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  #76  
Old 08-11-2013, 12:32 PM
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Re: OBDII Mt conversion???

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Originally Posted by TomsSVX View Post
Yes Key on is when the vehicle does an overall system readiness test. But system status is monitored throughout the ignition cycles and during "drive cycles" Drive cycles don't always have anything to do with key on but also relate to fuel used, heat cycles, hours running, and mileage. So it is an interactive process throughout the course of driving the vehicle.

In more modern vehicles you will find if an ecm is not programmed for the correct vin it will cause issue along the link. It is not something you can tamper with easily. Without all the manufacturers info about what is being broadcasted on the link, I find it "extremely unlikely" (not saying impossible in fear of a toddler's rage) that you will be able to reproduce any signal for the engine ECU to receive that will satisfy the communication.

Finding a good OBDII ECM writer who can take out the request from any TCM will likely be the best route

Tom
From what I can tell from the pinouts and wiring diagrams, there is only one additional diagnostic line between the ECU and TCU on the OBD2 cars. It goes to pin 80 on the ECU and is labled "AT diagnosis input signal". It could be poorly named but, if it isn't, it implies that this is a one-way signal from the TCU to the ECU.

Is it possible that the early OBD2 cars which still had SSMI didn't have the ECU-TCU diagnostic signals that were required of later OBD2 cars? In other words, was there a transition period where not all of the inter-computer networking signals were standardized or yet required to meet a new standard?
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1996 Polo Green Subaru SVX LSi, 168,XXX miles, Redline D4 ATF, Redline 75W90 gear oil, K&N HP-4001 Oil Filter, Mobil 1 5W50 FS (3qt) and 5W30 High Mileage (4qt) Oil Blend, Motul RBF600 Brake Fluid, AC Delco A975C Air Filter, NGK BKR6EIX-11 plugs, Centric Rotors, Power Stop Evolution Carbon Fiber Ceramic Brake Pads
2005 Gray Acura RL, 165,XXX miles, Redline D4 ATF with Lubegard Platinum Protectant, Mobil 1 5W20 High Mileage Extended Performance Oil
2009 Red Toyota Venza, 123,XXX, Mobil 1 5W30 High Mileage Oil
1992 Red Ferrari 348 ts, 82,XXX, Redline everything
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  #77  
Old 08-11-2013, 04:57 PM
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Re: OBDII Mt conversion???

Here is some data. I captured the data with the Fluke Scopemeter shown. The plot is of 13 sequential time frames overlaid on each other. As you can see, the signal is low speed and quite repetative. It wouldn't be difficult to make a small circuit that would replicate this signal. Someone with an OBD2 car with a 5 speed swap could inject this signal into the appropriate pin on the TCU connector (the one that leads to Pin 80 on the ECU) an see if the CEL stays away after being cleared.


Attached Images
File Type: jpg scope.jpg (224.5 KB, 628 views)
File Type: jpg Waveform.JPG (93.7 KB, 605 views)
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1996 Polo Green Subaru SVX LSi, 168,XXX miles, Redline D4 ATF, Redline 75W90 gear oil, K&N HP-4001 Oil Filter, Mobil 1 5W50 FS (3qt) and 5W30 High Mileage (4qt) Oil Blend, Motul RBF600 Brake Fluid, AC Delco A975C Air Filter, NGK BKR6EIX-11 plugs, Centric Rotors, Power Stop Evolution Carbon Fiber Ceramic Brake Pads
2005 Gray Acura RL, 165,XXX miles, Redline D4 ATF with Lubegard Platinum Protectant, Mobil 1 5W20 High Mileage Extended Performance Oil
2009 Red Toyota Venza, 123,XXX, Mobil 1 5W30 High Mileage Oil
1992 Red Ferrari 348 ts, 82,XXX, Redline everything
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  #78  
Old 08-11-2013, 05:27 PM
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Re: OBDII Mt conversion???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huskymaniac View Post
Here is some data. I captured the data with the Fluke Scopemeter shown. The plot is of 13 sequential time frames overlaid on each other. As you can see, the signal is low speed and quite repetative. It wouldn't be difficult to make a small circuit that would replicate this signal. Someone with an OBD2 car with a 5 speed swap could inject this signal into the appropriate pin on the TCU connector (the one that leads to Pin 80 on the ECU) an see if the CEL stays away after being cleared.
Ok, first, how would one go about "injecting" the signal into the ECU?

