I am on the verge of..

[subi-crosser]

Loading this USLESS time wasting machine onto the truck, hauling it out of town and BLOWING it BACK to HELL!

I have 'blogged' actions of the ****ty counsel on 4 sites that CARE about old cars and recieved so LITTLE support!
EVERYONE in this sorry town can have a piece of JUNK in their yard, but I can't have a RatRod in my CARPORT! A $30,000 car can be called 'JUNK' and nobody CARES!!

I have ALWAYS hated computers! I have always LOVED old cars.

I THOUGHT that people MIGHT just band together to protect old cars at old car sites.
Boy, was I mistaken! I might just have to spend my 'puter' time in the garage and library defending 'old cars' and forget that that MORON Algore invented a thing called the internet a couple decades ago!

The money I have WASTED on this intrusion to my 'leisure' time would have been better spent on welding supplies and bondo!

I will 'lurk', untill I get fed up enough to MURDER this sorry excuse for a life!! Computers are a 'tool'.
A lot of people FORGET that. I have known people that 'blow off' IMPORTANT things to 'defend citys' that are endangered on stupid games.
I am more inclined to draw a target onto the side and 'see' what kind of 'Group' I can spray with the 357!

Have a nice day! I have a 'life' to live.....

[BoxerFanatic]

you have my moral support, but I am not really sure what else to say.

It sucks.

It is patently unfair.

But I honestly am not sure what else to tell you. I wish I had the skills, tools, energy, and even a bit of money to work on cars like you do.

I guess all I can say, is keep fighting the good fight. And remember, people do commiserate with you, even if they aren't sure what to tell you about your situation.

Our free country is diminishing, and all you can do is make the choice to keep your head down, or charge up that hill, on each little battle.

Frankly, it is your property, and you should be able to tell other people, within reason, to go pound sand.

DO go live your life. That is the greatest revenge you can have over them. Don't let the man get you down!

[SilverSpear]

Yeah what he said...

What about your computer? still issues with it? Were you able to use KAV?

[SoCal LS-L]

I see that this counrty is going to hell every day...... I wont get into the reasons as I may be called racist, unpatriotic, or just plain mean, but the fact remains..... I can either get really pissed about it and ruin my own day, OR just do what I can to improve it and let the other **** roll off my back as theres no way to change everybody else.

You are only going to cause yourself grief and health problems by getting so worked up over these a-hole bastards.

Which is worth more to you.... your old cars, or your happiness?

You are right, they are wrong, but at the end sometimes letting the other party have their way is the best choice for YOU and those who care for you. Just dont do anything stupid that will land you in jail or worse!

[BoxerFanatic]

I'd tell them to go pound sand... and do my best to both impede, and otherwise ignore the bureaucrats.

But I wouldn't get rid of my property just to appease a bureaucrat.

Who actually ENFORCES this policy stuff? The Sheriff's Office? Maybe talk to them, and try to get them on your side. (you do vote for the Sheriff, which can make him a bit sympathetic.)

What TEETH are behind these bureaucrats? Deal with, or try to ward-off the teeth. Otherwise let the bureaucrat suck exhaust.

Maybe retain counsel, and try to sue the bureaucracy that is hassling you. Make their life difficult, with a settlement offer of leaving them alone, if they'll leave you alone. IF the statute is being incorrectly interpreted, or they feel the need to cover their a$$e$, they'll usually back down.

[benebob]

Originally Posted by BoxerFanatic

I'd tell them to go pound sand... and do my best to both impede, and otherwise ignore the bureaucrats.

But I wouldn't get rid of my property just to appease a bureaucrat.

Who actually ENFORCES this policy stuff? The Sheriff's Office? Maybe talk to them, and try to get them on your side. (you do vote for the Sheriff, which can make him a bit sympathetic.)

What TEETH are behind these bureaucrats? Deal with, or try to ward-off the teeth. Otherwise let the bureaucrat suck exhaust.

