Christmas Dash Lights, but no Electrical Problem

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by TexasSwift

Trevor,
Sorry for the confusion about the DC readings (post 26). I did read DC, just not above the battery voltage. I was getting no charging level of DC only AC.

Also for KWren, I got an alternator today and am going to "change the danged thing" tonight.

Keith

Many thanks Keith,

Your diligence has provided some very worthwhile information.

Trevor.

[oab_au]

Originally Posted by Trevor

The reason for the arrangement is obvious. The circuitry is arranged in this way in order that several lamps, which are activated via devices which are open to ground when the engine is not running, are included in the lamp test function and are illuminated at ignition turn on. This is achieved via the diodes and the alternator fault circuit, which is closed to ground, when the alternator is at rest. Any alternator fault indication will be confined to the appropriate indicator lamp.

Not so. If the alternator has a fault, all the diode-linked lights will come on, to give the ‘Christmas tree effect’. When all these lights come on, it is because the regulator is signally the fault to the Charge light, and not because some other fault is causing all the lights to come on.

____________________

Originally Posted by Trevor

"I think that there is a system of ways that the regulator brings these lights on, to signal the type of trouble. On at idle, going off when you rev it. Off at idle, going on when you rev it, and flashing them. I also think that the flashing is the ‘Excessive output’ warning."
These thoughts are not based on logic or fact, written, diagrammatic or otherwise.

Well I was talking to Tom, as he has had the over-voltage problem, and has had cases of, over-voltage/blown fusible link/burnt relays and modules. I think he may understand what I am getting at.

_________________________

Originally Posted by Trevor

If there are no/zero/0 volts there can not be current flowing in a circuit, i.e. 0 amps = zero volts. The calculation resolving 1390 volts is hardly accurate.

No you did not comprehend what I said. I did not say ”there was zero volts”, I said that ”when the fusible link blows, the amperage falls to zero”. The generated alternator energy is left in the “potential difference” form, equal to the generated wattage at the time.
As there are circuits still connected to this energy source, their resistance will govern the current that will flow, due to this potential. If the circuits can flow 10 amps, they will have 139 volts across them.

Harvey.

[kwren]

Originally Posted by Trevor

Many thanks Keith,

Your diligence has provided some very worthwhile information.

Trevor.

..........................

Take care...
Keith

[Trevor]

[QUOTE=oab_au;594599][QUOTE=Trevor;594507 Harvey.[/QUOTE]

Trevor - The reason for the arrangement is obvious. The circuitry is arranged in this way in order that several lamps, which are activated via devices which are open to ground when the engine is not running, are included in the lamp test function and are illuminated at ignition turn on. This is achieved via the diodes and the alternator fault circuit, which is closed to ground, when the alternator is at rest. Any alternator fault indication will be confined to the appropriate indicator lamp,

Harvey - Not so. If the alternator has a fault, all the diode-linked lights will come on, to give the ‘Christmas tree effect’. When all these lights come on, it is because the regulator is signally the fault to the Charge light, and not because some other fault is causing all the lights to come on.

Trevor - YES IT IS SO. When the regulator grounds the signal circuit, the charge light comes on, circuits to the three associated lamps are blocked by the three diodes. ONLY the charge light will become illuminated. The three diodes are there for the express purpose of preventing such a sneak circuit, while providing a path for the test function.

This is kindergarten stuff within my area of expertise. I am fed up having to waste time and effort, arguing with one who demonstrates that he has not a clue regarding electrical/electronic circuitry or components. (I presume that I am allowed to state an exact fact, without the risk of again being banned or stood in a corner. )

There has been established, ample and absolute evidence, backing up what actually happens. When AC is present, a different set of blocking diodes become ineffective through passing the available negative current and the associated lights come on. QED. It will next be claimed that all the moving coil AC meters, as used by those members willing to experiment and confirm, have been registering DC. --**>>##!!

(At this point I have had to untangle errors in the thread under reply.)

Harvey (NOT Trevor!) - I think that there is a system of ways that the regulator brings these lights on, to signal the type of trouble. On at idle, going off when you rev it. Off at idle, going on when you rev it, and flashing them. I also think that the flashing is the ‘Excessive output’ warning.

Trevor ( Quoted from an earlier post) - These thoughts are not based on logic or fact, written, diagrammatic or otherwise.
Trevor now, hereby reiterates this statement.

Harvey - Well I was talking to Tom, as he has had the over-voltage problem, and has had cases of, over-voltage/blown fusible link/burnt relays and modules. I think he may understand what I am getting at.

