Electrical Quandary

[Trevor]

Many thanks,

This is important information and it was well worth the time setting it all down. But and a very big BUT, it is not good news to know that a stupid mod artiste has mean playing havoc. Damn it, he could have screwed anything and everything up.

[Nomake Wan]

I guess the fortunate part is that it runs, drives and operates fine. Lights not working right is somewhat annoying, but it's not blowing fuses and losing any more lights, so it's not affecting driveability.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by ItsPeteReally

This may seem a silly question but .........

What effect does the panel lighting rheostat have?

This is not a silly question and it should be answered. i.e. does it work properly, or has the silly previous owner tapped in an extra load and burnt it out.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by Nomake Wan

I guess the fortunate part is that it runs, drives and operates fine. Lights not working right is somewhat annoying, but it's not blowing fuses and losing any more lights, so it's not affecting driveability.

I have now put together all the clues you have provided and leave you to do a single test to confirm my thinking so far. I am working from diagrams covering the Australian version of the car, but there have been no indications that the basics of the wiring differ. Check out this screed, which includes extracts from your posts, and advise on anything I may have wrongly interpreted. -----

Door lock circiuit is permanently energised. ( OK It should be )

Back lighting in gauge cluster does not work.

There is a strange power loss which dims headlights when the turn signals are operated and in sync with the flashing rate.
N. B. The loss is only apparent when the headlights and associated lights are switched "ON". Please confirm this vital point.

Standing currents all appear normal.

What doesn't work:
"on" light on defrosters (side mirror/rear window), "on" light on parking light, "on" light on security switch, security switch, sun visor lights, instrument panel backlights, backlights for every single switch (what lights up the text on every single panel including the center console and gearshift)

When I popped the hood I found that the 10A fuse in the main fuse box for the clock was blown. Now, I had just replaced this fuse two weeks earlier (with all the other fuses) because the ones that were in the boxes were the wrong ratings.

You should've seen what the wiring looked like before I had a go at the fuse boxes. Someone had removed the cover to the fuse box in the cabin so they could splice wires DIRECTLY into some fuses. I didn't note which fuses were being abused, I just yanked the wires out and replaced the fuses with new ones.

Getting rid of all the trashy wiring didn't solve the draw or short problems. In any event, the mess is gone and the radio cage is in. It doesn't fit. Oh well.Getting rid of all the trashy wiring didn't solve the draw or short problems.

ALL of the backlights do not work. This includes the instrument panel, and every single button on the dashboard and center console.

The only lights that DO work are most of the "ON" lights in the switches, the warning lights on the dash and the gear indicator light in the instrument panel.

I already cut the visor wires (they were indeed worn out, but fixing them didn't solve my current draw problem) to rule that out.

As said before, the hazard lights do not cause this effect anymore. Not since I cleaned the battery tirminals and the loom connectors.

The rate of flashing isn't abnormal

Car runs okay... save for lack of lights and the turn signal thing. I don't think the battery is draining anymore,

I notice a power drain while driving the car as soon as I turn on the turn signals...

I had the radio do some weird stuff when I went over a bump in the road today (and the trim needs to be moved anyway) so it's due to be inspected.

The rear of the dash switch assemblies all looked fine.

I also tried replacing the flasher unit. All that did was alter my flash pattern, not fix the strange power loss when the turn signals come on. The wiring for the flasher unit is all intact and good too, so the flasher unit's out too.

Which just leaves the turn signal stalk, or wiring from the under-hood fuse box.

The power loss is exactly when the flasher comes ON, and power returns to normal when the flasher turns OFF. However the power does not fluctuate when the Hazard switch is turned on. To further clarify:

the headlights/running lights operate at normal brilliance provided the flashers are not engaged. "Power Loss" occurs with use of the turn signals, and only affects lamps which are actually "on."

It pulses with the flashers. It is not constant to activation of the stalk.