Maybe retain counsel, and try to sue the bureaucracy that is hassling you. Make their life difficult, with a settlement offer of leaving them alone, if they'll leave you alone. IF the statute is being incorrectly interpreted, or they feel the need to cover their a$$e$, they'll usually back down.

I already explained in length who enforces this stuff and the general process involved in it boxer. Bureaucrats simply do their jobs that the elected officials hire them to do. It is as simple as that. Getting them on your side when you are in violation is like getting a cop to rip up a ticket once its written and in the system. It can't be done w/o costing someone their job.

If you're too ignorant of our governmental sytem to understand that the democractic bureaucracy isn't the issue, his neighbors and the town which voted in the elected officials, who at public meetings adopt all ordinances with public input then maybe it is you who should suck exhaust. Why not kill the firemen who tell you that you must put working smoke dectectors in your house before you sell it as it encroaches on your freedom!

Is it possible that it was incorrectly interpreted? Sure, but ordinances are usually black and white. For example, any unregistered or uninspected vehicle is illegal to park out side of a garage in my Township. If you want to know what a garage is, you look at the definition. If there is not one then you go to the dictionary to define a garage. So as long you maintain registration and inspection they can't touch it no matter what it looks like, if it runs or even if it ever moves. Thanks to the Freedom of Information Acts you can take home a copy of any ordinance you want paying a "reasonable" fee for the copies.

I'm with Jerry in that the general public has definately soured in their opinions of the "junk collectors" in recent years but there is plenty of good solid reasons for it and plenty of not so good reasons for it too. I'm sure Jerry would hate it if his neighbor decided they wanted to build a 50 foot high fence at his property line too so the sun never shined in his yard. Now the easiest way to prevent future issues would be for Jerry to put up a privacy fence at the maximum allowable height so a neighbor can't look in, or following my advice by turing his rat rod into a coi pond... that is provided he is permitted ponds in his zoning district.

It is no more of an invasion of freedom as what Arizona wants to do to combat illegal immigration.

[BoxerFanatic]

Originally Posted by benebob

I already explained in length who enforces this stuff and the general process involved in it boxer.

I wasn't speaking in generalities. I was rhetorically asking the original poster who, which exact person, by position title, or name, is the precise PERSON who would bring a side-arm and badge to his front door, and try to enforce what the bureaucrats are trying to do. Speaking with that PERSON before it gets to that occasion may give some sympathy, common sense, and understanding of the situation. And it might let that law enforcement officer know that they won't be dealing with a criminal if it ever comes to that point.

Under NO circumstances would I suggest that he give up or sell off his private property for the sake of a bureaucratic red-tape bull-crap mess. Caving in to that pressure is legitimizing it, when it may in fact NOT be legitimate, and the ordinance may in fact be illegal, by the laws of the county, state, and federal superior law. I happen to think it is unconstitutional to assert the sort of pressure that he is describing, on his own land. This isn't public domain.

Bureaucrats simply do their jobs that the elected officials hire them to do. It is as simple as that. Getting them on your side when you are in violation is like getting a cop to rip up a ticket once its written and in the system. It can't be done w/o costing someone their job.

What violation. HIS PROPERTY, HIS LAND. They need to PROVE their case, he does NOT.

If you're too ignorant of our governmental sytem to understand that the democractic bureaucracy isn't the issue, his neighbors and the town which voted in the elected officials, who at public meetings adopt all ordinances with public input then maybe it is you who should suck exhaust. Why not kill the firemen who tell you that you must put working smoke dectectors in your house before you sell it as it encroaches on your freedom!

Combating immoral legislation is not always possible before the fact. Once an ordnance is passed, it is VERY difficult to repeal. No bureaucrat or politician wants to back-pedal, or admit incorrect activity previously.

What about everyone, THE PLURALITY of the american public, who don't want nationalized health care, and it was passed immorally, illegally, and vindictively ANYWAY.

A moral standard out of an immoral government is impossible. Just as using republic type government is wholly incapable of ruling people who cannot morally rule themselves, for the most part.

