The Subaru SVX World Network   SVX Network Forums
Live Chat!
SVX or Subaru Links
Old Lockers
Photo Post
How-To Documents
Message Archive
SVX Shop Search
IRC users:

Go Back   The Subaru SVX World Network > SVX Main Forums > Not Exactly SVX

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #31  
Old 03-16-2008, 11:26 PM
Hondasucks's Avatar
Hondasucks Hondasucks is offline
Subaru Technician
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Vancouver, WA
Posts: 1,512
Send a message via AIM to Hondasucks Send a message via MSN to Hondasucks Send a message via Yahoo to Hondasucks
Registered SVX
Plus I heard somewhere that they can either make diesel or heating oil, but can't get both out of the same batch of oil, and with the cold winter storms and such they've been having back east, where the primary heating source is oil, the demand for heating oil went up, so the supply for diesel is down, meaining the price went up... I don't complain since I hardly drive my truck, and I really couldn't complain too much if I still had my diesel rabbit, since at 50 MPG + the ability to run bio fuels, I can't complain too much about the price.
__________________
1992 SVX LS-L #1222 Pearl White
1987 GL Turbo wagon, 5 lug conversion, D/R 5 speed (Rice killer)
1992 Dodge Ram 4x4 diesel (car hauler)
1968 Dodge Polara convertible (Camaro killer)
1990 Toyota Corolla FWD auto (330,000 mile grocery getter)
1986 VW Jetta
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 03-17-2008, 04:27 AM
subeman90's Avatar
subeman90 subeman90 is offline
Soobologist
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Akron, PA
Posts: 2,238
Send a message via AIM to subeman90
Registered SVX
I will buy one if it gets 45+ MPG and comes with a 5 speed...they can keep the automatics cause I don't want one of those.


I know they aren't going to offer a manual but maybe in a few more years???
__________________
Matt
15 OBW premium w/eyesight
A picture of an SVX in the garage
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 03-17-2008, 02:30 PM
jeffast jeffast is offline
I kill more trannies then god
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: wyotech
Posts: 1,209
Quote:
Originally Posted by subeman90 View Post
I will buy one if it gets 45+ MPG and comes with a 5 speed...they can keep the automatics cause I don't want one of those.


I know they aren't going to offer a manual but maybe in a few more years???
+1
what is it with subaru, and putting auto's in cars. i mean the first gen legacy turbo wagons weren't even available in 5 speed whats up with that?
evrey car they build should have Manuel as an option, especially their coupes!!!
__________________
1991 xt6 eg33?
1993 gc track car
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 03-17-2008, 04:59 PM
GreenMarine's Avatar
GreenMarine GreenMarine is offline
From POST-***** to LURKER
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 5,873
I've been following this VERY closley... Info was available about the Diesel about a year ago, so I hate to say it but this thread is kinda WTLY...

That aside, YES, I do plan on getting a Diesel Outback whenever they come to the US... However I am going to wait until the second generation of this engine. They did suceed in making quite a nice little diesel, however if you read the hard details about the engine, they have left off a few "modern" components that VW and Mercedes are using... I'll be waiting till the engine gets it's update and is released in the US... Subaru has already said that they have absolutly NO PLANS to release it in the US until they are positive that it will meet the California emissions... Inorder for this to happen they will need those "upgrades" that I mentioned VW and Mercedes already have. They will also have to fit a different particulate filter to the engines and that is probably going to add about $1,500 - $2,000 to the cost of the cars...

Either way, The Turbo Diesel Outback is the car that I am waiting for

~ Chris
__________________
2020 Subaru Outback Touring - Wife's first Subaru
2005 Volvo V70R - 5-cylinder love! :Heart:

** SOLD **1998 Subaru Legacy 2.5GT Wagon - MOST RELIABLE car I've ever owned
** SOLD **2006Subaru WRXSTi (Former "Boxer4Racing.com / Continential Tire" STi) - Built EJ22t block / EJ207 JDM STi "big port heads" - 9,000rpm MONEY PIT!!!
** SOLD ** 1995 "Tree-Hugger Green" SVX L AWD(5 MT) --- "Gumby" 130K miles #399 in MY95, my original love...
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 03-17-2008, 05:06 PM
GreenMarine's Avatar
GreenMarine GreenMarine is offline
From POST-***** to LURKER
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 5,873
Quote:
Originally Posted by svxistentialist View Post
That is interesting all right Dan.

It's a bit of a Catch 22 or chicken and egg situation, isn't it?

