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  #31  
Old 06-05-2004, 02:25 PM
deruvian
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I also hate to interrupt, but I just thought of something interesting. And if I don't post it now, I'll forget.

Just a scenario: One fills the SVX with 87, but forgets to change the code on the stage 1 over to the 87 version. Bad deal, or would the car simply run a lot richer than normal?
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  #32  
Old 06-05-2004, 03:12 PM
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I concede that it is possible that a previous tank of low-grade fuel may have already caused the ECU to learn to retard the timing, but I contend that my performance before was excellent, and continues to be so afterwards. I would conclude that programming which is as you suggest is so stubborn to unlearn a retarded map, is lousy programming. I think Subaru's engineers are better than that.

A few weekends at the drag strip may be in order.
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  #33  
Old 06-05-2004, 04:31 PM
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Re: We interrupt this discussion....

Quote:
Originally posted by RojoRocket
Michael, Any idea the going rate at the Dealer to do this "select monitor brain-wipe"? As the third owner of the car I wonder at this point what I may be missing.
Apologies for slipping into the middle of your technical vs "time to the red mailbox" debate with such a thing as a $$ question, but inquiring minds, and all that.

Glenn

lol, I have no Idea Glenn. All my memory clears were done while tuning code on the dyno. It only takes about 30 seconds. Of course since it's an svx you might have to show them where the plug is, lol. I bet it will vary greatly on how cool your dealership is. Some might let the tech do it as side work and you just slip him a 20. Others might charge you a big set "computer diagnostic fee" even though it only takes 30 seconds. If I can say so without seeming too salesmanly like the big improvement to be had is from getting the stage 1 chip. If you get the stage 1 then clear your ecu's memory you'll be loving life. I expect there will be some very satisfied customers coming on the forums to take over talking about how great it is soon.
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  #34  
Old 06-05-2004, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by deruvian
I also hate to interrupt, but I just thought of something interesting. And if I don't post it now, I'll forget.

Just a scenario: One fills the SVX with 87, but forgets to change the code on the stage 1 over to the 87 version. Bad deal, or would the car simply run a lot richer than normal?
How to put this...hmm....not nearly as bad as running 87 on the factory code....probably not as bad as running 93 on the factory code...maybe not nearly as bad as running 93 on the factory code....very likely not nearly as bad as running 91 on the factory code.....but still should be avoided. The system by which the ecu determines that an ignition timing issue is serious enough to go into the hard to remove learned section is complex. It's hard to say how badly you have to screw up for how long before a correction is moved over from a volatile memory location, to a memory location retained when the car is turned off, to a memory location that is retained even without battery power. It's also hard to predict how hard it would be to remove a particular learned correction because many things can affect that.

In the end what it comes down to is things that are hard to remove were hard to learn to begin with.

Just to give you some idea how things can get intertwined and complex. Let's talk about where these adjustments that may get learned come from. The ecu uses the main maps to calculate base injector pulse width and ignition timing according to load and rpm. It then sequentially applies many adjustments to those base #'s according to many other #'s. Some of those #'s are current measurements, some of them are caculated from a # of current measurements, some of them are selected from tables according to current measurements, some of them are calculated from past learning, etc etc. And it's all done so that in some conditions the importance of some #'s is greater and in other conditions the importance of other #'s is greater.
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  #35  
Old 06-05-2004, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by UberRoo
I concede that it is possible that a previous tank of low-grade fuel may have already caused the ECU to learn to retard the timing, but I contend that my performance before was excellent, and continues to be so afterwards. I would conclude that programming which is as you suggest is so stubborn to unlearn a retarded map, is lousy programming. I think Subaru's engineers are better than that.

A few weekends at the drag strip may be in order.
Ha! a concession, I win. just kididng. Not everything is so stubborn to unlearn, only what was deemed to be serious and enduring enough to go into the stubborn section. And according to a Subaru TSB 87 octane on the factory code can create such learning.
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  #36  
Old 06-05-2004, 05:45 PM
deruvian
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Quote:
Originally posted by longassname


How to put this...hmm....not nearly as bad as running 87 on the factory code....probably not as bad as running 93 on the factory code...maybe not nearly as bad as running 93 on the factory code....very likely not nearly as bad as running 91 on the factory code.....but still should be avoided. The system by which the ecu determines that an ignition timing issue is serious enough to go into the hard to remove learned section is complex. It's hard to say how badly you have to screw up for how long before a correction is moved over from a volatile memory location, to a memory location retained when the car is turned off, to a memory location that is retained even without battery power. It's also hard to predict how hard it would be to remove a particular learned correction because many things can affect that.

In the end what it comes down to is things that are hard to remove were hard to learn to begin with.

Just to give you some idea how things can get intertwined and complex. Let's talk about where these adjustments that may get learned come from. The ecu uses the main maps to calculate base injector pulse width and ignition timing according to load and rpm. It then sequentially applies many adjustments to those base #'s according to many other #'s. Some of those #'s are current measurements, some of them are caculated from a # of current measurements, some of them are selected from tables according to current measurements, some of them are calculated from past learning, etc etc. And it's all done so that in some conditions the importance of some #'s is greater and in other conditions the importance of other #'s is greater.
Wooops... I meant to ask that, too. I just kinda got my two questions swapped somehow. Guess I got my numbers all messed up! lol.