Second, do/can we know whether the signal that you read on the scope is enough to satisfy the ECU?

Let's keep the brainstorming going before momentum is lost.
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  #79  
Old 08-11-2013, 07:46 PM
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Re: OBDII Mt conversion???

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Originally Posted by icingdeath88 View Post
Ok, first, how would one go about "injecting" the signal into the ECU?

Second, do/can we know whether the signal that you read on the scope is enough to satisfy the ECU?

Let's keep the brainstorming going before momentum is lost.
I will answer your question with a question. I don't have a 5 speed swapped SVX nor have I ever looked at a wiring diagram for a manual Subaru. Is there any form of TCU for a manual? If there isn't, does the TCU connector just hang there when a 5 speed swap is done? If so, Pin 80 on the OBD2 ECU is connected to Pin 11 of connector 55 on the TCU and the signal could be injected into this pin on the open connector. Our circuit would generate the pattern I showed over and over again and the output would be connected to pin 11 of connector 55.

I have also never had a TCU throw a code (knock on wood). When the OBD2 cars have a TCU code, does the ATF warning light still flash in addition to the CEL coming on? If so, does it still flash out sequences corresponding to various TCU codes?
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1996 Polo Green Subaru SVX LSi, 168,XXX miles, Redline D4 ATF, Redline 75W90 gear oil, K&N HP-4001 Oil Filter, Mobil 1 5W50 FS (3qt) and 5W30 High Mileage (4qt) Oil Blend, Motul RBF600 Brake Fluid, AC Delco A975C Air Filter, NGK BKR6EIX-11 plugs, Centric Rotors, Power Stop Evolution Carbon Fiber Ceramic Brake Pads
2005 Gray Acura RL, 165,XXX miles, Redline D4 ATF with Lubegard Platinum Protectant, Mobil 1 5W20 High Mileage Extended Performance Oil
2009 Red Toyota Venza, 123,XXX, Mobil 1 5W30 High Mileage Oil
1992 Red Ferrari 348 ts, 82,XXX, Redline everything
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  #80  
Old 08-11-2013, 09:03 PM
Tireiron Tireiron is offline
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Re: OBDII Mt conversion???

On most other Subaru ECUs there is a pin that is either grounded or not to tell the ECU if it is a manual or auto setup, so they use the same ECU which of course saves in manufacturing costs. The 5MT cars do not have a TCU in them. This is based on the info from my 97 and 98 legacys and when i swapped auto to manual in the 98 using parts from the 97.
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  #81  
Old 08-12-2013, 06:23 PM
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Re: OBDII Mt conversion???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huskymaniac View Post
I will answer your question with a question. I don't have a 5 speed swapped SVX nor have I ever looked at a wiring diagram for a manual Subaru. Is there any form of TCU for a manual? If there isn't, does the TCU connector just hang there when a 5 speed swap is done? If so, Pin 80 on the OBD2 ECU is connected to Pin 11 of connector 55 on the TCU and the signal could be injected into this pin on the open connector. Our circuit would generate the pattern I showed over and over again and the output would be connected to pin 11 of connector 55.

I have also never had a TCU throw a code (knock on wood). When the OBD2 cars have a TCU code, does the ATF warning light still flash in addition to the CEL coming on? If so, does it still flash out sequences corresponding to various TCU codes?
That scan of the signal could better if you used a V range of 0 to 50V and a faster time base, to make the signal more readable.
Quote:
Our circuit would generate the pattern I showed over and over again and the output would be connected to pin 11 of connector 55
You can’t just keep sending that signal to the ECU. It will see it as a fault.

If that signal was taken, when the key is first turned on, then it consists of a ‘request’ and ‘reply’. You need to decipher it to see what part is the ECU’s request and what part is the TCU’s reply. You could do this by using a Data Logger to record the signal and put it in a graphic, as the TCU’s ‘all clear’ signal.
Then pull the front speed sensor, so that the TCU will report a fault to the ECU, log this signal, graphic it, and compare it with the ‘all clear’ signal to see which part is the ECU request and where the TCU reply starts.
As the first part will be the same, only the TCU's reply will change.
Once you have found the ‘all clear” reply, you can send it in, response to the ECU’s request.
This would probably need a Micro Chip, to look for the request and then send the ‘all clear’ response.