Diesel is the more efficient fuel, but is more expensive because the refineries make too low a percentage of it, and demand for it is rising. The higher the demand, the more expensive it will get.

Meantime, back on the ranch, all goods deliveries are rising in price because the primary delivery fuel is being made in too small a quantity. Plus the economy is taking a nosedive. I wonder why?

It hardly requires a degree in economics to see what needs to be done here. The refineries, or some percentage of them, should be forced by central government to up-scale diesel output on a phased in basis.

Unless of course those oil refinery people have somebody close to the top in government who would help them resist change that might cost them money.

I'll give you a few reasons why our economy is ****ED in the US at the moment... Agree with me or not, this is Science and my degree of study...

Reasons:
1.) The ongoing (and quite frankly POINTLESS) war in IRAQ which is costing us, what nearly 50 BILLION a month!!!
2.) Corn and Ethanol production
3.) The Bush administration...

Those are just a few, but they are definitely MAJOR ones... I did a research paper on the effects of Corn Production in this country and all the information I gathered points HEAVILY to this... Mark my words, Corn based Ethanol in this country is one of the most economically and environmentally large ****-ups we have ever made... I pot a writeup on NASIOC when someone challenged my research to their "oppinion" that explains it all...

~ Chris
__________________
2020 Subaru Outback Touring - Wife's first Subaru
2005 Volvo V70R - 5-cylinder love! :Heart:

** SOLD **1998 Subaru Legacy 2.5GT Wagon - MOST RELIABLE car I've ever owned
** SOLD **2006Subaru WRXSTi (Former "Boxer4Racing.com / Continential Tire" STi) - Built EJ22t block / EJ207 JDM STi "big port heads" - 9,000rpm MONEY PIT!!!
** SOLD ** 1995 "Tree-Hugger Green" SVX L AWD(5 MT) --- "Gumby" 130K miles #399 in MY95, my original love...
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 03-17-2008, 05:35 PM
svxistentialist's Avatar
svxistentialist svxistentialist is offline
Jersey Girl
Alcyone Gold Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Ireland
Posts: 8,270
Send a message via Skype™ to svxistentialist
Registered SVX
Well Chris

1) is a given, wars cost money.

3) is related to 1), so let's say I agree.

Can you give a number of detailed and reasoned points as to why ethanol production is harming the economy? A lot of people would be interested to hear your point of view based on research, including me.

I think there are other world-based problems causing the difficulties, including the migration of production based industries to cheap labour economies like China, but it would be good to hear what you think is the problem with ethanol production.

Joe
__________________
Black Betty [Bam a Lam!] '93 UK spec, still languishing Betty
Jersey Girl Silver '92 UK [Channel Isles] 40K Jersey Girl @ Mersea
Candy Purple Honda Blackbird Plum Dangerous
White X2 RVR Mitsubishi 1800GDI. Vantastic

40,000 miles Jersey Girl
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 03-17-2008, 06:53 PM
demonsvx's Avatar
demonsvx demonsvx is offline
building more AK47's
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: crossville tennessee
Posts: 978
Read this article in popular mechanics http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...h/4248759.html
Told my friends years ago we would be digging up our landfills for energy Really when you think about the energy that goes into making all of our garbage there would be a way to get it back out, this might be it.
__________________
1992 SVX LSL Ex wifey has it now pending self destruction 2001 Legacy mods to come 1992 Subaru Legacy 2.2 214k Boob wheels CANT KILL IT
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 03-17-2008, 07:53 PM
subi-crosser's Avatar
subi-crosser subi-crosser is offline
Now with more color
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: cumberland, md
Posts: 2,452
Send a message via Yahoo to subi-crosser
Registered SVX Classic SVX
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenMarineSVX View Post
I'll give you a few reasons why our economy is ****ED in the US at the moment... Agree with me or not, this is Science and my degree of study...

Reasons:
1.) The ongoing (and quite frankly POINTLESS) war in IRAQ which is costing us, what nearly 50 BILLION a month!!!
2.) Corn and Ethanol production
3.) The Bush administration...

Those are just a few, but they are definitely MAJOR ones... I did a research paper on the effects of Corn Production in this country and all the information I gathered points HEAVILY to this... Mark my words, Corn based Ethanol in this country is one of the most economically and environmentally large ****-ups we have ever made... I pot a writeup on NASIOC when someone challenged my research to their "oppinion" that explains it all...

~ Chris
Now I feel less guilty about bringing my diesel VW Rabbit home tonight. (that I plan on running on Bio-diesel)


The only thing I know about corn based fuels is that you get oxygen when you grow corn, you can burn the stuff left over for fuel when you run the mash through the 'still', pure alcohol comes out of the still, with a few changes, you can run alcohol in your car.

