Spreading Democracy - Mission Being Accomplished!

[Electrophil]

The WMD and chemical weapon lab routine did and always will fit in the category of "You can not prove something does not exist", but you can convince someone that it does.

The UN inspection team, lead by a US citizen, stayed in Iraq for over a decade. Yeah,,, they were thrown out a few times, but never over a month or so. Heck, they were there until the end. We actually called them and told them to leave Iraq, that we were about to attack.

They never found anything. But you can't expect them at the same time to "guarantee" there is nothing there. You can't prove something does not exist.

If we say "Cheny maintains a chemical weapons lab in Texas", and the rumour spreads, eventually they will find evidence somewhere of what may have been Cheny's lab. I'm sure after investigation it won't be. But considering Cheny ran Haliburton, the correlation could easily be made.

I personally would like to see proof that Cheny "doesn't" maintain a chemical weapons lab. I think he does. Not necessarily in Texas, but somewhere. He has senior management level experience with chemicals, and had access to the best of technologies in the field. I also believe he should be removed from office immediately for practicing such outrageous and dangerous behaviour.

A good question to ask is what's the shelf life of various chemical and biological weapons? I remember that was what the chemists were screaming during the time, saying that some don't last 3 months, much less a decade. I remember that was where all the talk of "mobile labs" came from. The UN inspectors had already ruled out everywhere besides his main palace. And would you put a biological plant in your house?

It's all going to come out. They know it, and it's why they are being so defensive in the last few days.

Nixon called Watergate an "insignificant 3rd rate burglary attempt". And it was. But history has him recorded as lying about the cover up and almost impeached. (Actually.... he was, but resigned in time... Ford pardoned him from the indictment.)

Clinton called Whitewater a "failed land deal that means nothing". And it was. But history has him recorded as lying about getting oral sex, from the same prosecutor. He was almost impeached.

Bush didn't start this out with something insignificant. His is war against a soverign nation which so far, has resulted in a worse, more lethal climate than it was under their old ally. He has increased terrorism throughout the world as a result. I sincerely don't believe there's going to be an "almost" involved when this breaks.

And you can tell they are concerned. The whole administration is insanely defensive right now over the allegations. They have history books. They know what is coming. And good ole Ford ain't around to pardon them.

[bwb3]

Doug,
Don't forget the 500 tons of Uranium the Saddam had stockpiled, 1.8 tons of which was low-enriched (New York Times, 24 May 2004).

Another report that the press never followed up on was the 4th Infantry Division discovering an ammo dump near the town of Baiji with 55 gallon drums of chemicals which, when mixed together, form nerve gas. They were stored next to surface-to-surface missiles which had been configured to carry a liquid payload.

...and the UK Gardian is very anti-U.S.A.
Gene

[Electrophil]

And the New York times is Fox news in print.

[mohrds]

Originally Posted by Electrophil

Clinton called Whitewater a "failed land deal that means nothing". And it was. But history has him recorded as lying about getting oral sex, from the same prosecutor. He was almost impeached.

He was impeached. The house impeached him on two counts, perjury and obstruction of justice. The Senate blocked the actual removal from office through a stalemate vote.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/events/cl...ews/238784.stm

Doug

[mohrds]

Originally Posted by Electrophil

And the New York times is Fox news in print.

That's a good one!!! The NYT sways liberal most of the time.

[Electrophil]

Originally Posted by mohrds

That's a good one!!! The NYT sways liberal most of the time.

Ha!! No way!! They are equal opportunity spinmasters. Every rumour control item in America is generated from the New York times... Both Parties! They are like the National Enquirer of main print papers.

This is edited in as an afterthought:
You just admitted that Fox is a mouthpiece for the Republican party. You are busted!!!!

[Electrophil]

Originally Posted by mohrds

He was impeached. The house impeached him on two counts, perjury and obstruction of justice. The Senate blocked the actual removal from office through a stalemate vote.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/events/cl...ews/238784.stm

Doug

I stand corrected.

[Electrophil]

I also wasn't aware of that "Abuse of Power" charge.

That one gives me more hope.

[mohrds]

Originally Posted by Electrophil

You just admitted that Fox is a mouthpiece for the Republican party. You are busted!!!!

I only admitted that Fox sways conservative, but not Republican...

How about we just ban political parties all together? Then we are voting for one person and their ideas instead of who the party thinks has the best chance of defeating the other party...

The really good candidates are not nominated because the are to centered and not enough of the fringe.

