click click click...start? click click start!

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by SoCal LS-L

??? Which car are you referring to? The main cable goes directly to the starter from the positive battery post. Bosche relay mod aside, from the very fact that the starter clicks when the key is turned means its getting the proper 12V signal to the solenoid.

Two main things remain when you have a starter click but not turn the engine: Dirty contacts not allowing enough amperage to turn the flywheel, or a bad starter. I have seen both many times, thats why the next logical step is to clean contacts, then bench test the starter.

I was referring to the post above mine ----With so many cars apparently having this trouble one might think that someone would have isolated the culprit by now.

As you observe, a click does not mean that voltage is getting through. The solenoid may have faulty contacts, may be sticking or whatever. Obviously the voltage at the starter windings should be checked.

[SoCal LS-L]

Originally Posted by Trevor

I was referring to the post above mine ----With so many cars apparently having this trouble one might think that someone would have isolated the culprit by now.

As you observe, a click does not mean that voltage is getting through. The solenoid may have faulty contacts, may be sticking or whatever. Obviously the voltage at the starter windings should be checked.

I havent had to yank the starter on mine yet, but it looks like a joyous time. The last time a starter crapped out on me, it was Hot August Nights in Reno, was cruising the strip in my Toyota 4x4, stalled it, click click, then 5 drunk college guys pushed it for me and cheered wildly when I popped the clutch and it kicked over. I dunno why that popped into my head, starters can just crap out at the worst times

[Trevor]

Usually on a wet, windy, Sunday night, way out in the sticks.

Down here, we call in the local rugby players and put down a scrum.

Originally Posted by SoCal LS-L

I havent had to yank the starter on mine yet, but it looks like a joyous time. The last time a starter crapped out on me, it was Hot August Nights in Reno, was cruising the strip in my Toyota 4x4, stalled it, click click, then 5 drunk college guys pushed it for me and cheered wildly when I popped the clutch and it kicked over. I dunno why that popped into my head, starters can just crap out at the worst times

[VICSVX]

sorry guys...busy with work latly:/

but i tried the message archives and nothing shows up....i posted the problem before and now luck

can someone post the thread please?

[kwren]

Originally Posted by SoCal LS-L

??? Bosche relay mod aside, from the very fact that the starter clicks when the key is turned means its getting the proper 12V signal to the solenoid.
Sorry friend... Not true... It doesn't take a full 12V to get a click. When this fault occurs, it is more like a fraction of a click and much softer than the click you are thinking about.

Two main things remain when you have a starter click but not turn the engine: Dirty contacts not allowing enough amperage to turn the flywheel, or a bad starter.

Sorry again... You just got to be there

Keith ................

[kwren]

Originally Posted by Trevor

Best to take the logical approach and properly check for voltage drop, all along the tenuous electrical path involved, which includes many sets of interlocking control contacts.

Trevor, that is an easy one.

The voltage drop is right out of the ignition switch, the terminal that has voltage when the ignition switch is turned to the start position. When the voltage reads about 8,5 volts instead of 12+ish right on the ignition switch. At the same time the voltage supplied to the ignition switch is the full battery voltage.

If you put a jumper between the full battery voltage wire to the ignition switch, over to the starter terminal wire on the ignition switch, and test the voltage going to the starter at that point, the voltage will drop to about 8.5 volts. It is like you are testing for voltage from ground potential to a spot between 2 components in a series circuit.

I have spent weeks on this thing, change that to months... Things have to make sense to me and the most logical things I could come up with are all impossible. I have to reconcile myself to just being thankful...
I no longer care why the voltage drops.

Keith

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by kwren

Trevor, that is an easy one.

The voltage drop is right out of the ignition switch, the terminal that has voltage when the ignition switch is turned to the start position. When the voltage reads about 8,5 volts instead of 12+ish right on the ignition switch. At the same time the voltage supplied to the ignition switch is the full battery voltage.

This will indicate that the ignition switch is not making proper contact and is faulty, but not by means of the best method.

If you put a jumper between the full battery voltage wire to the ignition switch, over to the starter terminal wire on the ignition switch, and test the voltage going to the starter at that point, the voltage will drop to about 8.5 volts. It is like you are testing for voltage from ground potential to a spot between 2 components in a series circuit.