I also know that the war is not all about oil, it's about our kids being able to walk to school without a bomb going off on the roadside.

I also know that all the oil that comes down our pipe from Alaska gets loaded into a tanker and shipped to china and japan, since our OWN Greenie-WEENIES will not ALLOW US to build any new refineries! ( And we have not built a new one for 30 years!)

I know that our oil wells in Texas, Pennsylvania, and 30 other states were 'capped' because 'domestic' oil companies couldn't compete with middle east oil........

I say, let the chinese buy from the middle east, we can build a few refineries and use OUR OWN oil. Let the greedy arabs use their oil to IRRIGATE their CROPS!!

GRRRR!!!
__________________
I'm not a REDNECK! I am an Appalachian-AMERICAN!!

"Can't go to work today. The 'voices' said to "Stay home and clean the guns".


Most famous Red-Neck last words...
" Hey Everybody, Watch This!!)


http://s306.photobucket.com/albums/nn272/subi-crosser/
Jerry

Last edited by subi-crosser; 03-17-2008 at 07:55 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 03-17-2008, 10:52 PM
GreenMarine's Avatar
GreenMarine GreenMarine is offline
From POST-***** to LURKER
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 5,873
Quote:
Originally Posted by svxistentialist View Post
Well Chris

1) is a given, wars cost money.

3) is related to 1), so let's say I agree.

Can you give a number of detailed and reasoned points as to why ethanol production is harming the economy? A lot of people would be interested to hear your point of view based on research, including me.

I think there are other world-based problems causing the difficulties, including the migration of production based industries to cheap labour economies like China, but it would be good to hear what you think is the problem with ethanol production.

Joe
I can list a few, but I have to be careful as to not go off on a tangent as I am studying for a Toxicology exam that is tomorrow...

*!* Please note, I loose my train of thought rather easily when typing on the internet so please try to make some sense of what I am about to type. Also, I could give an entire lecture on this one single topic, so I am trying to give you a crash course in everything that I've been researching and learning this semester all in one post... Short story, it's going to be difficult to get my point across so you'll just have to trust me... *!*

Alright so, point at hand: "Ethanol production is a MASSIVE MISTAKE"

Why?

First and foremost, we'll define "Science" because so many people now days don't actually know what it is (not an insult on anyone her by any means, but it's the truth)... Science is the pursuit of truth in the physical and natural world by means of observation, experimentation and calculation... The reason I wanted to define that is because our knowledge is far beyond what most people believe is true. This has to do with politics, economics and the all mighty dollar (though it's not all that mighty at the moment)... Now, lets define "Scientific Fact"... A Scientific Fact is a KNOWN outcome or result which, by means of professional opinion is determined to be FACT...

(I'm trying to maintain my train of thought but it's difficult with my roommates ****ING Bass pounding my wall!!!)

Right, so I told you that story just so we are clear on the idea that only a group of professionals in a given field can set a "fact"... It is up to us, the general population, to either believe them or not... Now think of what happens when you tell someone in this country that they can't have something or that they have to give up something... They don't like it do they? Their response to you would probably be something like "**** you, I'm an American, you can't tell me what I can and can't have, it's a free country"... In a large degree, they are right... This is a free country and you can believe what you want, worship what you want and for the most part, do what you want.

The true outrage in the science community is when politics play havoc with science and, what should be, public knowelage and TRUTH available to EVERYONE. Yet it is held back because it would cause the economy to loose money at the expense of the one variable that "we don't know everything forsure 100.00%"...

Point I am trying to make is that the scientific facts on issues can easily be obscurred by politics and people with $$$. Supprisingly examples of this are rather easy to find if you know what to search for...



Onto the meat of the subject... Reasons why corn based Ethanol is the worst ****ing mistake this country has made in a long time...

1.) Energy required to produce Ethanol from corn
2.) Transportation and Distrabution system for the Ethanol
3.) Effect of Ethanol on the economy (that you probably never thought about)...


Point 1Now to elaborate on the topics... Firstly, "What is Ethanol made of?"... Simple answer - CORN... (non chemistry minded peeps bare with me) What is the molecular formula for Ethanol? C2H5(OH)... And now the molecular formula of, ummm Gasoline (for example since it comes from oil)? C8H18... The reason I put that there is to compare the efficency of the two fuels as use in, lets say an automobile...