Harvey.
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  #82  
Old 08-12-2013, 06:56 PM
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Re: OBDII Mt conversion???

Do you know for a fact that this is a bi-directional line that operates as you say it does? Like I said earlier, the ECU pinout calls this line an "input" which implies it is one way. And the signal looks like it has a base frequency of 100Hz. That seems too low for a typical bi-directional data line. I was thinking it is more of a sequence like "data is coming", "start bit", "data", "stop bit". It could be even simpler. I have seen data links where a low speed signal is used to establish a connection and then it switches to higher baud rates. But that is not what this appears to be.
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1996 Polo Green Subaru SVX LSi, 168,XXX miles, Redline D4 ATF, Redline 75W90 gear oil, K&N HP-4001 Oil Filter, Mobil 1 5W50 FS (3qt) and 5W30 High Mileage (4qt) Oil Blend, Motul RBF600 Brake Fluid, AC Delco A975C Air Filter, NGK BKR6EIX-11 plugs, Centric Rotors, Power Stop Evolution Carbon Fiber Ceramic Brake Pads
2005 Gray Acura RL, 165,XXX miles, Redline D4 ATF with Lubegard Platinum Protectant, Mobil 1 5W20 High Mileage Extended Performance Oil
2009 Red Toyota Venza, 123,XXX, Mobil 1 5W30 High Mileage Oil
1992 Red Ferrari 348 ts, 82,XXX, Redline everything
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  #83  
Old 08-12-2013, 07:07 PM
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Re: OBDII Mt conversion???

If you look at what would happen. The ECU has to interrogate all the cars units, by request, they all can't just send their reports together. It has to be a bi-directional line.
The ECU calls all units in turn, and they reply.

Harvey.
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  #84  
Old 08-13-2013, 01:08 PM
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Re: OBDII Mt conversion???

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Originally Posted by oab_au View Post
If you look at what would happen. The ECU has to interrogate all the cars units, by request, they all can't just send their reports together. It has to be a bi-directional line.
The ECU calls all units in turn, and they reply.

Harvey.
I don't know why but I will respond to this. The line in question is only running between the TCU and ECU. It does not connect to the ABS, Cruise or climate control computers. Therefore, it does not need to be bi-directional. The SSM lines are the ones that network these OBD2 computers together and the SSM link is indeed bi-directional. Also, if the ECU only has one thing to say to the TCU, which is "what is your status?", and it wanted to know this status on a very regular basis, why would it need to say anything? All of the critical parameters for operation are sent on dedicated lines (MAF, TPS, RPM, the ALL IMPORTANT TORQUE CUT and others). The only thing missing from OBD1 TCUs is their ability to send error codes back to the ECU. So why not think it is possible that the TCU is only sending error codes over this line?

I think it would be helpful to present opinions and assumptions as such and facts as such so as not to confuse people and cloud the subject. Too many assumptions are framed as known facts.
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1996 Polo Green Subaru SVX LSi, 168,XXX miles, Redline D4 ATF, Redline 75W90 gear oil, K&N HP-4001 Oil Filter, Mobil 1 5W50 FS (3qt) and 5W30 High Mileage (4qt) Oil Blend, Motul RBF600 Brake Fluid, AC Delco A975C Air Filter, NGK BKR6EIX-11 plugs, Centric Rotors, Power Stop Evolution Carbon Fiber Ceramic Brake Pads
2005 Gray Acura RL, 165,XXX miles, Redline D4 ATF with Lubegard Platinum Protectant, Mobil 1 5W20 High Mileage Extended Performance Oil
2009 Red Toyota Venza, 123,XXX, Mobil 1 5W30 High Mileage Oil
1992 Red Ferrari 348 ts, 82,XXX, Redline everything

Last edited by Huskymaniac; 08-14-2013 at 07:27 AM.
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  #85  
Old 08-13-2013, 01:30 PM
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Re: OBDII Mt conversion???

Is it not also possible that the ECU is sending a signal to the TCU, throwing a CEL if the connection is open (i.e., no TCU present)? It could be that something as simple as a resistor and either ground or static voltage would clean this up quickly.

