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  #1  
Old 10-05-2002, 05:25 PM
rsmcgaugh
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engine cuts out when starting and while driving at any and every speed!

This is to expound on my earlier thread regarding my engine cut off problem. Just to recap, I have a 1992 Subaru SVX-LSL. The engine cuts off while I am driving. The cut offs happen at low speeds, at high speeds and sometimes when I start the car, particularly if I've already driven the car and the engine is still warm. In the latter instance, the check engine light will come on and stay on until it dies as I try to drive away. as soon as it starts up without the check engine light coming on, I will then be able to drive away without the engine cutting off. However, it may die again at anytime and at any speed without warning. I've taken it to the dealer three times and the local repair shop twice and neither can find anything wrong except for a bad solenoid on the transmission, which they said can be fixed for about $2,000, however, they won't guarantee that that will fix the problem. As a matter of fact, the local repair shop doesn't think that the solenoid replacement is the problem and recommends not to fix the solenoid until the engine cutting off problem is fixed. I sought advice from you guys before with no real response, but I am trying this again. I also notice that when I first start the car the power light blinks several times before it goes out. Does this mean anything?
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  #2  
Old 10-05-2002, 05:34 PM
Boone
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The blinking power light means the TCU has stored a failure code. Check the how-to locker to decode the problem with your transmission. As for the cutting out, I've seen this happen when there is a bad connection at the alternator or it's ground. B.

Last edited by Boone; 10-05-2002 at 05:39 PM.
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  #3  
Old 10-05-2002, 06:18 PM
lee lee is offline
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Boone talked about the tranny. I agree with the dealer that a bad transmission solenoid will not likely fix an engine cut-out problem.

Did the dealer tell you about any stored trouble codes from the check engine light coming on? Are there other symptoms when it happens? Does all the dash lights come on like they would be before the engine starts up, or do they go blank? Can it be immediately restarted? How does it run just before it dies, and when you get it running again is it OK then? Have you checked obvious things like the major ground points? I'm wondering if one (or more) of the major sensors has a wiring issue. Can you check conections of the O2 sensors, the throttle position sensor, etc. - just disconnect, examine the connecter for serious corrosion and reconnect. Might even reach up under the dash and see if the connectors to the ECU are secure. Do you know if any electrical work was recently done? When the last time the air & fuel filter were changed?
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  #4  
Old 10-06-2002, 10:05 AM
rsmcgaugh
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Yes, the dealer told me about the solenoid problem as a stored code and stated that there were no other stored codes as did the local repair shop. Additionally, both the dealer and the repair shop stated that the car would not shut off on them after numerous road tests, which I find amazing as it has no trouble shutting off on me almost each time I drive it. There are no other symptoms when the engine cuts off. All of the dash lights come on after a cut off. It starts immediately every time, however, when the check engine light stays on, the engine when die when you put it in drive. If it starts without the check engine light coming on, then it will stay started when you put it in drive, however, it may die again at any time and at any speed. Please note that it runs fine just before dying and gives no warning that it is about to cut off, hoever, occasionally, the engine will lose power and then regain power without cutting off. I haven't checked anything, however, my brother checked all of the connections after I got it back from the dealer, who purportedly gave it the $600 tune up and maintenance check. Electrical work was done at least a year ago when some of the control buttons stopped working. After the electrical work, all of the control buttons worked again, however, a few of the leds on the control buttons did not work. The air and the fuel filter were recently changed for the umpteenth time. Someone stated that the cause may be a bad airflow sensor. When I explained this to the repair shop, he said it is possible, however, he would not reccommend changing it until they found the cause of the cutting off.
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  #5  
Old 10-06-2002, 10:40 AM
lee lee is offline
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I'm sorry, but you seem to have one of the worst type problems to track down - an intermitent problem with no tell-tale clues. If they kept a record of any trouble codes that might help you get started - do you know what they were besides the solenoid?

If it was me (do you have the wiring diagrams - do you have the time/inclination?), I'd start taking off all the ground point connectors and cleaning them and then reattaching. I'm not good enough to diagnose intermitents remotely, but I would say an majority of these type problems I have seen were all traced to a bad ground somewhere in the system. You've undoubtedly seen a corroded battery terminal. Well, the other ends of wires can do the same and effectively ruin the ground point.
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  #6  
Old 10-06-2002, 09:14 PM
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vkykam vkykam is offline
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If the check engine light has come on at any point, the code would be stored in the ECU for sure. I would suggest leaving the TCU code for now, and work on locating the engine problem first. I think with a code, it'll be far easier to find the problem.