Right so the combustion of Ethanol follows the below formula:

C2H5OH(g) + 3 O2(g) ===> 2 CO2(g) + 3 H2O(l)... The enthalpy of this reaction is -1409KJ/Mol (kilojoules per mole)

Now the combustion reaction of Octane, or gasoline (if you burn 93 octane in your SVX, WHICH YOU SHOULD BE DOING, then roughly 93% of the fuel is octane, a straight chain, eight carbon molecule) follows this formula:

2 C8H18(g) + 25 O2(g) ===> 16 CO2(g) + 18 H2O(l)... The enthalpy of this reaction is -5430KJ/Mole (kilojoules per mole)

* Basically, you are releasing alot more energy by burning a mole of gasoline than a mole of ethanol... More energy released = more work can be done with the same amount of fuel burnt*

So, we know now that by burning ethanol we aren't going to get much energy out of it (roughly 4x less energy)... So this means that we have to burn MORE OF IT TO GET THE SAME RESULT... Remember that...

Now onto the production of Ethanol... Where is corn grown in this country? The midwest... What is in the midwest? Almost nothing for miles and miles and miles... So, we are either going to have to truck this corn to a refining facility somewhere else, or build one out there in the midwest... Well, we built them out there in the mid-west... So now we can refine corn into ethanol... Sticking with the first point above, the only problem is with this whole "producing ethanol from corn" is the input energy required to produce a gallon of ethanol... Here it comes ladies and gentlemen, and I really want you to think long and hard about this... It takes roughly 1.3 usgallons of fuel oil to produce a gallon of ethanol.... What?!?!? Wait a sec... So we are burning more energy (IN OIL) to produce this ethanol, which in the long run yields less energy than the oil we are burning to produce it!!!!... YOU DON'T HAVE TO HAVE A PHD IN ENGINEERING OR CHEMISTRY TO KNOW THAT THAT IS ALL ****ED UP!!!!... So WHY THE HELL are we even doing this if we are now burning MORE oil than before?!?!? Honestly, I don't know the answer. Either way, it isn't for me to answer. I am an Environmental Technology Major with minors in Organic Chemistry and Toxicology. My job is to figure this stuff out, not implement it into society...

Point 2 Well, since I have been typing away for a while I guess I can kiss studying for that Tox exam good-bye, so we'll keep rolling on with the topics... Secondly is the Transportation and Distrabution system for ethanol...

Remember that we have all these thousands and thousands and thousands of acres of corn being grown in the Mid-west. Now with Ethanol refineries out there, we have not only corn, but TONS of Ethanol. And when I say TONS I mean TOOOOONS. And it's all just sitting out there in the mid-west, waiting to be used at the pumps. But wait, there isn't a major network of transportation and distrabution for all this "fuel" that we have sitting out there!!! There never was an "Ethanol pipeline" built to get all this fuel to... somewhere, wherever they were going to sell it... So it sits out there, in massive tanks... But here's another kicker about ethanol that I bet youguys didn't know. Ethanol has a shelf life... That's right, so if it isn't used within about 3-4 months of being produced, it is basically garbage... So what are these ethanol refineries having to do?? They are having to burn it off... Just like a big refinery at sea burning off excess natural gas. There is nowhere for the fuel to go, and more corn keeps coming in every day, production doesn't stop because there aren't any tanker trucks to take the fuel to, wherever it would go... The refineries keep producing, and burning off... Essentially wasting MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of $$$, and further increasing pollution levels... Don't get me started on pollution though because then I'll write a novel... If only some of youguys knew the **** I do, you'd be scared to drink your own water, hell I am...

*Basically, YES - we are successfully producing ALOT of ethanol... But there is Nowhere for it to go, and no way to transport it...


Point 3 - Ethanol's effects on the economy... Lets start again with Corn... What do cattle eat?? Feed and hay... What do hogs eat?? Feed and lots of other crap... What do chickens eat?? Feed... And what is this "Feed" made out of?? - All together now "CORN"!!!... Has anyone noticed that in the last 10 years the prices of food has SKYROCKETED?!?! I mean I know I am just a college student with almost no $$$ so obviously I am going to feel it alot worse than most people on the boards. But surely some of you must notice now that Milk is around $5 a gallon. Beef, Pork and Poultry prices have all risen... Why is this??? Simple... The animals eat the feed... The feed is made from corn... The corn farmers were given HUGE subsidies from the federal government to jump onboard with the Ethanol program. So they did, in record numbers!!! With tons and tons of corn production going to the frankly ****ED up ethanol production process, and being sold to that process at a higher price than it is being sold to make feed, where do you think the corn farmers are going to try and send their corn??? To the ethanol refineries... Sometimes the profits are 3, 4 or 5x higher than before... Tell me that you wouldn't want to make $500,000 profit a year instead of just $100,000... So with all the corn going to the ethanol refineries, there is a HIGH demand for corn in the production of livestock feed... ECON 101 - "with High demand comes High prices"... Therefore the cost of the feed has gone up for livestock farmers, who intern have to sell their animals for a higher cost when slaughter time comes around... The slaughter house then sells the meat for higher cost and so on and so on...

