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  #46  
Old 03-23-2005, 08:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiketkd
That's what I've heard as well. The electronic awd system in the auto trans shifts torque much quicker and before any traction loss occurs. Changes in torque split can happen as a result of steering input, braking, gradient of road, etc.

In the 5MT viscous coupling awd, a change in torque split only occurs when there's a loss of traction.

This is one reason why it's next to impossible to get an awd 4EAT stuck in snow, sand, mud, etc., but it's much easier with a 5MT...

...

-Chike
Hi Chike, I think there's a little more to it than just the viscous coupling on the 5MT vs the active center diff on 4eat. The standard viscous center diff on the 5MT is very weak. For all intents, its an open diff. With a stronger viscous coupling on the center diff, I'd guess that at least as straight line traction goes, the 5MT could do much better.
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  #47  
Old 03-23-2005, 10:58 PM
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One thing I would suggest be kept in mind is that the TCU does not have any sensors that are able to measure torque split. The readings given by the select monitor are only duty-cycle readings. A 10%, 50%, or 90% duty cycle does not necessarily mean you are getting 10%, 50%, or 90% torque transfer to the rear wheels. This is especially true if the transmission isn't in top condition, but even under the best possible circumstances, input values are not a good indicator of response. For example, half-opened valve does not mean only half the flow, or half pressure. In this example, if the plumbing is sufficiently large, a valve might need to be 90% closed to restrict any fluid at all. (Another example is the throttle valve in your car: the gas pedal. Ever notice how there isn't much difference between pushing the pedal halfway down and all the way down? There's a big difference between idle and 1/4 throttle, but not as much between 1/4 and 1/2, and almost no difference between 1/2 and wide open.)

I strongly suspect that the 90/10 and 50/50 figures are very much closer to the truth. I'd wager that even the slightest activity of the duty solenoid would necessarily cause at least a 90/10 torque split. It would be very difficult to modulate less than that. Even disabling the solenoid completely might not reduce torque split less than that. I'd also wager that the torque split does not increase significantly until the duty cycle reaches the upper 90% range. In these upper ranges, the degree of control would be marginal and it would be difficult to regulate torque split. In this upper range, torque split would probably be mostly 49% and 50%.

Although the TCU makes great efforts to precisely control the torque split, I think the reality is that it's mostly just on or off. Quite frankly, there's no large fault with that. It works very well that way.
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  #48  
Old 03-24-2005, 07:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbtoloczko
Hi Chike, I think there's a little more to it than just the viscous coupling on the 5MT vs the active center diff on 4eat. The standard viscous center diff on the 5MT is very weak. For all intents, its an open diff. With a stronger viscous coupling on the center diff, I'd guess that at least as straight line traction goes, the 5MT could do much better.
Good point Mychailo. I guess changing to an adjustable STI center diff would reap benefits...

-Chike
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  #49  
Old 03-24-2005, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UberRoo
One thing I would suggest be kept in mind is that the TCU does not have any sensors that are able to measure torque split. The readings given by the select monitor are only duty-cycle readings. A 10%, 50%, or 90% duty cycle does not necessarily mean you are getting 10%, 50%, or 90% torque transfer to the rear wheels. This is especially true if the transmission isn't in top condition, but even under the best possible circumstances, input values are not a good indicator of response. For example, half-opened valve does not mean only half the flow, or half pressure. In this example, if the plumbing is sufficiently large, a valve might need to be 90% closed to restrict any fluid at all. (Another example is the throttle valve in your car: the gas pedal. Ever notice how there isn't much difference between pushing the pedal halfway down and all the way down? There's a big difference between idle and 1/4 throttle, but not as much between 1/4 and 1/2, and almost no difference between 1/2 and wide open.)

I strongly suspect that the 90/10 and 50/50 figures are very much closer to the truth. I'd wager that even the slightest activity of the duty solenoid would necessarily cause at least a 90/10 torque split. It would be very difficult to modulate less than that. Even disabling the solenoid completely might not reduce torque split less than that. I'd also wager that the torque split does not increase significantly until the duty cycle reaches the upper 90% range. In these upper ranges, the degree of control would be marginal and it would be difficult to regulate torque split. In this upper range, torque split would probably be mostly 49% and 50%.