Also, I would recommend disconnect the battery overnight to reset all previous code to eliminiate any potential confusion. This way, when the CE light comes on again, you know exactly the code that is generated.

Here's the code retrieval instructions, plucked from a previous thread:

To retrieve codes:

1) Remove the kick panel just beside the left foot rest on the driver's side.
2) Locate blue wires.
3) Locate black connector. Hold it notch up.
4) With ignition off, insert one of the wires into top row, 2nd pin from left.
5) Turn key to on position, but do not start the car.
6) Watch blinky check engine light on dashboard. Count blinks. Long blinks = 10, Short blinks = 1.
7) Keep watching blinky light until you get mesmorized.

To clear codes (after problem has been resolved):

1) With engine off, stick the blue wires to 1st and 2nd pin in the top row counting from left on the black connector, with notch facing up.
2) Start car. Shut off car. Remove pins.
3) Read codes to make sure they are clear. No codes = steady blinks at 1/4 second intervals.

CODE PROBABLE CAUSE
11 Crank Angle Sensor or Circuit
12 Starter Switch or Circuit
13 Cam Position Sensor or Circuit (TDC Sensor on Justy)
14 Fuel Injector No. 1 (Legacy, Impreza, Justy, SVX)
14 Fuel Injector No. 1 and 2 (XT, Loyale, GL, DL)
15 Fuel Injector No. 2 (Legacy, Impreza, Justy, SVX)
15 Fuel Injector No. 3 and 4 (Loyale, GL, DL)
15 Fuel Injector No. 5 and 6 (XT-6)
16 Fuel Injector No. 3 (Legacy, Impreza, Justy, SVX)
16 Fuel Injector No. 3 and 4 (XT)
17 Fuel Injector No. 4 (Legacy, Impreza, SVX)
17 Fuel injector No. 1 and 2 (XT-6)
18 Fuel Injector No. 5 (SVX)
19 Fuel Injector No. 6 (SVX)
21 Coolant Temperature Sensor or Circuit
22 Knock Sensor or Circuit (Right Side on SVX)
23 Air Flow Meter or Circuit (Exc. Justy)
23 Pressure Sensor (Justy)
24 Air Control Valve or Circuit (Exc. Justy)
24 Idle Speed Control Solenoid Valve (Justy)
25 Fuel injector No. 3 and 4 (XT-6)
26 Air Temperature Sensor (Justy)
28 Knock Sensor No. 2 (SVX, Left Side)
29 Crank Angle Sensor (SVX, No. 2)
31 Throttle Position Sensor or Circuit
32 Oxygen Sensor or Circuit (No. 1, Right Side, On SVX)
33 Vehicle Speed Sensor (VSS) or Circuit
34 EGR Solenoid or Circuit
35 Purge Control Solenoid or Circuit
36 Air Suction Solenoid Valve (Impreza)
36 Ignitor Circuit (Justy)
37 Oxygen Sensor (No. 2, Left Side, On SVX)
38 Engine Torque Control (SVX)
41 Air/Fuel Adaptive Control
42 Idle Switch or Circuit
43 Throttle Switch (Justy)
44 Wastegate Duty Solenoid (Turbo Models)
45 Pressure Sensor Duty Solenoid (Turbo Models)
45 Atmospheric Pressure Sensor or Circuit (Non- Turbo Models) 49
Airflow Sensor
51 Neutral Switch (Manual Transmission Models)
51 Inhibitor Switch (Automatic Transmission Models)
52 Parking Brake Switch (Exc. Justy)
52 Clutch Switch (Justy)
55 EGR Temperature Sensor or Circuit
56 EGR System
61 Parking Brake Switch (Loyale)
61 Fuel Tank Pressure Control Solenoid (Impreza)
62 Fuel Temperature Sensor (Impreza)
62 Electric Load Signal (Justy)
63 Fuel Tank Pressure Sensor (Impreza)
63 Blower Fan Switch (Justy)
65 Vacuum Pressure Sensor
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  #7  
Old 03-22-2003, 10:43 PM
Lasher
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OK, I'm having the same exact problem here with my car... I performed the ignition self-diagnosis, and the car reported #23, "air flow meter or circuit."

rsmcgaugh, we will fix this together.. hopefully with the help of our our precious forum-members...

I had a "mechanic" (some dude I met at work that seemed to know what he was talking about) check out one of the air flow sensors..

let's get something straight real quick.. the Chilton Subaru book refers to the electrical unit next to the air filter as an air flow meter... I have been told by several "car guys" that this unit is the "master air flow sensor"... now the part that my "mechanic" checked out was towards the rear of the combustion chamber; another air flow sensor, apparently.. (Not sure what the Chilton book refers to this as)

Anyway, he told me that the inside of this part should not be able to be moved (rotated) by hand, but he did just that.. So he is telling me that this part should be replaced... I called several auto part stores and not a single one stocked this part, nor could they even order it...