TRUE STORY: North Carolina is the nation's largest producer of Meat. The LARGEST swine slaughter house in the country closed down not long ago (a few weeks ago), laying off over 1,200 workers. This slaughter house was the ONLY major job people had in the small town in North Carolina. The town is now falling completely apart with people looking for work... WHY did the largest slaughter house in the country just suddenly close down?? In a public release they noted the price of feed meant that the company was turning record low profits. They therefore decided to move the plant to the mid-west in an attempt to avoid the ludicrously high corn prices and transportation costs they were incurring when shipping all the feed down from the mid-west...

I have said it before and I will stand behind my reasearch, and the reasearch of others in this field. Ethanol is probably the worst environmental mistake this country has made in the last 60 years. The effects of which we will continue to feel even after the government finally pulls their heads outta their asses and TRIES to recover from the insane losses we are being hit with...

I know this was a long write-up, and to save myself the time, I am not going to read back over it. If I do that then I'll end up adding things and then I'll never get to study tonight... Any logical scientific questions I will gladly recognize and attempt to answer to the best of my ability. However, if you have an opinion on the matter and are not in the Environmental Science field, Corn farming, or Food Industry, don't bother trying to tell me I am wrong. You will only succeed in making yourself look stupid... The research is out there for everyone to see... All over the internet... GO, GOOGLE, LEARN!!! That way the next time you hear someone talking about ethanol being such a great thing you can set them straight and provide SCIENTIFIC FACTS to back up your opinions. Because without fact to back you up, your opinions are like assholes. Everyone has them and they all stink...

(That wasn't directed at you Joe by anymeans. I just don't want people's opinions trying to tell me I am messed up and don't know what the hell I am talking about after spending nearly an hour typing this up. Especially since this is one of the main issues in my research field)...


Quote:
Originally Posted by subi-crosser View Post
Now I feel less guilty about bringing my diesel VW Rabbit home tonight. (that I plan on running on Bio-diesel)


The only thing I know about corn based fuels is that you get oxygen when you grow corn, you can burn the stuff left over for fuel when you run the mash through the 'still', pure alcohol comes out of the still, with a few changes, you can run alcohol in your car.
See above, section 1

Quote:
I also know that the war is not all about oil, it's about our kids being able to walk to school without a bomb going off on the roadside.
Agree 100%... But we have been babying the Iraqi government for quite a while (why? I have no idea - again, politics and I don't mix). They were supposed to take control of the country a while ago, yet we are still there - and at HUGE COST to us, the taxpayers


Quote:
I also know that all the oil that comes down our pipe from Alaska gets loaded into a tanker and shipped to china and japan, since our OWN Greenie-WEENIES will not ALLOW US to build any new refineries! ( And we have not built a new one for 30 years!)
Although I didn't know this, it doesn't surprise me at all. The main thing slowing everything down though is politics. We have the technology and resources to become totally energy independant. We actually have sufficent sites in this country for wind turbines to power the ENTIRE country!!! But what will happen to the pil companies, coal companies, and the jobs they produce... Again, politics and economics interfering with Science and the health and safety of people and the environment drive me crazy


Quote:
I know that our oil wells in Texas, Pennsylvania, and 30 other states were 'capped' because 'domestic' oil companies couldn't compete with middle east oil........
They were also "capped" in an effort to preserve the "oil on our soil" so to speak... Why eat all your candy when you can eat everyone else's candy, then when all that is gone, you'll still have yours to munch on till you find something else to eat up...


Quote:
I say, let the chinese buy from the middle east, we can build a few refineries and use OUR OWN oil. Let the greedy arabs use their oil to IRRIGATE their CROPS!!


GRRRR!!!
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but the fact of the matter is that we are an oil consuming nation who, per capita, consumes nearly 10 times the amount as the next closest country's consumption per capita. We need to get off oil and FAST. We need another industrial (or be-it "Technological") Revolution... The scary thing is I can see the next world war being fought over energy, pollution and oil...