Imagine a country with moderates running things. Instead of the wild pendulum every 4 years, we get a gentle swaying.

Originally Posted by Electrophil
Ha!! No way!! They are equal opportunity spinmasters. Every rumour control item in America is generated from the New York times... Both Parties! They are like the National Enquirer of main print papers.

This is edited in as an afterthought:
You just admitted that Fox is a mouthpiece for the Republican party. You are busted!!!!

I apologize ahead of time, but I just can't pass up this opportunity to inject a little humour into this thread.

Serious readers please ignore and skip to next post

NY Times Mobile Headline Lab Found in Iraqi Desert
By David Burge
CNSNews.com Embedded Satire Correspondent
April 15, 2003

Ar Rutbah, Iraq (CNSNews.com) - Troops from the U.S. Army's 113th Mobile Pundit Reconnaissance Squadron Tuesday uncovered what appears to have been a secret New York Times headline facility in western Iraq.

The cache, called "disturbing" by military commanders, was discovered in a vacant lot adjacent to a medical clinic during a routine patrol in Ar Rutbah, about 350 kilometers west of Baghdad, according to Army Lt. Col. Tim Wright, a Zeitgeist Specialist with the 113th.

"It was in a poorly camouflaged bunker," said Wright. "In addition to 30 large barrels of contingency headlines, we also found three sneer quote generators, artificial conclusion synthesizers, hysteria protection masks, and trace elements of Maureen Dowd's liver spot cream."

Wright also said preliminary testing indicated that New York Times editor R.W. Apple and columnist Paul Krugman may have recently been in the area. "Our sanctimony and condescension detectors were definitely spiking," Wright said.

While many of the initial findings must be verified by coalition Central Command in Doha, Qatar, military commanders Tuesday released a portion of the decrypted contents from several of the contingency headline containers, offering a glimpse into the publication's post-war strategy:

Chaos Reigns as Looters Run Rampant in Iraq
Brutality Criticized as US Troops Crack Down on Iraqi 'Looters'
Ghostly Calm in Iraq as Soldiers Fight Homesickness, Boredom
'Cops: Baghdad' Scores Low in Nielsen Overnights
Teenage Loiterers Plague New Baghdad Galleria Food Court

Volatile Arab Street Seethes With Anger
Seething Arab Street Angry, Volatile
Fist Shaking Continues as Arab Street Explodes Into Volatile Seethingness

Command officials in Doha said the container contents indicated the effort was designed to reach beyond Iraq's borders and extend to world capitals:

Chirac: Rebuilding Effort Must Include Role for UN, France
Chirac Demands Role for French Oil Companies
Chirac Demands French Role in Iraq Banking System
French ex-President Chirac Demands Free Egg Roll at Wok N Go

Experts: Lack of WMD Evidence Shows U.S. Invasion Illegitimate
Experts: Newly Found 'Weapon Labs' Likely ChemLawn Franchise
Experts: No Link Between WMDs, Atomic Mutation of Blix
Thousands Flee as Mothra, Gamera, Blix Battle in Stockholm

US Faces Diplomatic Backlash over UN Snub
Diplomatic Backlash Likely as NYPD Impounds de Villepin Mercedes
Growing International Calls For Backlash as US Again 'Forgets' UN Dues
UN Moves To Former Kmart in Passaic, NJ: Coming Diplomatic Backlash Seen

Part of the strategy, according to military analysts who decrypted the seized contingency headlines, was to foment continued opposition to the war, which Wright noted was completed in less time than the 1993 Branch Davidian standoff in Waco, Texas:

Thousands Protest in Paris as Iraq Occupation Continues
Hundreds Protest in Berlin as Vandals Destroy Priceless Saddam Statues
Dozens Protests in Montreal as Expos Move Franchise to Baghdad
Martha Burke Protests Iraqi Open at All-Male Basra Country Club

Iraqi Anger Rising at Shortages of Water, Food, Electricity
Road Rage Unchecked as Freeway Construction Delays Plague Tikrit
More Unrest Feared in Iraq As Cable TV Rates Hiked

Imperialism Feared as Iraqis Chafe Under US Occupation
Anarchy Feared as Iraqis Chafe at US Withdrawal
Chafing Feared as Iraqis Adopt Tight American Levis

"We expected something along these lines, but nothing to the extent we've so far discovered," said Wright, who noted the newspaper's apparent targeting of the gulf between Iraqi and western mores:

US-Style 'Democracy' Remains Pipe Dream in Iraq
Iraqis Not Ready For US-Imposed Constitution, Warn Observers
Chaos at Polls as Iraqi Seniors Confused by Butterfly Ballots

Iraqis Reject Consumerist Culture of US 'Liberators'
Obesity Epidemic in Iraq Linked to Krispy Kreme Craze
Iraqi Woman Files Suit Over Coffee Spill at Umm Qasr McDonalds

While questions about the political make-up of a post-Saddam Iraq are only now beginning to emerge, Wright said the information suggested, "continued, sporadic skirmishing over the course of domestic events."