My FATHER is a fire-chief, and every one of my extended family is either a professional or volunteer public servant. Don't lecture me, man.

This isn't common sense, like installing a 5$ smoke detector for your own basic safety. This is meddlesome government inserting itself into someone's pursuit of happiness, with dubious grounds, AT BEST.

Is it possible that it was incorrectly interpreted? Sure, but ordinances are usually black and white. For example, any unregistered or uninspected vehicle is illegal to park out side of a garage in my Township. If you want to know what a garage is, you look at the definition. If there is not one then you go to the dictionary to define a garage. So as long you maintain registration and inspection they can't touch it no matter what it looks like, if it runs or even if it ever moves. Thanks to the Freedom of Information Acts you can take home a copy of any ordinance you want paying a "reasonable" fee for the copies.

I have not suggested that the Subi-crosser make life difficult over something that he should do out of common sense.

But he wouldn't be posting what he is posting, if he weren't being hassled and put out by unrealistic demands of someone on HIS OWN PROPERTY.

Do YOU own your property, or do your neighbors own your property? If you don't own it, how can you have legal grounds to keep squatters out? Or thieves? Or anyone else who wants communal property rights to what you claim to own? Where is the line? What are the exceptions? Where does it end?

If THEY don't own it, what right to they have to dictate terms beyond the most very basic things that EVERYONE can agree on. Fiddly ordnances and home owners association regulations are patently unconstitutional, as they infringe on people's rights for political reasons. They are not moral, simply because they happened to get enough votes to pass.

I'm with Jerry in that the general public has definately soured in their opinions of the "junk collectors" in recent years but there is plenty of good solid reasons for it and plenty of not so good reasons for it too. I'm sure Jerry would hate it if his neighbor decided they wanted to build a 50 foot high fence at his property line too so the sun never shined in his yard. Now the easiest way to prevent future issues would be for Jerry to put up a privacy fence at the maximum allowable height so a neighbor can't look in, or following my advice by turing his rat rod into a coi pond... that is provided he is permitted ponds in his zoning district.

It is no more of an invasion of freedom as what Arizona wants to do to combat illegal immigration.

Illegal Immigration, you say? WHAT IS THE FIRST DAMN WORD THERE? ILLEGAL! That happens to be a constitutional MANDATE, to protect the integrity of the United States, which includes controlling the inflow of foreign nationals through our borders. If the FEDERAL government won't enforce the FEDERAL law, and Arizona, as a state under the federal constitution, decides that it MUST enforce the same law within it's own state borders... How is that an invasion of freedom? THAT IS A PROTECTION of freedom. Tell it to the people who have been killed or kidnapped on their own land in these southern states, as CRIMINAL drug cartel thugs run back and forth over the border. THAT IS A MATTER OF NATIONAL SECURITY, FAR MORE IMPORTANT THAN ANYTHING HAPPENING ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WORLD.

A man having a car on his property is not the same thing as ignoring an easement on your property, impinging on your neighbor's property.

It sounds, by Jerry's account, that it isn't a "beautification" issue, and that his neighbors have their own aesthetic issues to deal with.

It is fallacy to think that everything that happens to be passed into law is ethical or moral. I would suggest there may now be more that is immoral, or unethical, than is actually responsible legislation.

It is just as much of a fallacy to think that all people have good intentions, and just are doing their honest work. TAKE A LOOK AROUND.

Politicians, and Bureaucrats have less accountability than most, and tend to be at least as corrupt as anyone else.

Take a look at the US Congress, and the White House. Just on TAX issues alone, Rangel and Geithner's tax trouble... when RANGEL is chairman of ways and means, and Geithner is the head of the Treasury department. THOSE small examples alone are just the pointed tip of the huge corruption ice-berg, most of which the public never sees, below the water-line.

Take a look at the SEC that let the financial market fall down, and Madoff run off with tons of stolen money, while they watched porn on their computers in their offices.

I don't trust a single one of them, and if anyone were trying to infringe on my property rights, they had better be able to PROVE their case, and as to why they even have interest in my privately owned property.