Anyway, what if someone had left the 87 code "switched" on, but filled their tank with premium?

Your response wasn't a waste, though. Like I said, that was my next question.
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  #37  
Old 06-05-2004, 09:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by deruvian


Wooops... I meant to ask that, too. I just kinda got my two questions swapped somehow. Guess I got my numbers all messed up! lol.

Anyway, what if someone had left the 87 code "switched" on, but filled their tank with premium?

Your response wasn't a waste, though. Like I said, that was my next question.
I don't expect they would have any problems. Just wouldn't be getting as much power under full throttle.
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  #38  
Old 06-05-2004, 11:27 PM
RojoRocket RojoRocket is offline
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Michael, OK, You've got my attention. Tell me more about ECUtune Stage1. More "Inquiring minds etc" LOL!!

OOPS! Looks like I'm ineligible anyway with my '93.

Glenn
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Last edited by RojoRocket; 06-05-2004 at 11:32 PM.
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  #39  
Old 06-06-2004, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by RojoRocket
Michael, OK, You've got my attention. Tell me more about ECUtune Stage1. More "Inquiring minds etc" LOL!!

OOPS! Looks like I'm ineligible anyway with my '93.

Glenn
you are very eligable. any obdI ecu(92-95) is fully compatible. click HERE for information on the ECU upgrade(how/why/where to order)
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  #40  
Old 06-06-2004, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by RojoRocket
Michael, OK, You've got my attention. Tell me more about ECUtune Stage1. More "Inquiring minds etc" LOL!!

OOPS! Looks like I'm ineligible anyway with my '93.

Glenn
No you aren't. Chip will definitely work on any obdI svx. obdI computers were used through late 95. The only cars the chip isn't definitely compatible with are 96 and 97 model years which have obdII computers. We haven't determined if the chip will work in a 96 or 97 yet but know that if it is used in a 96 or 97 the car will loose the obdII functions. Landshark started a signup for 96 & 97 owners and when there are enough we'll pull the code from an obdII computer and move our changes over to it so that we have both an obdI and obdII version.

You my friend can have a stage 1 svx next week and be going faster on 87 octane than you are on 93. There's a thread here where I shared the details of the development process as it was happening. I think it was 37 pages long last time I checked. A few people have mentioned going back and reading it when they found out about it. They seemed to think it was worth reading after they had. For the much shorter version look at the info provided on our website. http://www.ecutune.com/subaru_svx.htm
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  #41  
Old 06-06-2004, 09:18 AM
RojoRocket RojoRocket is offline
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Thanks for clearing up that issue Michael. You've definitely got me thinking. A couple of further questions though.
With the Stage1 install, does one still need to go through the memory clearing process? And, being a Cali car, and assuming the engine internals/cats etc to be up to snuff, is there any history of your customers having problems, with no other engine mods, gettting by our smog nazis? I assume also, as an unverified PayPal user, that you would accept MO or certified check in payment?

Thanks to both you and Phast for the excellent information!
Glenn
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  #42  
Old 06-06-2004, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by RojoRocket
Thanks for clearing up that issue Michael. You've definitely got me thinking. A couple of further questions though.
With the Stage1 install, does one still need to go through the memory clearing process? And, being a Cali car, and assuming the engine internals/cats etc to be up to snuff, is there any history of your customers having problems, with no other engine mods, gettting by our smog nazis? I assume also, as an unverified PayPal user, that you would accept MO or certified check in payment?

Thanks to both you and Phast for the excellent information!
Glenn
Why aren't you verified? All you have to do is let them deposit a few cents in your account then tell them how much the deposit was to verify it's your account and put a credit card on the account with the same address as your shipping address.

We just started accepting orders a few days ago. The emissions question is not yet verified. Isn't likely to be a problem though. Emissions test standards are nothing compared to what the manufacturer must pass when they make the car. Litterally not 1/100th as hard. If it turns out to be a problem we will offer chips with the factory code to swap in for the tests for a small fee just like when we release updated versions in the future.
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  #43  
Old 06-06-2004, 10:20 AM
RojoRocket RojoRocket is offline
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Just couldn't be bothered I guess. No reason not to.
Thanks for the quick reply, and I think I'll read through that longassthread this PM when I have more time. The chip sounds like a great way to optimize the performance already "lurking" in our cars without going too exotic or complicated, and in the face of these gas prices the added 87 octane code sounds like a genuine bonus! Far as outsmarting the smog nazis, I'm all for that as well.
Would the tactic of swapping the chips back in have to be "relearned" by the car? Looks like I'll be in touch with ECUtune real soon!

Glenn
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1993 25th Anniversary Edition #63 of 301. R.I.P. Rojo 7/24/2008 She saved my life!
1997 Ebony Mica Pearl LSI. BLACKBERRY
1998 5-Spd Legacy GT Wagon in Glacier White: NUBURU
2005 Cadillac STS in Sandstorm Metallic: STORMY

Veteran and farthest traveler of 1st SoCal2MuseumsMeet2010.

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  #44  
Old 06-09-2004, 08:09 AM
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Ok, I calculated my mileage on the 87 octane code at my last two fill ups which were for mostly highway driving with a lot of rain and a little bad traffic and around town driving thrown in. 24.8 mpg
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