Bush Seen as Vulnerable on War Costs, Recession
Rampant Speculation Drives Dow to Unsustainable Levels
Economic 'Recovery' Spells Tough Times For Repo, Pawn Industries

Latest Verbal Gaffe Raises Renewed Questions About Bush Intelligence
Poll: Bush Agenda Seen as Too Extreme
Democrats Unite Behind Edwards, Sharpton; Vow 'Peace, Reparations, Lawsuits For All'

Poll: Enron, Chads, Augusta Country Club Top List of Voter Concerns
Democrats Sweep Races in Berkeley, TriBeCa; GOP Maintains Grip on Power
Bush Loses Decisively in Upper West Side; is Re-Elected
Inarticulate Bush Faces Lengthy Lame Duck Term

Despite the size of the stockpile, some officials doubted whether the New York Times actually intended to use the headlines.

"Even when weaponized, these things don't really pack a punch anymore," said Wright. "The shock and awe appear to have worn thin in this case."

CNSNews.com satire correspondent David Burge is embedded with the 113th Mobile Pundit Reconnaissance Squadron in western Iraq.

[Electrophil]

Ar Rutbah, Iraq (CNSNews.com) - Troops from the U.S. Army's 113th Mobile Pundit Reconnaissance Squadron Tuesday uncovered what appears to have been a secret New York Times headline facility in western Iraq.

Hilarious. This I would buy hands down. No proof is necessary!

[Electrophil]

Originally Posted by mohrds

I only admitted that Fox sways conservative, but not Republican...

How about we just ban political parties all together? Then we are voting for one person and their ideas instead of who the party thinks has the best chance of defeating the other party...

The really good candidates are not nominated because the are to centered and not enough of the fringe.

Imagine a country with moderates running things. Instead of the wild pendulum every 4 years, we get a gentle swaying.

Exactly, cause that's how most US citizens are anyway. They are chugging along in the middle. If we were ran from the middle, things would surely be better. At least the battles in Washington wouldn't be so outrageous. The bad news is, the news media would have to make up stuff just to grab interest.

Oh...wait... That's right, they already are.

[SilverSpear]

Originally Posted by POWER on demand

Oh yeah it must have been ketchup that sadaam used to kill tons of his own people.

Not ketchup, rather hot sauce.

Published on Saturday, March 1, 2003 by the Toronto Star
Did Saddam Hussein Gas His Own People?
Reality Checks Needed During War

by Don Sellar

Halabja (pop. 80,000) is a small Kurdish city in northern Iraq. On Wednesday, the Star reminded readers that Saddam Hussein's Iraqi army killed 5,000 Kurds in a 1988 chemical weapons attack on Halabja near the end of a bloody, eight-year war with Iran.


The statement that Saddam was responsible for gassing the Kurds — his own people — was straightforward.

Indeed, U.S. President George W. Bush has used similar language about the disaster at Halabja in making a case for a military strike to oust Saddam.

Yet the Star also reported, in a Jan. 31 Opinion page column, that there's reason to believe the story about Saddam "gassing his own people" at Halabja may not even be true.

Curious about those contradictory reports, and prodded by Star reader Bill Hynes, the ombud decided to examine how this paper covered the Halabja story 15 years ago, when Washington was tilting toward Saddam's side in the Iran-Iraq war.

The Star's early coverage was skimpy. I found no breaking news story about the March 16, 1988 gas attack on the city.

But four days later, a Reuters News Agency dispatch (filed from Cyprus) said Kurds, fighting on the Iranian side, had managed to seize Halabja and nearby villages "where Iran has accused Iraq of using chemical weapons against Kurds."

Two days later, Reuters reported, Iran was alleging that 5,000 Kurds were killed by chemical bombs dropped on Halabja by the Iraqi Air Force.

