pick it up at lunch. Hopefully we'll get it in the car tomorrow afternoon, and I'll finally be done with this damn 4.44 swap!

Again I say, "what a bugger", but you now know that your diagnosis was spot on from the start. Should I say, "told you so"? Whatever, only kick yourself once.

Cheers, Trevor. *<)

[NeedForSpeed]

Your wish has been granted

Originally Posted by sperry

I wish I had a 4.44, as that was what I paid for at the yard... but it'll cost me another $300+ in shop time to swap it out, plus I don't think I can find a quality used 4.44 locally, so the 4.11's will be good enough if I can get this damn vibration cleared up.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by NeedForSpeed

Your wish has been granted

Just what I was thinking!

*wishes to find a wad of hundreds in his pants pocket*

[sperry]

So get this... the rear-end from that '98 Legacy ended up being *another* 4.11! Argh! So either there are some '98's w/ 4.11's (was there a mid-year change over?) or the donor car was a 5MT and just happened to have the shift linkage from a 4EAT tossed in the driver's seat.

Anyway, I was able to source a '97 2.5L Legacy 4EAT rear-end from another junk yard on Thursday, and by Friday afternoon my friend at the shop had that bastard installed!

The car runs like a champ now in a straight line, but I'm afraid we may have indeed damaged the center diff with the 4.11 that was on the car briefly... that, or the center diff was bad to begin with in the tranny... something we'll never know. Either way, the car has the exact same binding issues that it had on the OEM tranny back when I purchased it: binding during turns, the tighter the turn the worse the binding. It's not anywhere near as bad as the original tranny was, so I figure I can drive it for a bit before absolutely having to repair it, but I'd much rather take care of this soon than later.

On the original tranny, I ended up getting the solenoids and the rear clutch pack thing replaced. I'm willing to bet all this new tranny needs is a new transfer clutch, or whatever it's really called, I think it's #33123 in this drawing:



It may also need a new housing, as that's the other half of the friction in the clutch, is it not? I'm sure there's someone on the board that's done this repair... any tips and/or part numbers I need to do this on a '97 Legacy 4.44?