Although the TCU makes great efforts to precisely control the torque split, I think the reality is that it's mostly just on or off. Quite frankly, there's no large fault with that. It works very well that way.
UberRoo,

What you're saying makes good sense in theory, but is hard to prove in reality.

I've posted my results using the SSM when in the awd diagnostic mode. The excerpt I posted at the start of this thread from the Road & Track Guide about the multi-plate transfer clutch seemed to reiterate these findings.

If you or Harv can think of an elegant way to show the torque split is closer to 90/10 than 60/40 in normal driving (with no braking, acceleration or steering inputs affecting transfer) then by all means prove these results wrong.

-Chike
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  #50  
Old 03-24-2005, 08:04 AM
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Chike

You might have missed the question in my post back a ways;

Is it possible to buy a Subaru Select Monitor?

If so, from where and how much?

Thanks

Joe
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  #51  
Old 03-24-2005, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svxistentialist
Chike

You might have missed the question in my post back a ways;

Is it possible to buy a Subaru Select Monitor?

If so, from where and how much?

Thanks

Joe

I've seen them show up on EBAY from time to time...

I think I was told that in addition to the SSM you will also need the SVX module/adapter?????
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  #52  
Old 03-24-2005, 10:57 AM
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Chike, I think this is a great thread with very good information and I am glad to see someone take interest in "exploring" the SVX and it's working.

That is all I wanted to say and then I got thinking about this and driving around without a 90/10 split on the highway is really bad for mileage. Has anyone discussed the fact that the line pressure feeds the transfer solenoid? Perhaps maybe someday someone could correlate the line pressure and duty cycle from the transfer solenoid "C" with the actual pressure in the transfer housing. As I remember the EAT hydraulic line pressure varies with the throttle position. The line pressure which varies with the throttle setting then goes to the transfer solenoid "C" which regulates the hydraulic pressure going to the transfer clutch plates.

So if the line pressure resistor by the battery is pulled or if a vacuum switch kit (small car) is installed, the line pressure is maximum at all throttle settings. Then 100% line pressure is fed to the transfer solenoid all the time. In this case the duty cycle numbers you read would be regulating the maximum pressure all the time and the duty cycle numbers would be equated to the torque split front/rear.

When the line pressure is allowed to vary with the TPS setting, a lower line pressure is present with light throttle and maximum line pressure is available when the pedal is on the floor. This is totally independent of the transfer duty solenoid. A lower line pressure fed to the transfer solenoid that is wide open allows the low line pressure to enter the transfer clutch.

The higher the pressure is to the transfer clutches the closer the SVX is to 50/50 and the faster the transfer clutches or something else wears out due to the forced slipping of the clutch plates when cornering.
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  #53  
Old 03-24-2005, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiketkd
UberRoo,

What you're saying makes good sense in theory, but is hard to prove in reality.

I've posted my results using the SSM when in the awd diagnostic mode. The excerpt I posted at the start of this thread from the Road & Track Guide about the multi-plate transfer clutch seemed to reiterate these findings.

If you or Harv can think of an elegant way to show the torque split is closer to 90/10 than 60/40 in normal driving (with no braking, acceleration or steering inputs affecting transfer) then by all means prove these results wrong.

-Chike
Hi Chike,I am not trying to disprove what you say. I am only telling it like it is.

If you read back, on what I have written on the subject over the years, you will find that, I have allways been saying the same things. If you believed I said "that the split was allways fixed at 90/10", then you have not read what I have previously said.

When the Road & Track report is used as "The Gospel ",to prove a technical point, I do tend to worry about the resultant conclusion. Just in the bit that you have posted to 'reiterate your findings', we find that they say," that the signal for the Transfer, comes from the ABS brake system". They get a bit confused on the technical bits.

If you get to look at the Work Shop Manual, you will find a 3 Dimensional map, that shows the clutch pressure, relative to, selected gear, speed and throttle opening, that is a better guide to base conclusions on.

Harvey.
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  #54  
Old 03-24-2005, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svx_commuter
Chike, I think this is a great thread with very good information and I am glad to see someone take interest in "exploring" the SVX and it's working.