So that's where I am today......

LET'S FIGURE THIS OUT!!
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  #8  
Old 03-23-2003, 01:55 AM
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Beav Beav is offline
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Lasher - You and/or your friends are confused. If you are relaying their exact words do not allow them near your car again.

rsmc' - You need to check the code(s) yourself and post what you find. I'm particularly interested in the transmission code(s). It could be that it's a code for the torque convertor lock-up solenoid. This could cause stalling when the car is idling or near idle, as it can produce an effect similar to not pushing the clutch in on a manual transmission car. I'm having difficulty believing the transmission error(s) are the cause of stalling, however.

The high speed cut-out is another story, it's doubtful that the transmission could be the culprit for this. If the car is starting immediately after stalling I'd rule out the fuel pump and filter, the engine is normally difficult to restart quickly after a fuel pump related shut-down. Given the facts that a) an engine requires air, fuel and spark to operate and b) the fuel pump was just given a 'probably o.k.' , I'd concentrate on the controls. (by 'air' I'm referring to the basic integrity of the mechanical portion of the engine - generally as long as the engine runs well until it stalls it can be assumed to be o.k. as well.)

I use the term 'controls' as on an electronically-controlled car the fuel portion is controlled in much the same way the spark portion is. Once the fuel arrives at the injectors the electronic controls come into play, especially if the engine is stalling and not just missing, surging, bucking, etc. Every car (make/model) responds to failing sensors in different ways. Some cars can tolerate failing sensors without stalling, some can't, some can work with certain sensors failing but not others. Early GMs will wig-out on a bad cooling sensor. A lot of Mitsubishis go to pieces over bad MAFs. It depends on the circuitry and the programming. However most can make do with disconnected sensors by going into 'limp home' otherwise known as 'open loop'. The computer substitutes programmed values in place of what a sensor would normally be 'telling' it, thereby allowing it to continue running. Not running perfectly, but running nonetheless.

As Lee said there could be a bad ground(s). There could also be bad power feed(s) just as easily. A failing power relay, a dying ignition switch or any of a multitude of items could be the cause. Generally when a check engine light comes on a code will be stored, but not always. The best thing you might do to help at this point might be for you to become familiar and adept at retrieving codes from the ECU. My thinking is that when the car stalls and the check engine light is on you need to try to retrieve any codes at that point, without turning the ignition switch off, if possible. It seems that might be your best bet at this point.

I know how frustrating this can be, I deal with it quite often in my job. Intermittent problems suck, undoubtedly. It's even more difficult to diagnose them over the web. Hopefully you'll find something in here to help track down the problem, or at least narrow the field. Keep up with it and report back whatever/whenever you come up with something.
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  #9  
Old 03-23-2003, 10:13 AM
kuoh kuoh is offline
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I'm not sure what rotating part your mechanic is referring to, unless he is talking about the throttle cable assembly, in which case, he either has no idea what he's doing or is trying to rip you off.

Beav touched on this in his message, but you might want to check or clean the MAF sensor and connector, which is the air flow meter that the Chilton's manual is referring to. I know that a disconnected MAF sensor can cause the engine to run rough or stall. Perhaps one of these times when the engine is running badly you can try disconnecting and reconnecting the MAF sensor and see if it has any effect?

KuoH

Quote:
Originally posted by Lasher
let's get something straight real quick.. the Chilton Subaru book refers to the electrical unit next to the air filter as an air flow meter... I have been told by several "car guys" that this unit is the "master air flow sensor"... now the part that my "mechanic" checked out was towards the rear of the combustion chamber; another air flow sensor, apparently.. (Not sure what the Chilton book refers to this as)
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  #10  
Old 03-26-2003, 02:12 AM
Gabriel
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Hi everyone. I thought i should add my similar experiences to this thread. I have a 1992 SVX LsL touring, which I have owned since last November.

It has one major issue: The engine will cut out without warning, whether it is idling in neutral, or in POWER mode on a freeway onramp. AND in every possible situation in between these extremes.

Precisely what happens is the following: The transmission disengages (the car starts coasting) and the rev counter needle starts to drop to zero. Sometimes the transmission will re-engage at the last second with a thud and the car will continue to run. But usually, the rev needle falls all the way to zero, and ALL the dash lights come on. The steering becomes impossibly heavy, as the car is effectively off. The engine simply stops, there is no coughing or spluttering or vibration beforehand.

