Christmas Dash Lights, but no Electrical Problem

[oab_au]

Originally Posted by TomsSVX

+1 to the short. I had dealt with the same problem. Regulator gave up the ghost and within 5 mins of driving fried over half a dozen modules.
Tom

Tom this bit is starting to make sense. The regulator in the alt has a ‘Diagnostic & Warning Circuit’ that operates the ‘Change Light’ to warn of problems. For some unknown reason (maybe they just wanted them to be noticed) they have used a few diodes to have the ‘Stop light check’, Parking brake light’, ‘Charge light’, and the ‘’Steering Warning light’ all coming on.
The book says that the Diagnostic system will warn of these problems;
No voltage generated.
Excessive output.
Terminal B disconnected.
Terminal S disconnected.
I think that there is a system of ways that the regulator brings these lights on, to signal the type of trouble. On at idle, going off when you rev it. Off at idle, going on when you rev it, and flashing them. I also think that the flashing is the ‘Excessive output’ warning.

When the regulator has a problem that prevents it from controlling the output, the alternator charges flat out, its voltage only held to the rising battery voltage. This would have the fusible link carrying excessive current for an extended period of time. Finally the link blows out. When this happens the alternator is on full change, about 90 amps at 15 to 16 volts, 15.5 X 90 equals about 1390 watts, suddenly the link opens, and the amperage falls to zero. Now we have 1390 watts divided by 0 amps equals 1390 volts.

This would not worry any thing if the alternator was isolated by the fusible link, but there are a number of circuits still connected to the alternator, that will have to dissipate this high voltage. As there is quite a lot of energy in the alternator, all the circuits that are still connected, will take quite a few milliseconds to dissipate it. The circuits that will suffer the most are, the low resistance circuits, any relays that are on at the time will have the points welded together.

Harvey.

[kwren]

Thanks for the input Trevor! Great to have you back in our lives!

To clarify, a higher amperage alternator doesn't necessarily put out more amps. It has the ability to do so with an increased load without damage to the components. The Heavy Duty rebuild is rated at 160 amp capacity as opposed to the 95ish of an original one.

An alternator output is in volts. The voltage determines the amps that is drawn with a constant load. With the same voltage output with either alternator, the load... or amps would be the same.

As Trevor verified, the problem arises from an increased load that usually causes the heat factor to take its toll on the components.

Logic tells me that the main difference in the two is the higher amperage components that are put in the Heavy Duty rebuild.

I could be mistaken, but I would be surprised if replacing the windings was a routine part of the rebuild process. That would dig too far into the rebuilding company's "greed factor". It would be nice to get heavy duty windings, but as Trevor said, larger gauge wire would not really be feasible for a couple of reasons. Maybe some of the people that elect to have their old alternators rebuilt could give some input on that?

Again, I could be mistaken. but I don't believe that windings are the major problem with our alternator failures.

Is interesting to learn, but sometime during the learning process we just have to "change the danged thing"

Keith

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by kwren

Thanks for the input Trevor! Great to have you back in our lives!

To clarify, a higher amperage alternator doesn't necessarily put out more amps. It has the ability to do so with an increased load without damage to the components. The Heavy Duty rebuild is rated at 160 amp capacity as opposed to the 95ish of an original one.

An alternator output is in volts. The voltage determines the amps that is drawn with a constant load. With the same voltage output with either alternator, the load... or amps would be the same.

As Trevor verified, the problem arises from an increased load that usually causes the heat factor to take its toll on the components.

Logic tells me that the main difference in the two is the higher amperage components that are put in the Heavy Duty rebuild.

I could be mistaken, but I would be surprised if replacing the windings was a routine part of the rebuild process. That would dig too far into the rebuilding company's "greed factor". It would be nice to get heavy duty windings, but as Trevor said, larger gauge wire would not really be feasible for a couple of reasons. Maybe some of the people that elect to have their old alternators rebuilt could give some input on that?

Again, I could be mistaken. but I don't believe that windings are the major problem with our alternator failures.

Is interesting to learn, but sometime during the learning process we just have to "change the danged thing"

Keith

How do Keith?

The only way to increase the current the alternator is capable of delivering at full capacity, is to alter the windings. If this is not being done, then the voltage regulator has been messed with, so that the output voltage is increased above normal for a given level of detected voltage. The customer will notice an increase in the level of charge and no doubt will be happy with his bill.

This does not result in a genuine higher rating and would be a "con." What is more the battery will complain and there will be an increase in the heat factor. However this gimmick would help those constantly running many accessories and doing short runs, but in a back handed way. You get what you pay for.

Cheers, Trevor.

[svxcess]

Slightly off-topic, but probably of some good use.