Trevor - Tom is a wise man who long ago advised me, that he has no intention of wasting time posting within pointless arguments. He is happy to leave judgement on right and wrong in the hands of those members, who persevere in reading this type of mess.

I would be content to do the same, except that I am not playing on a level field, with some of a political front, not able to recognise bull dung from decent soil, waiting on the sidelines with a whistle. What is more, humour in the form of a fairy streaker has now been banned from the playing field, in spite of several spectators previously recording enjoyment. (This is a clear statement of fact. Bait it is not. A reply or reaction is not encouraged and remains the choice of the reader.)

Trevor - If there are no/zero/0 volts there can not be current flowing in a circuit, i.e. 0 amps = zero volts. The calculation resolving 1390 volts is hardly accurate. (By intent only a selected part of the text was quoted.)

Harvey - No you did not comprehend what I said. I did not say ”there was zero volts”, I said that ”when the fusible link blows, the amperage falls to zero”. The generated alternator energy is left in the “potential difference” form, equal to the generated wattage at the time.

I say again, if there are zero amps ("the amperage falls to zero”) there are zero (no) volts. There is no "at the time" or time element involved.
The supply circuit remains connected as does a set of secondary loads, the total resistance of these will govern the current that will flow. I agree that If these circuits can flow 10 amps, they will have 139 volts across them.

I comprehend exactly what you stated/said earlier in writing, as well as your now revised explanation.

If the amps fall to zero, so must the voltage. Without something to do the pressing, you can not have pressure. The amperage/current does not fall to zero. The current does not cease. There is no off time involved. The total current becomes suddenly transferred to another connected circuit, (as you have conceded) without interruption, but a voltage spike is likely on the alternative circuit because of a possible difference, in respect of load resistance suddenly occurring.

Stored energy is not set loose as a result of a supply to inductor being interrupted, as with a common form of spike. An existing route for available energy is present. The opening of the fusible link does not comprise an interruption of a load, only an alteration of the load.

I again agree that in the event that the circuits “can flow 10 amps”, the resistance of the combined load will dictate the voltage which is present. However as the resistance is unknown, the voltage also remains unknown.

There is no way a figure can be drawn from the air and be transferred into volts, as you have stated using an impossible computation, i.e. “1390 watts divided by 0”. You are using an impossible figure, in order to establish a second criteria supporting an illogical theory. The mugwump bird is in full flight.

Coincidentally, once again we have a birds nest of a thread, tangled with errors. The result is that much valuable data, has been buried, and for practical purposes become next to useless.

[RSVX]

This is an April Fools joke, right?

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by RSVX

This is an April Fools joke, right?

Precedent confirms that the above post constitutes baiting, there being no attempt towards including humorous content.

The post shows that current authority has no technical knowledge or ability and lacks the acumen required to make simple judgements.

Correct barriers, personal and official are not in place.

Power is exercised and enjoyed, but responsibly is shunned.

Etiquette has no place here.

A fact that I have officials as a political enemy is confirmed.

The principal April fool has been correctly identified.

[Alcyone]

hahaha, i love this guy. such a robot

[Trevor]

There are those who should in case of fire, check anus regularly and at very short intervals.

[RSVX]

Originally Posted by Trevor

Precedent confirms that the above post constitutes baiting, there being no attempt towards including humorous content.

The post shows that current authority has no technical knowledge or ability and lacks the acumen required to make simple judgements.

Correct barriers, personal and official are not in place.

Power is exercised and enjoyed, but responsibly is shunned.

Etiquette has no place here.

A fact that I have officials as a political enemy is confirmed.

The principal April fool has been correctly identified.

In all honesty, I wish everyone here could just get along.

My post was in jest, if you so choose to see it differently, I have no control over that and thus will lose no sleep over your comments.

I enjoy this place much more when I log in and the Admin section is empty. In fact I had no knowledge of this discussion until someone brought to the Admin forum. So much for bias...

I posted my comment as I have grown tired of the name calling between you two and wish it would end.

By all means debate who is right or wrong, just stop the name calling, that is all we have ever asked.

With all that, have a nice day. ALL of you.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by RSVX

In all honesty, I wish everyone here could just get along.

My post was in jest, if you so choose to see it differently, I have no control over that and thus will lose no sleep over your comments.

I enjoy this place much more when I log in and the Admin section is empty. In fact I had no knowledge of this discussion until someone brought to the Admin forum. So much for bias...