To get going again, I have to slap the shifter to neutral, turn the key off- and then on again after a second- the car always starts first time. Then i can put it in drive, and i have power again.

Sometimes, when i see the rev needle starting to sink to zero, I try to fight with the transmission by stabbing at the gas pedal in an ettempt to make the transmission kick back into life. Sometimes this works, and it reconnects with a jerk, but usually this action merely prolongs the coasting period before all the dash lights come on.

This problem used to occur about once a week, a few months ago. Now it happens about 5 times a day.

I took it to a car place here in Santa Barbara, but on their test drive they were unable to replicate the problem. They fixed a ground cable in the computer, but the problem still occurs, now with even more frequency.

I have seen the power light flash on occasion when I restarted the car after it cut out. But the service staff said that there were no codes stored in either engine or transmission when i had the car serviced.

I have also seen the check engine light flash during this problem, but only on one occasion, when i tried particularly hard with the gas pedal to stop the problem from occurring.

The problem is more likely to occur when driving from cold.

Anyone have any ideas?
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  #11  
Old 03-26-2003, 06:49 AM
mattski mattski is offline
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A similar scenario happened to me once afer my wife had driven the car and disengaged the alarm. When I started driving it, I noticed that the switch was off, so I turned it on and the engine died. It re-started immediately and I have had no problems since.

So I wonder if this is alarm related.

Matt
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  #12  
Old 03-26-2003, 08:01 AM
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vkykam vkykam is offline
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Gabriel,

If you're driving a 92, try pulling the ECU codes yourself. Not to say I don't trust dealers, but if you've seen the check engine light come on, the code should be stored, if even for a split second. If it doesn't, then there could be a problem with the ECU itself.

As for your problem, a replacement of the MAF solved it for me. Symptoms were very similar, however, mine only acted up when the engine was warm or hot. It was worst after driving for distances and then coming to a stop (i.e. getting off the freeway).

If you can find a used MAF from the junkers, it may be a good idea to buy and and swap it in to see. If it doesn't work, I'm sure one of us around here will need a MAF at some point...

VK

Quote:
Originally posted by Gabriel
Hi everyone. I thought i should add my similar experiences to this thread. I have a 1992 SVX LsL touring, which I have owned since last November.

It has one major issue: The engine will cut out without warning, whether it is idling in neutral, or in POWER mode on a freeway onramp. AND in every possible situation in between these extremes.

Precisely what happens is the following: The transmission disengages (the car starts coasting) and the rev counter needle starts to drop to zero. Sometimes the transmission will re-engage at the last second with a thud and the car will continue to run. But usually, the rev needle falls all the way to zero, and ALL the dash lights come on. The steering becomes impossibly heavy, as the car is effectively off. The engine simply stops, there is no coughing or spluttering or vibration beforehand.

To get going again, I have to slap the shifter to neutral, turn the key off- and then on again after a second- the car always starts first time. Then i can put it in drive, and i have power again.

Sometimes, when i see the rev needle starting to sink to zero, I try to fight with the transmission by stabbing at the gas pedal in an ettempt to make the transmission kick back into life. Sometimes this works, and it reconnects with a jerk, but usually this action merely prolongs the coasting period before all the dash lights come on.

This problem used to occur about once a week, a few months ago. Now it happens about 5 times a day.

I took it to a car place here in Santa Barbara, but on their test drive they were unable to replicate the problem. They fixed a ground cable in the computer, but the problem still occurs, now with even more frequency.

I have seen the power light flash on occasion when I restarted the car after it cut out. But the service staff said that there were no codes stored in either engine or transmission when i had the car serviced.

I have also seen the check engine light flash during this problem, but only on one occasion, when i tried particularly hard with the gas pedal to stop the problem from occurring.

The problem is more likely to occur when driving from cold.

Anyone have any ideas?
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  #13  
Old 03-26-2003, 09:22 AM
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svx_commuter svx_commuter is offline
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Isn't there a switch connected to the gear selector in the console that prevenets the engine from starting in Park? Can this switch be the cause of the trouble?
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  #14  
Old 03-26-2003, 09:45 AM
kuoh kuoh is offline
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There is a stock starter-kill circuit that prevents the starter from engaging in any drive gear, but it would not interrupt the ignition if already running. It is possible to install ignition-kill (anti-hijack) systems that could interrupt the ignition if there was a wiring or component failure, but this would likely be installed in combination with an aftermarket alarm system. If you have a stock system, then this would be a very unlikely cause.

KuoH
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  #15  
Old 03-26-2003, 03:16 PM
Lasher
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this is incredibly agitating....
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