I reset my multimeter to the Amps range, then turned the ignition switch on so I could use the flashers. Activating either flasher resulted in almost NO CHANGE in the amperage. Since I'm in the Amps range, I couldn't be exact, but the change looked minute (when I initially turned on the flashers, it raised from 00.03 to 00.04, but after they were on for a bit it remained 00.03).

I have had these problems since day one. It would appear that the previous owner either had these problems as well since his day one, or the problems occurred while it was in his possession.


Conclusions:-

The flasher unit is voltage rather than current triggered, therefore flashing rate will not be affected by a down stream overcurrent fault.

The fault occurs only when the flasher circuit is switched via the turn signal selector.

The turn signal switch forms part of the suspect circuit but could only create a direct short or bridged circuit. It selects and operates OK.

Power is sourced via fuses FB-5 No 22 and FB-26 No 1.

Fuse board FB-5 is supplied with permanent battery power, and via 15 amp fuse No 22, supplies flasher trigger voltage and lamp voltage for the Hazard system, via the Hazard switch, when the ignition is “off”.

FB-26 is powered only when the ignition switch is turned to "On", and via 15 amp fuse No 1, supplies trigger voltage for the flasher and lamps via the turn switch, only when the ignition is ”On”.

Therefore the fault current appears to be delivered via fuse No 1. and is apparently confined within the associated circuits which it protects.

Tests:-

Remove fuse link No 1, and check with an ammeter (not milli amps), for the unwanted load, turn signal selected, with headlights on and off. Advise results as a means of confirming the above diagnoses. This will enable the us proceed with certainty on the right track.

[Nomake Wan]

I will perform the test you ask. However, I need to make some clarifications on the parts of my messages you quoted.

1.) The "strange thing" with the radio was the radio fuse in the driver's kick panel coming loose. My brother had apparently not pushed it back in all the way. Putting it back in fixed the odd radio event.

2.) Correction on lights that work/don't work: The parking light and rear defroster "ON" lights DO work. The mirror defroster "ON" light does not. Also, I am unable to say whether the security switch works or not since the security module has been removed from my car. Without the module, the switch is useless.

3.) Somehow I think you're linking the headlights with the turn signals. The headlights are not the only items to dim when the turn signal comes on. This effect can be seen during the day via the gear indicator light and any warning lights in the instrument panel--when you activate the turn signal, the panel lights dim in sequence with the flash pattern. At night, those lights as well as the cigarette-lighter-powered lights and headlights dim in sequence with the flash pattern.

4.) On the rheostat, am I to inspect it now?

Time to go run a test.

[Nomake Wan]

And the results from the new test:

Just turning the ignition switch to "on" raised the meter from 00.00 A to 0.042 A.

As soon as the turn signals were activated, the meter went crazy, exactly as it had with the hazard switch on the previous test.

Hopefully this result means you've pinned down the location of the fault?

[Trevor]

The small current delivered via fuse No 1, when the ignition is turned to on is normal and will be flasher standing current.

The intermittent crazy indication is also expected, as the flasher switches/flashes the lamps. What we still do not know is whether the current drain is normal or abnormal, to the extent that line voltage might be pulled down. Refer (3) below.

I continue to work on the fact that "pulsing loss of power" occurs ONLY when the turn signals are operating, but does NOT occur when the Hazard lights are operated, as this is what you have previously indicated.
(1) Please confirm that my assumption is correct.

As I understand it, when the turn lights flash ON, other lighting dims, then returns to normal when the turn lights are in the OFF stages of the flashing cycle.
(2) This sequence is important. Please confirm.

(3). Remove the flasher and bridge with a wire link or whatever, its socket No 1, which should have a white/red wire attached, and No. 3 yellow/blue wire. Do not bridge to No 2, black wire and ground, or you will cause a short and blow a fuse.

This will provide a continuos voltage to otherwise flashed lamps, when either the turn signal switch or hazard switch are operated and will enable you to secure a constant current reading at fuse socket No 1. Get it?

Report back on the three current readings. Left, right and hazard selected. Hazard should be double left or right turn signal .