That is all I wanted to say and then I got thinking about this and driving around without a 90/10 split on the highway is really bad for mileage. Has anyone discussed the fact that the line pressure feeds the transfer solenoid? Perhaps maybe someday someone could correlate the line pressure and duty cycle from the transfer solenoid "C" with the actual pressure in the transfer housing. As I remember the EAT hydraulic line pressure varies with the throttle position. The line pressure which varies with the throttle setting then goes to the transfer solenoid "C" which regulates the hydraulic pressure going to the transfer clutch plates.

So if the line pressure resistor by the battery is pulled or if a vacuum switch kit (small car) is installed, the line pressure is maximum at all throttle settings. Then 100% line pressure is fed to the transfer solenoid all the time. In this case the duty cycle numbers you read would be regulating the maximum pressure all the time and the duty cycle numbers would be equated to the torque split front/rear.

When the line pressure is allowed to vary with the TPS setting, a lower line pressure is present with light throttle and maximum line pressure is available when the pedal is on the floor. This is totally independent of the transfer duty solenoid. A lower line pressure fed to the transfer solenoid that is wide open allows the low line pressure to enter the transfer clutch.

The higher the pressure is to the transfer clutches the closer the SVX is to 50/50 and the faster the transfer clutches or something else wears out due to the forced slipping of the clutch plates when cornering.
Gidáy John, don't think the select monitor knows the final pressure, yes it only knows the signal sent to the solenoid. The actual pressure on the plates, varies with the line pressure, that is set by the A solenoid.

To put it easy, the C solenoid does not vary line pressure. It varies a regulated pilot pressure, that moves a spool valve, that applies line pressure to the clutch plates. As John says the resultant torque split depends on the line pressure, that the TCU can not read.

So as John says. the only sure way to tell the clutch pressure affecting the torque split, is by monitoring the actual pressure applied to the clutch plates.
The plot thickens.
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  #55  
Old 03-24-2005, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svxistentialist
Chike

You might have missed the question in my post back a ways;

Is it possible to buy a Subaru Select Monitor?

If so, from where and how much?

Thanks

Joe
Sorry Joe. I have no idea where to purchase a Subaru Select Monitor.

I think Hocrest mentioned that they're sold on Ebay ocassionally - that would be the best bet if you ask me.

-Chike
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  #56  
Old 03-24-2005, 09:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oab_au
When the Road & Track report is used as "The Gospel ",to prove a technical point, I do tend to worry about the resultant conclusion.
Harv,

I'm not using the Road & Track Guide as "Gospel" - if you look over my initial post, you'll see I center my conclusion around the results of my field research using Tom's Subaru Select Monitor. As far as I know, no one has ever done testing on the torque split of the USDM SVX using a Subaru Select Monitor before...

How about looking at this problem in a different light. Do you know of anyone in OZ land who can loan you a SSM that'll be compatible with your VTD SVX? If so, I'll be interested in knowing the torque split values it'll show for your trans. If it accurately reads the preset 33.3%/66.7%, then I'm sure a similar licensed SSM is accurately reading the torque split on the 3 USDM SVXs we've tested (Svxfiles's, Green_eyed_lady & SVXRide).

BTW, I know you're not saying the torque split is 90/10 - as you keep mentioning that it's always changing (I have re-affirmed this as well in the findings I posted). However, you HAVE mentioned in previous threads that when cruising on a highway at a relatively constant speed, the torque split would be very close to this value (95/5-90/10). My point of contention, is that not once during my testing with the SSM did I ever see the torque split registering anything close to this value. Even at a standstill in 'D', it showed 60/40...

-Chike
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  #57  
Old 03-24-2005, 11:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiketkd
UberRoo,

What you're saying makes good sense in theory, but is hard to prove in reality.

I've posted my results using the SSM when in the awd diagnostic mode. The excerpt I posted at the start of this thread from the Road & Track Guide about the multi-plate transfer clutch seemed to reiterate these findings.

If you or Harv can think of an elegant way to show the torque split is closer to 90/10 than 60/40 in normal driving (with no braking, acceleration or steering inputs affecting transfer) then by all means prove these results wrong.