EDIT: Regarding keeping the TCU in the car and connected to the ECU: <sl-i.net post> That may be worth something or nothing?
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Last edited by LetItSnow; 08-13-2013 at 02:12 PM.
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  #86  
Old 08-13-2013, 05:16 PM
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Re: OBDII Mt conversion???

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Originally Posted by Huskymaniac View Post
I don't know why but I will respond to this.

Well mate you have obversely got it all worked out and under control. So we should see you doing this soon.

I'll leave you with it.
Harvey.
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  #87  
Old 08-13-2013, 07:52 PM
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Re: OBDII Mt conversion???

One other thing to consider is that this wouldn't just help OBD2 folks with a manual swap but it could also open the door for using OBD1 TCUs with OBD2 ECUs. A couple of other wires need to be swapped to make it work but, if it does, there would be no CEL and everyone could use LAN's TCU. That would be much better than the tranny destroying alternatives that are out there...clicking...like a time bomb.
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1996 Polo Green Subaru SVX LSi, 168,XXX miles, Redline D4 ATF, Redline 75W90 gear oil, K&N HP-4001 Oil Filter, Mobil 1 5W50 FS (3qt) and 5W30 High Mileage (4qt) Oil Blend, Motul RBF600 Brake Fluid, AC Delco A975C Air Filter, NGK BKR6EIX-11 plugs, Centric Rotors, Power Stop Evolution Carbon Fiber Ceramic Brake Pads
2005 Gray Acura RL, 165,XXX miles, Redline D4 ATF with Lubegard Platinum Protectant, Mobil 1 5W20 High Mileage Extended Performance Oil
2009 Red Toyota Venza, 123,XXX, Mobil 1 5W30 High Mileage Oil
1992 Red Ferrari 348 ts, 82,XXX, Redline everything
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  #88  
Old 08-13-2013, 07:59 PM
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Re: OBDII Mt conversion???

Nice to see all the positive contributions, the brainstorming is great! I have two requests on data about the signal that may shed additional light on the TCU/ECU signal.

1) What happens when the car is being driven? Assuming the pics below were taken only at start-up and idle. WOT? Extreme vacuum, as in heavy braking? Or a presumed downshift, expected by TCU based on TPS change, etc.?

2) What signal would be sent if a trans sensor is unplugged (any distinct change in pattern frequency, wavelength duration)?

3)Can other circuits be plugged in here from existing pins on the harness for alternative purposes?

Can we see a few more combinations of ECU inputs? I know it may require a bit of work, but think of the poor OBD2 owners...
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  #89  
Old 08-14-2013, 07:23 AM
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Re: OBDII Mt conversion???

It would also be interesting to see the signal with the torque converter locked vs unlocked and during shifting when the torque reduction thing would happen... if that's when it is?
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  #90  
Old 08-14-2013, 07:33 AM
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Re: OBDII Mt conversion???

I was pressed for time so I tried to grab something as quickly as possible. It is certainly possible to get a better connection and drive the car while capturing waveforms. I think it is also safe to disconnect the dropping resistor to generate a code so I can see what effect that has. But I won't drive the car with it like that. I will just see if the waveform is different at startup. I just don't know when I will be able to get to it. It is a PITA to get under there and the wiring is dense and difficult to manage.

If anyone has a manual swap in an OBD2 car and wants to try this out to get rid of the CEL, I am willing to program a chip with the waveform and hook it up.

Has anyone with an OBD2 car had the TCU throw a code? If so, can you tell me if the ATF temp light flashes like it does on the OBD1 cars to indicate there is a problem or does just the CEL come on?
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1996 Polo Green Subaru SVX LSi, 168,XXX miles, Redline D4 ATF, Redline 75W90 gear oil, K&N HP-4001 Oil Filter, Mobil 1 5W50 FS (3qt) and 5W30 High Mileage (4qt) Oil Blend, Motul RBF600 Brake Fluid, AC Delco A975C Air Filter, NGK BKR6EIX-11 plugs, Centric Rotors, Power Stop Evolution Carbon Fiber Ceramic Brake Pads
2005 Gray Acura RL, 165,XXX miles, Redline D4 ATF with Lubegard Platinum Protectant, Mobil 1 5W20 High Mileage Extended Performance Oil
2009 Red Toyota Venza, 123,XXX, Mobil 1 5W30 High Mileage Oil
1992 Red Ferrari 348 ts, 82,XXX, Redline everything
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