Thanks for listening guys... I am glad to talk about anything environmental that I am doing, researching or learning with anyone that would like to learn something new and interesting. Like I said above though, I won't tolerate opinionated bashing on this subject. If you bring an opinion, you'd better be backing it up with scientific fact or be in the same degree fields as I am in. I am sick of environmental issues being taken with a grain of salt and people calling us environmental scientists "hippie tree huggers"... EVERYTHING we speak about, write about, or whatever can all be backed up with research and evidence thereby making it SCIENTIFIC FACT...

SCIENTIFIC FACT > Opinion...

~ Chris
__________________
2020 Subaru Outback Touring - Wife's first Subaru
2005 Volvo V70R - 5-cylinder love! :Heart:

** SOLD **1998 Subaru Legacy 2.5GT Wagon - MOST RELIABLE car I've ever owned
** SOLD **2006Subaru WRXSTi (Former "Boxer4Racing.com / Continential Tire" STi) - Built EJ22t block / EJ207 JDM STi "big port heads" - 9,000rpm MONEY PIT!!!
** SOLD ** 1995 "Tree-Hugger Green" SVX L AWD(5 MT) --- "Gumby" 130K miles #399 in MY95, my original love...

Last edited by GreenMarine; 03-17-2008 at 10:57 PM. Reason: Added color :-)....
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 03-17-2008, 11:05 PM
GreenMarine's Avatar
GreenMarine GreenMarine is offline
From POST-***** to LURKER
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 5,873
Sorry to come off as a bit of an ass in my post above... It's just the stress of dealing with peoples opinions and ignorance towards chemistry and environmental issues is almost as bad as the stress I was under when I was in Aerospace and Mechanical Engineering...

If people would just believe that what we say is the truth and we say it because we care about each other, our children and the planet that we live on... I like teaching people about Environmental, Organic Chemistry / toxicological issues. I only ask that you don't blow me off like so many people have done to scientists in my field in the past... If you don't agree with what I present then tell me and present solid proof to back yours up and I will research it and let you know what I think (if it is BS or legit)...

Thanks

~ Chris
__________________
2020 Subaru Outback Touring - Wife's first Subaru
2005 Volvo V70R - 5-cylinder love! :Heart:

** SOLD **1998 Subaru Legacy 2.5GT Wagon - MOST RELIABLE car I've ever owned
** SOLD **2006Subaru WRXSTi (Former "Boxer4Racing.com / Continential Tire" STi) - Built EJ22t block / EJ207 JDM STi "big port heads" - 9,000rpm MONEY PIT!!!
** SOLD ** 1995 "Tree-Hugger Green" SVX L AWD(5 MT) --- "Gumby" 130K miles #399 in MY95, my original love...
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 03-18-2008, 08:18 AM
Nemesis Destiny's Avatar
Nemesis Destiny Nemesis Destiny is offline
6MT STi-ified, now with R180!
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 668
Send a message via ICQ to Nemesis Destiny Send a message via MSN to Nemesis Destiny
Chris, thank you for that write up. Excellent stuff in there, and things that, as you pointed out, a lot of people don't know or realise.

I have a few theories (opinion, a smelly asshole? ) as to the origin of the political motivations behind the decisions that are made which appear foolish to regular folks like you and I who see eye-to-eye on environmental issues.

It occurs to me, that whenever there is a decision that could be made to produce efficient, low-impact energy, versus one that leads to increased use of oil and gas, which incidentally (I say incidentally because they don't do it on purpose, they simply don't care. AT ALL.) have high environmental impact, the root of the matter is Big Oil. They have their hands shoved up to the elbows in the ass of Government that they're working the politicos like a handpuppet.

Think about that everytime you hear about a decision that King George has made for you. What are his motivations? He has a vested interest in Oil Futures. He is involved in the oil industry. He has owned oil companies for crying out loud. What else do you think dictates his (and probably a lot of other politicos') decisions? ($Monetarily$) Motivated Self-Interest.

Think about that when you ask yourself why your nation's army is still in Iraq killing civilians? Duke Dick of Cheney has his fingers in the Halliburton Warmongery Pie. Motivated Self Interest.

It's wrong, and just a little bit dishonest, but they get away with it because they are some of the most powerful men on the planet. Who is going to stop them?

Sorry to digress so much from the topic at hand.

Thanks again Chris for your insightful discussion of the topic at hand. I appreciate that you are sharing your passion for your chosen field of study with the rest of us.