There also exists a law against TRESPASSING. That includes bureaucrats.

[sowise]

Maryland is a tough state it is pretty much run by idiots elected by idiots. Honestly the only thing I could suggest would be malicious obedience. I don't know what all the issues are that they are saying but in the instance of say the rat rod. You have to be able to prove whatever your point is. Say for instance what the State defines and automobile as? It may be as simple as if it has an engine, wheels and can be driven then it fits that criteria so you remove those things and call it a lawn ornament. By definition who is right and who is wrong? If they call it junk because it is a work in progress get it insured under your home owners or renters insurance (not auto policy unless you get a specific policy for it not being driven due to maintenance, repair, or refurbishing). If it is because they say it is parked illegally due to lack of registration place it on an auto transport trailer that is registered. If they worry about hazardous fluids spend a little cash for proper waste barrels and containment pallets with spill kits near by. Save receipts for when you pay to turn in oil, batteries etc. If you follow within the confines of the law and they continue then you have a case for harassment, not only that but you can turn in every slight violation of your neighbors. Reporting violations of the city by their own city workers. Beyond that there isn't much that people from the internet can do to help. Most agree that they are excessive. As long as you don't have a home owners association then your property is your own, if you are in an association I would move since it is only yours as long as you conform to their standards. Other than that we can just be empathetic to your plight.


As for Benebob saying "It is no more of an invasion of freedom as what Arizona wants to do to combat illegal immigration."

I don't get who you feel bad for? Those who are here illegally or those who are here legally being asked to prove it?

If they are here illegally they have broken the law, they also should not and according to our constitution they do not have the rights of an american citizen. So how is that an invasion of their freedom? Sending them back to their country where they can legally apply for citizenship is generous in my opinion. As for those who feel slighted because they feel they are being stereo typed for having to prove their citizenship. Umm, I am 33 years old should I feel slighted when I buy beer and have to prove how old I am? How dare they not take me at my word? Beyond that they should be proud to be able to show they are legal, if the government would not allow illegals to get driver's licenses it would make it easier to prove. If it would prevent banks from giving loans, dealers from selling cars, and any other institution that allows an illegal to integrate into our country and receive all of the benefits and none of the unfavorables such as taxes, insurances (speaking auto ins not health care because we already pay for that). Basically I just don't get that whole point of view.

[benebob]

Originally Posted by BoxerFanatic

I wasn't speaking in generalities. I was rhetorically asking the original poster who, which exact person, by position title, or name, is the precise PERSON who would bring a side-arm and badge to his front door, and try to enforce what the bureaucrats are trying to do. Speaking with that PERSON before it gets to that occasion may give some sympathy, common sense, and understanding of the situation. And it might let that law enforcement officer know that they won't be dealing with a criminal if it ever comes to that point.

Its beyond that point from what I can gather from Jerry's posts. He has already gotten a Notice of Violation which by itself is a legal document which requires the property owner to take action to correct the violations, make application to appeal the decision or do nothing within the allotted time (by law it is a minimum of 30 days from the receipt of the notice). If it hasn't arrived by certified mail or hand delivered by a officer of the court then there is no proof of receipt but this will only provide you a limitted relief. Applications for appeal go to the appropriate board of appeal (i.e. Zoning Hearing Board, Building Code Board, etc. and will cost you to make application, and I highly recommend you retain council as anything you say can and will be used in court!!!). If you fix your violations then the notice is recinded.

My recommendation would be for Jerry to remove everything. Call the signer of the NOV over to reinspect then he is free to do what he wants until he gets the next NOV then do the same thing all within the allotted time frame. In essence he could go for years on this method as the NoV simply is stating the fact that on the date of issuance of the NOV that the violations listed for the property do in fact violate the stated section of the code or ordinance. It is only good for that single day.