If you are a magician, and best use a wooly jumper.
The proper way to test for voltage drop across a switch, is to turn on the switch with the load in place, then test for voltage across the switch, i.e. with the test probes to each side of the switch.

I have spent weeks on this thing, change that to months... Things have to make sense to me and the most logical things I could come up with are all impossible. I have to reconcile myself to just being thankful...
I no longer care why the voltage drops.
Keith

Sorry Kwren, but I am now not surprised. You will have to improve your logic and knowledge regarding testing. Not that easy.

Cheers, Trevor.

[SoCal LS-L]

Originally Posted by kwren

Originally Posted by SoCal LS-L, and Keith disagrees
??? Bosche relay mod aside, from the very fact that the starter clicks when the key is turned means its getting the proper 12V signal to the solenoid.

Sorry friend... Not true... It doesn't take a full 12V to get a click. When this fault occurs, it is more like a fraction of a click and much softer than the click you are thinking about.

Two main things remain when you have a starter click but not turn the engine: Dirty contacts not allowing enough amperage to turn the flywheel, or a bad starter.

Sorry again... You just got to be there Keith ................

I HAVE been there, im not talking about a little baby click like a relay... if the starter itself clicks or taps when the key is turned, then SOMETHING is telling it to do that right?? (ie. its getting the signal) I dont know what clicking YOU hear, but maybe you should suspect some bats have flown into the ol' belfry

P.S. Remember I said Bosche relay aside.

[TomsSVX]

Originally Posted by VICSVX

sorry guys...busy with work latly:/

but i tried the message archives and nothing shows up....i posted the problem before and now luck

can someone post the thread please?

Link that people are not posting

Tom

[oab_au]

Originally Posted by SoCal LS-L

I HAVE been there, im not talking about a little baby click like a relay... if the starter itself clicks or taps when the key is turned, then SOMETHING is telling it to do that right?? (ie. its getting the signal) I dont know what clicking YOU hear, but maybe you should suspect some bats have flown into the ol' belfry

P.S. Remember I said Bosche relay aside.

Chris sure something is telling it to do that, but the current that is needed to pull the starter in, around 25 to 30 amps is not being delivered to the starter. It is the resistance of the wiring, and contacts that deteriorated over time, that reduce the current flow to a point that it is not sufficient to complete the function. The reason .we fit the relay, that was always a standard fitting on US autos.

Harvey.

[SoCal LS-L]

Originally Posted by oab_au

Chris sure something is telling it to do that, but the current that is needed to pull the starter in, around 25 to 30 amps is not being delivered to the starter. It is the resistance of the wiring, and contacts that deteriorated over time, that reduce the current flow to a point that it is not sufficient to complete the function. The reason .we fit the relay, that was always a standard fitting on US autos.

Harvey.

Wait you mean the positive cable directly to the starter right? That was the point of my previous post (with the Colbert pic), that enough amperage needs to reach the starter itself to crank the engine. Thats why I said check the wiring and contacts first, then yank the starter for bench testing...... a bad starter does the same thing as bad contacts, click click click, albeit a different kind of click.

My point was if the starter clicks kicking out the drive gear, but does not spin it, its either not enough amperage fed to the starter or a bad starter.

[oab_au]

Originally Posted by SoCal LS-L

Wait you mean the positive cable directly to the starter right? That was the point of my previous post (with the Colbert pic), that enough amperage needs to reach the starter itself to crank the engine. Thats why I said check the wiring and contacts first, then yank the starter for bench testing...... a bad starter does the same thing as bad contacts, click click click, albeit a different kind of click.

My point was if the starter clicks kicking out the drive gear, but does not spin it, its either not enough amperage fed to the starter or a bad starter.

No mate You introduced that one.
I believe we are talking about the starter solenoid circuit. Sure starters do have problems, but I don't think I would be over stating it if I said that at least 90% of all SVXs that experience, just a click, when the key is turned, have the trouble that I have suggested, and will be assisted by adding the Bosch relay mod.

Harvey.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by oab_au

No mate You introduced that one.
I believe we are talking about the starter solenoid circuit. Sure starters do have problems, but I don't think I would be over stating it if I said that at least 90% of all SVXs that experience, just a click, when the key is turned, have the trouble that I have suggested, and will be assisted by adding the Bosch relay mod.