And as for the original topic, I fully endorse the diesel Outback. Heck, diesels should be available in more models (from EVERY manufacturer), like they are in Europe. I would buy one.

This is just a stepping stone to something else that Subaru has in the works, that they showed off at the Tokyo Motor Show last year (or was it the year before?): the hybrid turbodiesel. Combine a small boxer turbodiesel with an electric hybrid drivetrain (technology courtesy of Toyota IIRC). I believe the concept was called the B5.

And to the naysayers talking about the new diesels which require expensive urea and NOx Particulate filter maintenance, it should be noted that Honda is bringing to market a superclean diesel which does not require urea injection, and still meets Cali emission standards. It was in C&D recently.

I've said my bit. Thanks for listening/reading.

*BRACES FOR IMPACT*
__________________
1992 LS-L Touring, Liquid Silver w/ Black, 110k mi. "Alice." Rebuilt title. Mods: WRX 6-CD changer, 17x8" Motegi LC-12 (16.5lbs), PWR rad, Perrin LCP, JDM v.8 6MT + R180, Koni + Ground Control (325f/280r), Earthworm Bushings. Awaiting resto.
1994 LSI The legendary "Shotgun Slade" 110k mi and still going strong!

2005 Outback XT Limited 5MT, Obsidian Black Pearl, 211k km, daily driver.
1999 Mazda MX5 base 5MT, Twilight Blue Metallic, 152k km. "Twilight Sparkle" Summer daily driver!
2007 Honda CR-V, some awful shade of light green *yawn*

1992 LS-L Touring, Ebony Mica, 176k kms. Parts car. SCRAPPED.
1992 LS-L, Dark Teal, 367k km. "Wintergreen" the winter beater.*SCRAPPED due to rust*
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 03-18-2008, 10:00 AM
svxistentialist's Avatar
svxistentialist svxistentialist is offline
Jersey Girl
Alcyone Gold Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Ireland
Posts: 8,270
Send a message via Skype™ to svxistentialist
Registered SVX
Thanks for that insight into the Ethanol industry, Chris, and I hope your Toxicology exam goes well, best of luck with it.

You are obviously studying the Environment Studies with a degree of passion, and you present your thesis in a passionate format that is not the norm with clinically detached scientists. BTW, I studied Science myself, and so consider myself a "scientist", at least in general approach. When a scientist puts forward a paper on some subject, it is actually the case that this paper is published in order that it can be challenged or tested by any peer group of professionals in the field. Nothing is considered a "fact" or proven until a number of professionals have replicated and agreed the research.

It would appear that your proposition that alcohol production is bad for the economy based on the production, storage and distribution that is applied. This is not the same thing as saying alcohol production for vehicle use is a bad thing per se. It is more that the application of it is being mis-handled.

The reason I say the above is because I have an agenda also. In my book, continued heavy use of finite and diminishing oil stocks is unsustainable, either from a moral standpoint, an economic stance or from a pollution perspective. Methods of propulsion that derive from renewable resources and have less negative impact on the ecological balance of the planet are more desirable, even if the unit of energy delivered is less than the specific output from oil, or even if the unit production cost is higher than that derived from oil stocks.

I think you can see also from my earlier post that I too agree with what Nemesis is saying. The US will never be free to set up a programme of efficient energy production from renewable resources while the Big Oil producers have their hands up the back of government puppets, and that runs all the way to the top in your present set-up. What you have just described about alcohol production sounds like a system that was put in place so that it would actually fail. Why would anybody set up a production system that is geared to fail? Well, ask yourself who gains most if it fails.

As for the effect of alcohol production on the economy, well, like any commodity production it will be subject to the principles of supply and demand, as you point out. This doesn't mean it can't work, because of course it can. If you do the maths concerning acres of crop required vs gallons of fuel delivered, it becomes obvious that ethanol could never replace the current fuel usage for the USA. Your present fuel usage is too high and too inefficient, and in extremis the fuel crops would displace too much food production and distort the food market.

It can only ever be regarded as a green [sustainable] method of supplying domestically a proportion of your energy requirements.

Thanks for your analysis Chris. Maybe with a new generation of passionate environmental scientists like you coming through the system, the US can settle down to seriously reducing usage, provide sustainable and enviro friendly energy sources, and in the process make your economy more efficient and stronger.