Should he choose to do nothing, he will either not be able to sell his property until he makes all necessary corrections and is inspected or will receive a non-criminal summons to appear before the local justice who will set the fine and or jail time. At which point he can choose to fix it, appeal it or pay it and wait for the next NOV (whch will probably come daily as it costs a whole lot more to go through the process then you ever recover in fines!!!!) Oh and if he goes the summons route it is basically like admitting guilt as he did not appeal the decision in the allotted time so I wouldn't suggest it by any means.

It surely is his land but that does not give him the right to do ANYTHING he wants on it ANYWHERE in the country. Say he wanted to open up a car dealership there or even a working gas station. He would doubtfully be permitted to do that, nor would you be likely able to do that without first receiving the proper zoning alterations. There is nothing immoral of that it is simply there to protect the common intrests of the community. It is why you don't have a missle silo or cell phone tower in your neighbors back yard. Don't like it blame our founders as this is the type of governmental structures they favored.

As for health care, maybe these idiots who voted these idiots into office should've been a little smarter. Maybe its time to start testing people before they vote. Nothing illegal about the way it was passed. The methods have been used by BOTH parties, THOUSANDS of times in the past and it has stood up as perfectly legal by the system of checks and balances written into the Constitution. Like it or not, it is the truth, just ask Rush, he's the one who told me that one.

Start showing me actual case files rather than Glen Beck ramblings regarding Ordinances and you might have a leg to stand on but the reality is they are on very strong Constitutional ground. Oh right, it must have been the 200+ years of activist judges hearing all of those cases right? Just as building codes are there to protect the public safety (here in PA they finally passed sprinklers for every new home built starting this year as the reality is you may own the property today but you will not own it forever). In essense, building codes are nothing more than the minimum standards agreed to by all parties of the industry that are needed to build the minimum safe home in a given area. Nothing more nothing less. I find it humerous when contractors complain about the tough standards as I simply feel for their clients as their contractor is hopelessly underqualified to perform the work to begin with.

That's just it, they aren't enforcing anything in Arizona as it is an unconstitutional law as passed since no standards were provided for keeping the cops honest. Best place to put a DUI checkpoint is in front of the local bar, but it isn't Constitutional as it is profiling and entrapment. Just as telling the men in blue to card only those who look like they might be illegal rather than checking everyone for their i.d.

Politicians are only not accoutable because they aren't held accountable by their voters (lets go back to the testing before voting above). As for bureaucrats, they are accoutable to everyones whims. Why do you think that all my co-workers in our public works department are told to go back and take their mandated 15 minute break at their shop? Because the public complains when they see them sitting on the side of the road. Funny as it translates into usually 40 minutes or so 2x a day of wasted time to keep the public happy.

Remember, an ordinance is not passed without public input, in fact it takes at least 2 public hearings BEFORE it can be passed with OPEN votes taken before the meeting. Pretty moral to me, if you don't like it and the public doesn't like it they speak with their votes and elect someone hell bent on repealing said ordinance. If you run on that platform you better get the job done, and again the only "difficulty" to repeal it is those 2 public hearing that you must endure before repealing it.

I've never had to step on a single persons or businesses property to find their violations and again, can you get a cop on trustpassing charges? Didn't think so, nor can you get another sworn officer on trustpassing charges. Again, if you don't like it don't elect idiots to office who pass the oridiances! Easy enough right?

[benebob]

Originally Posted by sowise

As for Benebob saying "It is no more of an invasion of freedom as what Arizona wants to do to combat illegal immigration."

or those who are here legally being asked to prove it?

Eactly this, unless you have broken the law or there is reasonable susp. there is no legal precident requiring that you provide your papers on demand by a police officer. They can request all they want but you can simply say you can have it when you show what I law I have broken. Only times of Emergency rule (i.e. marshall law) is this changed. As for buying beer, that is a choice you make and no you do not have to provide it there. You just don't get your beer. Just as during a sting where they raid a bar looikng for underage drinkers. Legally you do not need to provide i.d. here either.