I posted my comment as I have grown tired of the name calling between you two and wish it would end.

By all means debate who is right or wrong, just stop the name calling, that is all we have ever asked.

With all that, have a nice day. ALL of you.

You say that "I posted my comment as I have grown tired of the name calling between you two and wish it would end."

There has been no name calling. By intent names have not been mentioned by me. My posts are simply direct corrections of incorrect data. This is, as in the past, necessary in the interests of members.

There is no indication that your, "wish everyone here could just get along." has in any way been denied. Once again you confirm bias.

The comment, "This is an April Fools joke, right?" - with no smiley
in sight, posted as an individual reply to a serious well meaning technical post, indicates that your judgement was faulty, confirming my previous comments.

Sincerely, I too wish everyone here could just get along.

[oab_au]

The “Christmas tree lights” are well known to be a sign that the alternator is faulty.The reason that all these lights come on has not made that fact obverse. The reason is clear when you look at the way these lights are connected together.

Diodes are connected from the Charge Light, to the Stop Light Warning Light, Steering Warning Light, and Parking Brake Light. As all these Diodes are forward biased under this condition, all these lights will come on wherever the regulator warning transistor, grounds the Charge light.
This is from the 95 Aust manual.



It is quite obverse that the lights were meant to be connected like this. Maybe because the steering and the brakes may be affected if the alt stopped changing and the battery was low? Maybe they saw that the system could destroy things if the alt goes out of control, and decided to light all the red lights.

I think we can now recognise the Christmas Tree Lights to be just the alternator signaling, a alternator/regulator fault.

Harvey.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by oab_au

The “Christmas tree lights” .

I sincerely apologise to all, for my statement that the diodes will block four warning lights from illuminating if a signal is received from the alternator. This was indeed an embarrassing clanger. More so, as other readers may have been mislead.

The number associated errors that have had to be corrected, together with the overall tangle resulting in confusing complexity within this thread, is a just cause for brain fatigue. Even so, this problem does not represent a valid excuse.

I cannot agree with the statement - “I think we can now recognise the Christmas Tree Lights to be just the alternator signalling, a alternator/regulator fault.” Four lights hardly constitutes a Christmas tree effect, taking into account the terminology so often posted. e.g. The queries within this thread:-

#1 Lockleaf - My dash lights are ALL coming on at once, sometimes staying on and other times only flickering.

#11 TexasSwift/Keith. - Just today ALL of my dash warning lights came on.

Here again confusion reigns, as the exact lights have never been reported.

[TomsSVX]

Originally Posted by Trevor

I sincerely apologise to all, for my statement that the diodes will block four warning lights from illuminating if a signal is received from the alternator. This was indeed an embarrassing clanger. More so, as other readers may have been mislead.

The number associated errors that have had to be corrected, together with the overall tangle resulting in confusing complexity within this thread, is a just cause for brain fatigue. Even so, this problem does not represent a valid excuse.

I cannot agree with the statement - “I think we can now recognise the Christmas Tree Lights to be just the alternator signalling, a alternator/regulator fault.” Four lights hardly constitutes a Christmas tree effect, taking into account the terminology so often posted. e.g. The queries within this thread:-

#1 Lockleaf - My dash lights are ALL coming on at once, sometimes staying on and other times only flickering.

#11 TexasSwift/Keith. - Just today ALL of my dash warning lights came on.

Here again confusion reigns, as the exact lights have never been reported.

When the lights are lit dimly and tend to flicker it is indicative of a bad alternator, meaning a poorly charging alternator. When they are on full blast all the time, it is indicative of an alternator regulator failure in which the system is over run with excessive amperage. Now there will always be a few instances in which this diagnosis may not be exactly correct, but for the most part, this is what I have seen.

Tom

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by TomsSVX

When the lights are lit dimly and tend to flicker it is indicative of a bad alternator, meaning a poorly charging alternator. When they are on full blast all the time, it is indicative of an alternator regulator failure in which the system is over run with excessive amperage. Now there will always be a few instances in which this diagnosis may not be exactly correct, but for the most part, this is what I have seen.

Tom

Greetings Tom,

A poorly charging alternator can be one producing a high AC content due to a faulty rectifier. Exactly which lights have illuminated in your experience. Without this definite information circuit tracing is impossible. In both cases the normal circuitry must be being bridged is some way, depending on which lights are involved.

Thanks, Trevor.

[TomsSVX]

Off the cuff I could not tell you... It has been a while since I have dealt with it.

Tom