Iranian officials put injured Iraqi civilians on display to back up their charges. An Iranian doctor said mustard gas and "some agent causing long-term damage" had been deployed.

Burn victim Ahmad Karim, 58, a street vendor from Halabja, told a reporter: "We saw the (Iraqi) planes come and use chemical bombs. I smelled something like insecticide."

Two weeks later, the fog of war over Halabja thickened a little when the Star ran a Reuters story saying a United Nations team had examined Iraqi and Iranian civilians who had been victims of mustard gas and nerve gas.

"But the two-man team did not say how or by whom the weapons had been used," the Reuters story said.

It explained that Iraq and Iran were accusing each other of using poison gas in violation of the 1925 Geneva Protocol against chemical weapons.

In September, 1988, the Star quoted an unnamed U.N. official as saying the Security Council chose to condemn the use of gas in the Iran-Iraq war rather than finger Iraq, generally believed to have lost the war with Iran.

The same story said Iraq's claims that Iran also had used chemical weapons "have not been verified."

Buried in that story by freelancer Trevor Rowe was an intriguing piece of information. Rowe reported the Iraqi forces had attacked Halabja when it "was occupied by Iranian troops. Five thousand Kurdish civilians were reportedly killed."

Let's fast-forward to Jan. 31 of this year, when The New York Times published an opinion piece by Stephen C. Pelletiere, the CIA's senior political analyst on Iraq during the 1980s.

In the article, Pelletiere said the only thing known for certain was that "Kurds were bombarded with poison gas that day at Halabja. We cannot say with any certainty that Iraqi chemical weapons killed the Kurds."

Pelletiere said the gassing occurred during a battle between Iraqis and Iranians.

"Iraq used chemical weapons to try to kill Iranians who had seized the town ... The Kurdish civilians who died had the misfortune to be caught up in that exchange. But they were not Iraq's main target," he wrote.

The former CIA official revealed that immediately after the battle the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency investigated and produced a classified report that said it was Iranian gas that killed the Kurds.

Both sides used gas at Halabja, Pelletiere suggested.

"The condition of the dead Kurds' bodies however, indicated they had been killed with a blood agent — that is, a cyanide-based gas — which Iran was known to use. The Iraqis, who are thought to have used mustard gas in the battle, are not known to have possessed blood agents at the time."

"A War Crime Or an Act of War?" was the way The Times' headline writer neatly summed up Pelletiere's argument.

No doubt, Saddam has mistreated Kurds during his rule. But it's misleading to say, so simply and without context, that he killed his own people by gassing 5,000 Kurds at Halabja.

The fog of war that enveloped the battle at Halabja in 1988 never really lifted. With a new war threatening in Iraq, it's coming back stronger than ever.

Journalists risking their lives to cover an American-led attack on Iraq would face many obvious obstacles in trying to get at the truth.

In light of that, editors need to consider assigning staff back home to do reality checks on claims and counter-claims made in the fog of war.

As our retrospective on the Halabja story suggests, the bang-bang coverage — gripping though it may be — may not be enough to get the job done.

Don Sellar is the Toronto Star's ombudsman.
-------------------------------------------

What is a news ombudsman?

A news ombudsman receives and investigates complaints from newspaper readers or listeners or viewers of radio and television stations about accuracy, fairness, balance and good taste in news coverage. He or she recommends appropriate remedies or responses to correct or clarify news reports.

[Noir]

Originally Posted by Bipa

Published on Saturday, March 1, 2003 by the Toronto Star
Did Saddam Hussein Gas His Own People?
Reality Checks Needed During War

by Don Sellar

No doubt, Saddam has mistreated Kurds during his rule. But it's misleading to say, so simply and without context, that he killed his own people by gassing 5,000 Kurds at Halabja.

The fog of war that enveloped the battle at Halabja in 1988 never really lifted. With a new war threatening in Iraq, it's coming back stronger than ever.

Don Sellar is the Toronto Star's ombudsman.
-------------------------------------------

What is a news ombudsman?

A news ombudsman receives and investigates complaints from newspaper readers or listeners or viewers of radio and television stations about accuracy, fairness, balance and good taste in news coverage. He or she recommends appropriate remedies or responses to correct or clarify news reports.

You Canastuckians have become a thorn in our sides. If you keep spreading rumors, we'll have to take over Canastuckistan and steal your wimmenz! Saddam did it. We know he did it. He knows he did it. The dead Kurds knows he did it. Hell my mum's dog knows he did it.