Don't like illegal immigrants? As I've said before, don't buy apples, don't buy American made clothing, don't buy processed meats, etc.. and you'll start taking a dent out of it. They come here because of work and there are plenty of American citizens here willing to pay them to do the work. These are the criminals IMO and they should be the ones going to jail. Problem is, no one wants to tell farmer Jim who already lives on gov't handouts that he has to sell his apple for 2x the price of a bag of chips. I don't understand why everyone wants to come here anyways, we're shipping all our jobs to their home countries anyways right! That's why Ford turned a 2.1 billion dollar profit for the 1st quarter!

[subi-crosser]

Originally Posted by BoxerFanatic

I wasn't speaking in generalities. I was rhetorically asking the original poster who, which exact person, by position title, or name, is the precise PERSON who would bring a side-arm and badge to his front door, and try to enforce what the bureaucrats are trying to do. Speaking with that PERSON before it gets to that occasion may give some sympathy, common sense, and understanding of the situation. And it might let that law enforcement officer know that they won't be dealing with a criminal if it ever comes to that point.

Under NO circumstances would I suggest that he give up or sell off his private property for the sake of a bureaucratic red-tape bull-crap mess. Caving in to that pressure is legitimizing it, when it may in fact NOT be legitimate, and the ordinance may in fact be illegal, by the laws of the county, state, and federal superior law. I happen to think it is unconstitutional to assert the sort of pressure that he is describing, on his own land. This isn't public domain.



What violation. HIS PROPERTY, HIS LAND. They need to PROVE their case, he does NOT.



Combating immoral legislation is not always possible before the fact. Once an ordnance is passed, it is VERY difficult to repeal. No bureaucrat or politician wants to back-pedal, or admit incorrect activity previously.

What about everyone, THE PLURALITY of the american public, who don't want nationalized health care, and it was passed immorally, illegally, and vindictively ANYWAY.

A moral standard out of an immoral government is impossible. Just as using republic type government is wholly incapable of ruling people who cannot morally rule themselves, for the most part.

My FATHER is a fire-chief, and every one of my extended family is either a professional or volunteer public servant. Don't lecture me, man.

This isn't common sense, like installing a 5$ smoke detector for your own basic safety. This is meddlesome government inserting itself into someone's pursuit of happiness, with dubious grounds, AT BEST.



I have not suggested that the Subi-crosser make life difficult over something that he should do out of common sense.

But he wouldn't be posting what he is posting, if he weren't being hassled and put out by unrealistic demands of someone on HIS OWN PROPERTY.

Do YOU own your property, or do your neighbors own your property? If you don't own it, how can you have legal grounds to keep squatters out? Or thieves? Or anyone else who wants communal property rights to what you claim to own? Where is the line? What are the exceptions? Where does it end?

If THEY don't own it, what right to they have to dictate terms beyond the most very basic things that EVERYONE can agree on. Fiddly ordnances and home owners association regulations are patently unconstitutional, as they infringe on people's rights for political reasons. They are not moral, simply because they happened to get enough votes to pass.



Illegal Immigration, you say? WHAT IS THE FIRST DAMN WORD THERE? ILLEGAL! That happens to be a constitutional MANDATE, to protect the integrity of the United States, which includes controlling the inflow of foreign nationals through our borders. If the FEDERAL government won't enforce the FEDERAL law, and Arizona, as a state under the federal constitution, decides that it MUST enforce the same law within it's own state borders... How is that an invasion of freedom? THAT IS A PROTECTION of freedom. Tell it to the people who have been killed or kidnapped on their own land in these southern states, as CRIMINAL drug cartel thugs run back and forth over the border. THAT IS A MATTER OF NATIONAL SECURITY, FAR MORE IMPORTANT THAN ANYTHING HAPPENING ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WORLD.

A man having a car on his property is not the same thing as ignoring an easement on your property, impinging on your neighbor's property.

It sounds, by Jerry's account, that it isn't a "beautification" issue, and that his neighbors have their own aesthetic issues to deal with.