-Chike
You're definitely very right about one thing: It's very hard to prove. The best way to attempt to prove my theory is to hook up a pressure gauge to the transfer clutch pressure lines. I'm quite confident that if you compared the pressure readings to the duty cycle indicated on the select monitor, the readings would not closely relate. The pressure applied to the transfer clutch is a very good indicator of the amount of torque available to the rear wheels. (It is not however, a good indicator of the percent of torque applied to the rear wheels. This depends on the amount of traction available to the front wheels, the amount of slippage, and the amount of engine power supplied.)

Measuring the torque applied to the wheels requires some pretty fancy engineering. I don't think any of us are going to be proving anything any time soon. I'm pretty sure even Subaru doesn't know. They theorized, no doubt, but I'm sure trial and error was the method used to get it right. I do know for a fact that valves do not behave in a linear fashion. Even needle valves and other, more exotic, specially designed valves only behave in a linear fashion at specific available rates of flow and pressure with specific viscosity fluids. Fluid systems just aren't that well-behaved. Much like 1/4, 1/2, and 3/4 throttle doesn't make you go 25, 50, and 75 miles per hour respectively, very few valves will regulate pressure or flow in the same way.

I think that oab_au and I both appreciate that the select monitor only shows what the TCU is trying to achieve, but not what is actually happening. Regarding the information provided by Road & Track, what is their source? Did they test it? If so, how? (Personally, I detest the media because it is so chronically full of misinformation.) If you reeeally want to know what's happening, a pressure gauge will give you the best data. What it tells you is far, far more meaningful than the select monitor.
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  #58  
Old 03-25-2005, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiketkd
Harv,

I'm not using the Road & Track Guide as "Gospel" - if you look over my initial post, you'll see I center my conclusion around the results of my field research using Tom's Subaru Select Monitor. As far as I know, no one has ever done testing on the torque split of the USDM SVX using a Subaru Select Monitor before...

How about looking at this problem in a different light. Do you know of anyone in OZ land who can loan you a SSM that'll be compatible with your VTD SVX? If so, I'll be interested in knowing the torque split values it'll show for your trans. If it accurately reads the preset 33.3%/66.7%, then I'm sure a similar licensed SSM is accurately reading the torque split on the 3 USDM SVXs we've tested (Svxfiles's, Green_eyed_lady & SVXRide).

BTW, I know you're not saying the torque split is 90/10 - as you keep mentioning that it's always changing (I have re-affirmed this as well in the findings I posted). However, you HAVE mentioned in previous threads that when cruising on a highway at a relatively constant speed, the torque split would be very close to this value (95/5-90/10). My point of contention, is that not once during my testing with the SSM did I ever see the torque split registering anything close to this value. Even at a standstill in 'D', it showed 60/40...

-Chike
Well you don't need a Select Monitor to read the duty cycle that is sent from the TCU, any good digital multi meter can read duty cycle %, do it, I use a Fluke mod 19.
Doing the same to the VTD won't give the same results. It will only, show the % signal sent to the Limited Slip Clutch. The torque is divided by the gears in the diff, to the ratio of 36.4 F/ 63.6 R (not 33.3/66.7), the TCU does not control this split.
The LSC is set to the driving conditions, to prevent wheel spin. So like your model, it will be applied "standing still in D", because it is ready for the start, when wheel spin is most likely. Just that, in the Euro, it is the rear wheels that spin first, due to them getting the most torque.
I reckon if you cruised at about 80 MPH in D on a light throttle, you would see a lower signal. Not that it matters, as soon as you hit the pedal the signal would go up.

Harvey.
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  #59  
Old 03-25-2005, 07:28 PM
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Thinking on.

About what SVXCommuter said, about the line pressure to the Transfer clutch with the dropping resistor disconnected. This would explain the problems that some have with transfer clutch binding, when the resistor is disconnected, or if the Shift kit is adjusted too much.
In short, the TCU sets the line pressure by adjusting the A solenoid, it knows what the pressure should be, so it sends the apropreate signal to the clutch, but if the pressure is higher, due to the resistor, the clutch pressure will be higher, to cause the binding.

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  #60  
Old 03-25-2005, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oab_au
I reckon if you cruised at about 80 MPH in D on a light throttle, you would see a lower signal. Not that it matters, as soon as you hit the pedal the signal would go up.
Cool. That gives me something substantial that I can loook into. Next time I hang out with Svxfiles, I'll be sure to try that.

-Chike
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