Harvey.

Originally Posted by oab_au

Chris sure something is telling it to do that, but the current that is needed to pull the starter in, around 25 to 30 amps is not being delivered to the starter. It is the resistance of the wiring, and contacts that deteriorated over time, that reduce the current flow to a point that it is not sufficient to complete the function. The reason we fit the relay, that was always a standard fitting on US autos.

Harvey.

Your words are directly in reference to a wire that delivers, “25 to 30 amps”. Once again you needed to include within your reply, your often used phrase, “did not explain myself very well.”

[kwren]

Originally Posted by Trevor

This will indicate that the ignition switch is not making proper contact and is faulty, but not by means of the best method.

And of course you are right, Trevor. When this is the case, obviously it is a faulty ignition switch.

Oh, how I wish life was that simple.

That is how I became the proud owner of a brand new "click-click" ignition switch.

I almost became the proud owner of a second new ignition switch.

Of course since the problem is erratic, as soon as I got the new switch installed and tried to start the car, it started right up! Wow, another success story. My excitment was short lived because after turning off the engine and restarting it to move the car, "click-click"

I checked the voltage as I did originally, test from the start terminal on the ignition to ground potential, as you almost suggested, and got the lo voltage again. I would have no reason to test across the terminals as long as I make sure 12+ volts come to the ignition switch, which I did.


If you are a magician, and best use a wooly jumper.
The proper way to test for voltage drop across a switch, is to turn on the switch with the load in place, then test for voltage across the switch, i.e. with the test probes to each side of the switch.

Again, My goal was not to test for a voltage drop across the switch. I wanted to see if the volts were coming out of the start terminal when I turned it to start. If 12+ volts were there, I couldn't care less about voltage between the two terminals. I only went to the jumper thing because I couldn't believe what I was seeing with the lo voltage thing.

Sorry Kwren, but I am now not surprised. You will have to improve your logic and knowledge regarding testing. Not that easy.

Cheers, Trevor.

Trevor, do I really need to write a book for you and describe everything I have gone through with this? I am not trying to impress anyone with my testing ability but only trying to provide information that could possibly help someone else.

This network preforms a valuable function because most of us here that have information to share try to do it.
If you can provide any incite to this problem, hopefully your next set of comments on the subject will be of a positive nature.

Cheers back Trevor

Keith

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by kwren

Trevor, do I really need to write a book for you and describe everything I have gone through with this? I am not trying to impress anyone with my testing ability but only trying to provide information that could possibly help someone else.

This network preforms a valuable function because most of us here that have information to share try to do it.
If you can provide any incite to this problem, hopefully your next set of comments on the subject will be of a positive nature.

Cheers back Trevor

Keith

Keith,

You have correctly pointed out ----” This network performs a valuable function because most of us here that have information to share try to do it.”

However if the information is incorrect members are disadvantaged and may be needlessly confused and put to unnecessary work and inconvenience.

Advice posted remains' permanently recorded and can come up in a search and be used indefinitely.


“If you put a jumper between the full battery voltage wire to the ignition switch, over to the starter terminal wire on the ignition switch, and test the voltage going to the starter at that point, the voltage will drop to about 8.5 volts. It is like you are testing for voltage from ground potential to a spot between 2 components in a series circuit.”

You have clearly stated is incorrect and confusing to such an extent, that a member could wind up in a complete muddle. If a jumper from a point carrying battery voltage is connected to another point, that point will/can not measure 8.5 volts. (That is unless a completely different set of unusual circumstances exist.) There most certainly is no comparison as you suggest ---- “It is like you are testing for voltage from ground potential to a spot between 2 components in a series circuit.”

I tried to add a little humour with a smiley, thinking that you would simply “kick yourself,” over unintentional wording, but it now would appear that you consider your words valid.

As for --- “If you can provide any incite to this problem, hopefully your next set of comments on the subject will be of a positive nature”

There are several inhibiting switch points and circuits, involved in the feed from the ignition switch to the starter solenoid terminal. These differ from model to model and country to country, to such an extent that it is impossible to accurately describe an exact test procedure. Especially as data is not on hand, for every variation in the circuitry. I have very often pointed out the area to be examined, and this is all that I can do.

Cheers back, Trevor.