It is fallacy to think that everything that happens to be passed into law is ethical or moral. I would suggest there may now be more that is immoral, or unethical, than is actually responsible legislation.

It is just as much of a fallacy to think that all people have good intentions, and just are doing their honest work. TAKE A LOOK AROUND.

Politicians, and Bureaucrats have less accountability than most, and tend to be at least as corrupt as anyone else.

Take a look at the US Congress, and the White House. Just on TAX issues alone, Rangel and Geithner's tax trouble... when RANGEL is chairman of ways and means, and Geithner is the head of the Treasury department. THOSE small examples alone are just the pointed tip of the huge corruption ice-berg, most of which the public never sees, below the water-line.

Take a look at the SEC that let the financial market fall down, and Madoff run off with tons of stolen money, while they watched porn on their computers in their offices.

I don't trust a single one of them, and if anyone were trying to infringe on my property rights, they had better be able to PROVE their case, and as to why they even have interest in my privately owned property.

There also exists a law against TRESPASSING. That includes bureaucrats.

I have been 'singled out' as the TEST case!
I have a 'moral obligation' to NOT fold!
If I fold, no race car in a carport will be safe!
The Mustang has MORE 'value' than 50% of the HOUSES in this 'hood'!
The 'complaintant' got the FIRST letter because her husband bought a POS Corvair last fall and tagged it, let it sit on a city street all winter with the drivers door hanging open and flat tires! He also had an old Box truck in the back yard with flats and trash packed all around it.
They took their 'waste' oil and poured it on the weeds instead of cutting them and have 4 feet of trash thrown between the garage and fence.

They have dragged 14 cars here and let them DECAY to the point that they call the junk man to haul them away. I still drive the 47 that I drove here 23 years ago, and I'm sure that that is the reason she 'complained'.

She is SO JEALOUS!! I have dragged bare frames here and drove them away as finished cars!
I do NOT make noise before 8:30 am, nor after 8:00 Pm.
I don't spray paint here, do not start open headers unless a train is going by.

There is a machine shop with a Dyno across the STREET! They build racing engines.
I fail to see how what goes on here is a 'problem'.

[subi-crosser]

Originally Posted by benebob

Eactly this, unless you have broken the law or there is reasonable susp. there is no legal precident requiring that you provide your papers on demand by a police officer. They can request all they want but you can simply say you can have it when you show what I law I have broken. Only times of Emergency rule (i.e. marshall law) is this changed. As for buying beer, that is a choice you make and no you do not have to provide it there. You just don't get your beer. Just as during a sting where they raid a bar looikng for underage drinkers. Legally you do not need to provide i.d. here either.

Don't like illegal immigrants? As I've said before, don't buy apples, don't buy American made clothing, don't buy processed meats, etc.. and you'll start taking a dent out of it. They come here because of work and there are plenty of American citizens here willing to pay them to do the work. These are the criminals IMO and they should be the ones going to jail. Problem is, no one wants to tell farmer Jim who already lives on gov't handouts that he has to sell his apple for 2x the price of a bag of chips. I don't understand why everyone wants to come here anyways, we're shipping all our jobs to their home countries anyways right! That's why Ford turned a 2.1 billion dollar profit for the 1st quarter!

An 'Ill-Eagle' is a sick bird. Calling an Un-documented immigrant anything but a CRIMINAL/ invader is like calling a drug pusher an 'Un-licenced Pharmaisit'.

IF I get stopped for a light out on my car and the cop sees my CDL, I HAVE to produce my Medical Examiners certificate or face a fine. Does not matter if I am driving a Commercial vehicle or not, I MUST be able to produce that document...

If someone gets stopped and cannot produce a document that says they can be here, THROW them OUT! I have to carry MY 'papers'!
I was BORN here!

[dbarnblatt]

Originally Posted by subi-crosser

IF I get stopped for a light out on my car and the cop sees my CDL, I HAVE to produce my Medical Examiners certificate or face a fine. Does not matter if I am driving a Commercial vehicle or not, I MUST be able to produce that document...