Joe
__________________
Black Betty [Bam a Lam!] '93 UK spec, still languishing Betty
Jersey Girl Silver '92 UK [Channel Isles] 40K Jersey Girl @ Mersea
Candy Purple Honda Blackbird Plum Dangerous
White X2 RVR Mitsubishi 1800GDI. Vantastic

40,000 miles Jersey Girl
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 03-18-2008, 02:54 PM
GreenMarine's Avatar
GreenMarine GreenMarine is offline
From POST-***** to LURKER
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 5,873
Thanks Joe, I totally agree with what you mentioned above... There is so much that needs to work together inorder to make a simple change to society... It's almost like one must have a knowledge of Politics, Psychology, Sociology, and Economics on top of whatever Science field that you study... I guess I just don't have the patience to deal with blatant stupidity, or people taking advantage of the lives of others inorder to make more money...

Anyway, I am hoping to get onboard with Alternate Energy companies... That was what I wanted to do when I was working on my Mechanical Engineering degree a few years ago. But now I think I'm alittle better suited with this degree field to work on alternate energy ... Just remember everyone... We have the technology and the resources RIGHT NOW to eliminate every single coal, oil, natural gas, and Nuclear power plant in the country. We could run the entire country on Solar, Wind and tidal power energy solutions... Why don't we? $$$... That is the only reason...

Oh no!!! There I go again... Must ... Shut... UP!!!...

Wheew, I've managed to take a breather there and stop thinking about... that stuff that gets on my nerves...

But yeah, I am very passionate about this stuff because for the most part it is a "Bad-news Science"... We discover the effects of our actions... We don't discover planets, or new theorys, or build new and amazing things... I think because of this alot of people think that we are just a bunch of irritated people running around trying to ruin their fun... Whatever... I'll probably write a book about some of this stuff someday. Just as soon as I can get my head on straight when I am writing and not spin off on a random tangent...

~ Chris
__________________
2020 Subaru Outback Touring - Wife's first Subaru
2005 Volvo V70R - 5-cylinder love! :Heart:

** SOLD **1998 Subaru Legacy 2.5GT Wagon - MOST RELIABLE car I've ever owned
** SOLD **2006Subaru WRXSTi (Former "Boxer4Racing.com / Continential Tire" STi) - Built EJ22t block / EJ207 JDM STi "big port heads" - 9,000rpm MONEY PIT!!!
** SOLD ** 1995 "Tree-Hugger Green" SVX L AWD(5 MT) --- "Gumby" 130K miles #399 in MY95, my original love...
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 03-18-2008, 10:02 PM
subi-crosser's Avatar
subi-crosser subi-crosser is offline
Now with more color
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: cumberland, md
Posts: 2,452
Send a message via Yahoo to subi-crosser
Registered SVX Classic SVX
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenMarineSVX View Post
Sorry to come off as a bit of an ass in my post above... It's just the stress of dealing with peoples opinions and ignorance towards chemistry and environmental issues is almost as bad as the stress I was under when I was in Aerospace and Mechanical Engineering...

If people would just believe that what we say is the truth and we say it because we care about each other, our children and the planet that we live on... I like teaching people about Environmental, Organic Chemistry / toxicological issues. I only ask that you don't blow me off like so many people have done to scientists in my field in the past... If you don't agree with what I present then tell me and present solid proof to back yours up and I will research it and let you know what I think (if it is BS or legit)...

Thanks

~ Chris
Chris,
I took no offence w the post. I am in the business of burning fuel and trying to get the most out of it.

You present a lot of valid points.(and do it well). I hope that one day, you will be in a position to actually USE the stuff you learned.

When I was in college a few DECADES ago, I actually helped a guy get a 3 hp Briggs to run on methane produced from potatos and pig $hit!!!

It was not MY project, but I helped. I also put the first solar pannels on the roof of the 'tech' building on campus, using one of MY projects. (an 8,000# cap FORKLIFT).

I read you post with great interest.


I composed an essay about the accomplishments of the big 3 during the 60's where big cars got 25 mpg, but the gnomes from big oil killed my connection before it could be posted.

It's too tired out to re-write it. I got 25 mpg with 4 different 'domestic' cars that weighed a LOT of pounds and you could see the engine and I LIKED driving them! WE should be getting 50 MPG on ALL cars with the advances we have made. I guess the money got in the way!!!

Jerry
__________________
I'm not a REDNECK! I am an Appalachian-AMERICAN!!

"Can't go to work today. The 'voices' said to "Stay home and clean the guns".


Most famous Red-Neck last words...
" Hey Everybody, Watch This!!)


http://s306.photobucket.com/albums/nn272/subi-crosser/
Jerry

Last edited by subi-crosser; 03-18-2008 at 10:37 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:55 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
© 2001-2015 SVX World Network
(208)-906-1122