Maniac Electric Motors, who built my 160A high-output alternator, has a page on Voltage Drop Testing for Charging/Starting System Circuits. Click HERE

Gives circuit loading procedures, test points, readings, components or circuits being tested and action to take.

.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by svxcess

Slightly off-topic, but probably of some good use.

Maniac Electric Motors, who built my 160A high-output alternator, has a page on Voltage Drop Testing for Charging/Starting System Circuits. Click HERE

Gives circuit loading procedures, test points, readings, components or circuits being tested and action to take.

.

Right on topic and right in content. The instruction being to test for a value of voltage drop ACROSS each circuit, rather than by means of a voltage test at each end. Many times over years, both Bev. and I have covered this point, but still find some testing in a less accurate fashion.

[b3lha]

Originally Posted by oab_au

Now we have 1390 watts divided by 0 amps equals 1390 volts.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by oab_au

Tom this bit is starting to make sense. The regulator in the alt has a ‘Diagnostic & Warning Circuit’ that operates the ‘Change Light’ to warn of problems. For some unknown reason (maybe they just wanted them to be noticed) they have used a few diodes to have the ‘Stop light check’, Parking brake light’, ‘Charge light’, and the ‘’Steering Warning light’ all coming on.
The book says that the Diagnostic system will warn of these problems;
No voltage generated.
Excessive output.
Terminal B disconnected.
Terminal S disconnected.
I think that there is a system of ways that the regulator brings these lights on, to signal the type of trouble. On at idle, going off when you rev it. Off at idle, going on when you rev it, and flashing them. I also think that the flashing is the ‘Excessive output’ warning.

When the regulator has a problem that prevents it from controlling the output, the alternator charges flat out, its voltage only held to the rising battery voltage. This would have the fusible link carrying excessive current for an extended period of time. Finally the link blows out. When this happens the alternator is on full change, about 90 amps at 15 to 16 volts, 15.5 X 90 equals about 1390 watts, suddenly the link opens, and the amperage falls to zero. Now we have 1390 watts divided by 0 amps equals 1390 volts.

This would not worry any thing if the alternator was isolated by the fusible link, but there are a number of circuits still connected to the alternator, that will have to dissipate this high voltage. As there is quite a lot of energy in the alternator, all the circuits that are still connected, will take quite a few milliseconds to dissipate it. The circuits that will suffer the most are, the low resistance circuits, any relays that are on at the time will have the points welded together.

Harvey.

"The regulator in the alt has a ‘Diagnostic & Warning Circuit’ that operates the ‘Change Light’ to warn of problems. For some unknown reason (maybe they just wanted them to be noticed) they have used a few diodes to have the ‘Stop light check’, Parking brake light’, ‘Charge light’, and the ‘’Steering Warning light’ all coming on."

The reason for the arrangement is obvious. The circuitry is arranged in this way in order that several lamps, which are activated via devices which are open to ground when the engine is not running, are included in the lamp test function and are illuminated at ignition turn on. This is achieved via the diodes and the alternator fault circuit, which is closed to ground, when the alternator is at rest. Any alternator fault indication will be confined to the appropriate indicator lamp.

"I think that there is a system of ways that the regulator brings these lights on, to signal the type of trouble. On at idle, going off when you rev it. Off at idle, going on when you rev it, and flashing them. I also think that the flashing is the ‘Excessive output’ warning."

These thoughts are not based on logic or fact, written, diagrammatic or otherwise.

"When the regulator has a problem that prevents it from controlling the output, the alternator charges flat out, its voltage only held to the rising battery voltage. This would have the fusible link carrying excessive current for an extended period of time. Finally the link blows out. When this happens the alternator is on full change, about 90 amps at 15 to 16 volts, 15.5 X 90 equals about 1390 watts, suddenly the link opens, and the amperage falls to zero. Now we have 1390 watts divided by 0 amps equals 1390 volts."

If there are no/zero/0 volts there can not be current flowing in a circuit, i.e. 0 amps = zero volts. The calculation resolving 1390 volts is hardly accurate. However it would seem that the intention is to establish that a voltage spike may occur. In order to generate enough current to melt the fusible link, this must occur against the the battery, rather than directly to ground. What is more the link is not a quick blow item.

"This would not worry any thing if the alternator was isolated by the fusible link, but there are a number of circuits still connected to the alternator, that will have to dissipate this high voltage. As there is quite a lot of energy in the alternator, all the circuits that are still connected, will take quite a few milliseconds to dissipate it. The circuits that will suffer the most are, the low resistance circuits, any relays that are on at the time will have the points welded together."

The above would again indicate a theory confined to a spike. Or is it that after a few milliseconds of dissipating the “quite a ot of energy in the alternator”, the effected device will fail and become out of circuit. In which case the high voltage could have been present for a period?

The wording and text is understood, but the exact issue, which has only now made sense and was to be the essence of the post, remains hidden. The inaccurate treatise covering the trouble lights, being superfluous.