If someone gets stopped and cannot produce a document that says they can be here, THROW them OUT! I have to carry MY 'papers'!
I was BORN here!

But your "papers" are used to allow you to drive on the roads of your state... by choice. And you should be willing to show these to an officer, because it is a privilege and a choice you have made. And by making this choice you agree to abide by certain rules that are far more stringent than the laws citizens abide by that do not drive.

Would YOU freely provide your US Passport on demand to an officer because he alone "thought" you "might" be a national within the boarders of the US illegally... and you have done nothing wrong?

[sowise]

Originally Posted by dbarnblatt

But your "papers" are used to allow you to drive on the roads of your state... by choice. And you should be willing to show these to an officer, because it is a privilege and a choice you have made. And by making this choice you agree to abide by certain rules that are far more stringent than the laws citizens abide by that do not drive.

Would YOU freely provide your US Passport on demand to an officer because he alone "thought" you "might" be a national within the boarders of the US illegally... and you have done nothing wrong?

If they said they were going to start verifying passports within this country I would be happy to verify it. Sure may get annoying at times but so is getting carded when I buy beer or smokes or go to a bar. If they didn't let illegals get a driver's license in some states it would be the end all check. If you are legal and don't have a license then a state ID which I don't know how you can live without an ID anyway since you need it to cash checks etc. Everytime I have been to another country I they have strict laws as to what I can do as a visitor. I have to carry my passport or I break their laws. In one country I had to check in with law enforcement every 10 days over the 7 months I was there. They had to be informed if I was leaving the area I was staying and they had to have a legitimate address. This was basically a third world country too. We don't seem to have any sort of tracking for visitors. Alot of our illegals are due to expired visa's work or school or green card expirees. The base problems are we make it too easy for them to integrate into our society as americans. I am also a fan of letting those who plan to immigrate serve in the military as trade for their citizenship as long as they speak english well enough and or are willing to learn it. So yeh no problem I don't care if they want me to verify my citizenship. Why would anyone have a problem with that unless they were illegal or knew people who were?

[benebob]

Originally Posted by sowise

If they said they were going to start verifying passports within this country I would be happy to verify it. Sure may get annoying at times but so is getting carded when I buy beer or smokes or go to a bar. If they didn't let illegals get a driver's license in some states it would be the end all check. If you are legal and don't have a license then a state ID which I don't know how you can live without an ID anyway since you need it to cash checks etc. Everytime I have been to another country I they have strict laws as to what I can do as a visitor. I have to carry my passport or I break their laws. In one country I had to check in with law enforcement every 10 days over the 7 months I was there. They had to be informed if I was leaving the area I was staying and they had to have a legitimate address. This was basically a third world country too. We don't seem to have any sort of tracking for visitors. Alot of our illegals are due to expired visa's work or school or green card expirees. The base problems are we make it too easy for them to integrate into our society as americans. I am also a fan of letting those who plan to immigrate serve in the military as trade for their citizenship as long as they speak english well enough and or are willing to learn it. So yeh no problem I don't care if they want me to verify my citizenship. Why would anyone have a problem with that unless they were illegal or knew people who were?

Not so fast, ever here of them thar Amish? The don't have drivers licenses and their legal i.d. has no picture on it.

As for your beer and smokes, YOU choose to buy them. The Arizona law is poorly written and WILL NOT stand up in court. Lets say you're having a picnic with your family. The law says that an officer can ask for your id because you're playing that sissy unamerican football. That's their reasonable suspicion. No red blooded American would play soccer right?

I believe in the Constitution, just because someone passes a crappy law doesn't give them the right to ask for my id without cause. That is unamerican, and Arizona should shove its unamerican law right back where it belongs, up McCain's wife's A$$, honestly, I believe he was behind this illegal law just to show the tea baggers that he's not so bad and deserves another 6 years... Oh and before you get offended by my tea bagger comment you should look at all of my posts as I have no affection (just like our founding fathers had no affection for organized political parties and movements). They simply don't belong in a free society.