P.S. Also note as to whether the lights which dim intermittently when the flasher is in circuit, dim continuously and also adise on this.

You must be getting the hang of the fault tracing as we go along.

[Nomake Wan]

Yeah, it's getting easier to see where you're going. Wouldn't have thought of bridging the flasher unit though.

1.) I observe the dash lights clearly dimming when turn signal is used, but do not observe the same phenomena with the hazards on. I will check one more time and look very, very closely to see if there is any dimming going on with the hazards.

2.) You assume correctly.

3.) Will run test and get back to you.

[Trevor]

OK, and going well. Note that I have added a P.S. to my previous post. A tiny little bit of more work for you.

[Nomake Wan]

Hahaha, figured that on the PS.

Also, here is what I have found in regards to the hazard switch:

I just tested it again. The reason I said it had not dimmed anything before was that I always tested during the day, and sitting back in the seat. This is early morning and I leaned close. The dimming does, in fact, happen in the same pattern as the flashers. However, the AMOUNT of dimming is much, much less pronounced than with activating a turn signal.

It does dim the same exact things, though. Just not as much.

Unfortunately, I am almost out of energy. I will have to conduct the ammeter test once I am well-rested. I shall keep you posted, as always.

[Trevor]

Try to treat the exercise as fun, interesting and educational. The alternative would have been to pull half the car apart to physically examine everything.

It is now becoming apparent that neither wiring to, or the flashed lamps are at fault. I now am suspecting the wiring to or from the flasher and turn signal switch, but it is difficult to accept that this could involve a partial short circuit. The next possibility is the that the fuse box connections have been messed up, particularly as you advised that there had been direct connections to fuses in evidence.

The important thing is not to jump to conclusions and rule out the obvious first off.

After you bridge the flasher connections so that the lamps will illuminate continuously, check the voltage at the circuits which go dim, and bright, so as to measure the voltage drop and confirm your visual observations.

[Nomake Wan]

It rained today. Sadly I had my windows open so it's a little wet on the doors. Bah.

Test the circuits with the voltage drop? What circuit do the indicator lights (e-brake, check engine, etc + gear indicator) use? And the cigarette lighter?

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by Nomake Wan

It rained today. Sadly I had my windows open so it's a little wet on the doors. Bah.

Test the circuits with the voltage drop? What circuit do the indicator lights (e-brake, check engine, etc + gear indicator) use? And the cigarette lighter?

I am not suggesting that you check everything. That mainly of interest is the voltage at the headlights. One easy way to make a connection, is to stick a thin pin/needle right through the appropriate insulated wire, so that you can tap your meter in against ground for a voltage reading. There will be no significant damage to the insulated wire.

When you have finished all of this, you will be able to design and construct an automatic system, so that when a sensor detects moisture, any open windows are closed. Not a difficult technical exercise.

[Trevor]

A further thought ---- Please read the data in my locker covering testing for voltage drop, as this could prove of assistance to you.

[Nomake Wan]

I have performed the tests you requested. I apologize for the delay in getting these results.

As to removing the flasher and crossing the circuit so the lamps would remain on, I retrieved the following results as to current draw (ammeter in Amps range):

(Fuse 1) Turn Signal, Either Direction: 3.71 A
(Hazard Fuse Under Hood) Hazard: 7.40 A

I was also able to register a drop in voltage from the cigarette lighter circuit when the turn signals were engaged. I used this method instead of the pin-in-headlight-wiring as it was easier. Activating a turn signal caused the voltage to drop by 0.3 volts. Activating the hazard circuit caused the voltage to drop by 0.1 volts.

Hopefully this will clear things up so that I won't have to jack into Fuse 1 anymore... I tell you, using my primitive probes in Fuse 1 is a lesson in patience and precision.

As for designing a moisture-sensitive window mechanism... sure, but wouldn't that drain even more power when the car is off? Let's fix the problem at hand before putting any more stress on the electrics, hahahaha.