[kwren]

This is an email and email reply about the high amp alternator for our cars. First is the reply I copy pasted it and this is the way I received it.

Hello Keith,

The windings are not a normal cause for failure, but when we build a 'High Output' alternator, we use new windings with more copper (this is where the capabilities come from). Heavy duty High Amp Diodes, and other modifications, make it more effecient with more capabilities, allwithin the original case.

Thank You,
Christian

--- On Sun, 3/29/09, keithwren@comcast.net <keithwren@comcast.net> wrote:

From: keithwren@comcast.net <keithwren@comcast.net>
Subject: High output rebuilt alternators
To: christian@maniacelectricmotors.com
Date: Sunday, March 29, 2009, 8:02 PM
Hello there!

You are on my list to get a high amp alternator for my SVX.

I assume that this is acquired by taking the original alternator and putting in higher amperage components. I am in a discussion with other SVX owners about how this is achieved.

I would imagine that you use higher amperage components for the rebuild.

Do you also have to change the windings?
Any information you would share with me would be appreciated.
Thanks!

Keith Wren
The website link!

http://www.maniacelectricmotors.com/hiou160ampal6.html

There you go!

Keith

[svxcess]

Christian is a real sweetheart to talk to in person. She is very knowledgable about alternators and charging systems.

If I remember correctly, she said that the windings were a finer gauge of copper, which allowed for a greater amount of windings. This is what gives the low-speed improvement in performance.

They really have high quality control; starters and alternators are all they do. They bench and field test for at least 30 minutes with all kinds of loads at different RPMs.

She said that if an alternator went bad under warranty, she issues a call tag to have it picked up and returned to you at their expense.

.

[kwren]

Definitely not a fly by night company, but a class act.
Refreshing in "today's" America!

Email them late yesterday and got back a response this am!

The finer wire would make a lot of sense. Gives the room for the added number of windings and since opposition to current flow is a matter of inductance rather than the ohm resistance, that works for higher amps!

For $160.00 it is certainly on my agenda! That price includes a shipping label that sends the core back at no additional charge. No sales tax for most states.

Keith

[essveeexxee]

10 characters.

[TexasSwift]

Trevor,
Sorry for the confusion about the DC readings (post 26). I did read DC, just not above the battery voltage. I was getting no charging level of DC only AC.

Also for KWren, I got an alternator today and am going to "change the danged thing" tonight.

Keith

[kwren]

Originally Posted by TexasSwift

Also for KWren, I got an alternator today and am going to "change the danged thing" tonight.

Keith

Good for you... you fellow Texan!

Probably be about 73 degrees when you change it... would like a bit of that here in Washington state

Keith

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by kwren

This is an email and email reply about the high amp alternator for our cars. First is the reply I copy pasted it and this is the way I received it.

Hello Keith,

The windings are not a normal cause for failure, but when we build a 'High Output' alternator, we use new windings with more copper (this is where the capabilities come from). Heavy duty High Amp Diodes, and other modifications, make it more effecient with more capabilities, allwithin the original case.

Thank You,
Christian

--- On Sun, 3/29/09, keithwren@comcast.net <keithwren@comcast.net> wrote:

From: keithwren@comcast.net <keithwren@comcast.net>
Subject: High output rebuilt alternators
To: christian@maniacelectricmotors.com
Date: Sunday, March 29, 2009, 8:02 PM
Hello there!

You are on my list to get a high amp alternator for my SVX.

I assume that this is acquired by taking the original alternator and putting in higher amperage components. I am in a discussion with other SVX owners about how this is achieved.

I would imagine that you use higher amperage components for the rebuild.

Do you also have to change the windings?
Any information you would share with me would be appreciated.
Thanks!

Keith Wren
The website link!

http://www.maniacelectricmotors.com/hiou160ampal6.html

There you go!

Keith

More copper does not necessarily indicate finer wire, heavier wire being the requirement.

Even so, finer wire may be used in order to increase the turns ratio if space is limited, but this would be a compromise which they have found acceptable, due to the original designers very conservative approach. Practical experience always over rules the theoretical.

It is a pity that they do not include this information within their sales data as it would give added, much deserved credibility. If I had the choice I would certainly use them.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by kwren

Definitely not a fly by night company, but a class act.
Refreshing in "today's" America!

Email them late yesterday and got back a response this am!

The finer wire would make a lot of sense. Gives the room for the added number of windings and since opposition to current flow is a matter of inductance rather than the ohm resistance, that works for higher amps!

For $160.00 it is certainly on my agenda! That price includes a shipping label that sends the core back at no additional charge. No sales tax for most states.

Keith

N.B. The "opposition to current flow" does constitute resistance, rather than inductance being a factor.