Question: Legacy Turbo in an SVX?

[huck369]

Originally Posted by svxsubaru1

So does that mean it fun or not, ?

That means it IS fun

[SilverSpear]

[QUOTE=Darksied-X]Of course a turbo Boxer6 exists, but it resides in the B11S, and probably a couple other concepts, but nothing production.

Darksied i mean aftermarket H-6 turbo engine, not one developed by subaru itself, but rather some private firm in Japan. There must exist a turbo SVX there done privately...

[svxsubaru1]

[QUOTE=SilverSpear]

Originally Posted by Darksied-X

Of course a turbo Boxer6 exists, but it resides in the B11S, and probably a couple other concepts, but nothing production.

Darksied i mean aftermarket H-6 turbo engine, not one developed by subaru itself, but rather some private firm in Japan. There must exist a turbo SVX there done privately...

Theres a couple, and ones on this board.

I didnet know subaru right now was so poor that they couldent affrod the r and d of turbocharging a engine.

[SilverSpear]

Subaru is the smallest manufacturer of cars in Japan. but they are professionals in AWD cars... but in Japan, there are private firms who tune up cars even to become very illegal for use. I bet there is a turbo SVX or even a Twin Turbo SVX exists somewhere over there...

[svxsubaru1]

Originally Posted by SilverSpear

Subaru is the smallest manufacturer of cars in Japan. but they are professionals in AWD cars... but in Japan, there are private firms who tune up cars even to become very illegal for use. I bet there is a turbo SVX or even a Twin Turbo SVX exists somewhere over there...

I know Subaru is small, but they still sell what like 500,000 vehicles world wide, they should have develepment money.

[drivemusicnow]

Originally Posted by Tofu

"I guess were going to have to wait and see, maybe subaru going to bore and store it out like 3.6 liters and have a 310 hp NA 6, that would cool or even better yet a NA H8, with 350 hp."

As noted, Subaru is pretty short on cash. The current four cylinder engines are essentially fifteen years old, and based on designs that date back even further. The current six cylinder would have been a dog had it not been for their licensing Porsche's variable valve lift technology. GM is currently investing quite a bit of money in Cadillac and Saturn, not to mention the $1.5 billion they just paid Fiat to not buy them, and the first two GM subsidiaries that are feeling the pinch are Subaru and Saab. An enlargement of the current EZ30R seems pretty probably sometime down the road, and turbocharging it remains a possibility, but at some point Subaru is going to need to either give up on using horizontally opposed engines, get a huge cash infusion, or both, and niether is going to be likely in the next few years.

the current 4 cyl?? the 2.5 turbo that they're putting in almost everything now is actually new. also, subaru is NOT a subsidiary of GM. they are partially, (20% i believe) owned by GM. Subaru is still growing quite significantly. compared to 20 years ago, when they were making and designing engines, they are much better off. They won't ditch the boxer because of the marketing nightmare that would bring, not to mention the consequences to the AWD system that would entail.

however i don't doubt them trying to introduce a new line of cars under the impreza to be "cash cars", while at the same time releasing a high end "flagship" i don't know whether they are going to try and use this SUV as their "flagship" but i sure as hell hope they don't. releasing a 350 esqu sports car with a turbo boxer 6 would bring a LOT of attention, and interest to the subaru brand... however it would have to be able to not only compete with these other cars, it would have to blow them away.

GM has a controlling interest in Subaru. That means that, despite the percentages, GM effectively owns Subaru, since their decisions cannot be vetoed by the minority members of the board.

The current 2.5 is very much a version of the EJ25# and EJ25D engines that preceded it. Despite the marketing hype, it is not "all new". While many of the parts are new, the basic architecture of the engine dates back almost twenty years. Engine architecture plays a much larger role in the limitations of an engine design then engine parts, as Porsche is now dealing with - their current flat six is finally at the end of it's useful development cycle.

As much as enthusiasts would like to see any manufacturer, and especially their chosen fanboy marque, make a high-performance halo car, it is very unlikely Subaru will do so. There isn't a whole lot of money to be made, and the SVX, despite being one of the best cars of the '90s, almost killed Subaru. There's a lot more money to be made in selling vehicles the average person wants to buy then in selling vehicles the minority car-obsessed enthusiast demographic wants to buy.

[SVXtasy]

God I love the SVX forums (lol) if you posted this crap on NASIOC you would get flamed to no end. so funny (lol)

Which part is crap?

The (true) part about GM owning a controlling stake in Suabru?
The (true) part about the 2.5 using the same engine architecture as the old EJ25# and EJ25D?
The (true) part about halo cars rarely being moneymakers?
The (true) part about the SVX being a big money loser for Subaru?
The (true) part about the majority of the people who actually buy cars, as opposed to dream about them not heading out in droves to buy two door sports cars?
The (supposition) that Subaru is not likely to sell another purebred top-shelf sports car as a halo car?

And from the time I've been on NASIOC, I would generally feel that being flamed would mean I was right.

[mbtoloczko]

Originally Posted by Tofu

...

As noted, Subaru is pretty short on cash. The current four cylinder engines are essentially fifteen years old, and based on designs that date back even further. The current six cylinder would have been a dog had it not been for their licensing Porsche's variable valve lift technology. GM is currently investing quite a bit of money in Cadillac and Saturn, not to mention the $1.5 billion they just paid Fiat to not buy them, and the first two GM subsidiaries that are feeling the pinch are Subaru and Saab. An enlargement of the current EZ30R seems pretty probably sometime down the road, and turbocharging it remains a possibility, but at some point Subaru is going to need to either give up on using horizontally opposed engines, get a huge cash infusion, or both, and niether is going to be likely in the next few years.

I don't understand why Subaru is either going to have to give up the horizontally opposed motor or get a huge cash infusion, presumably to somehow completely redesign horizontally opposed motor. What you have posted so far suggests that these motors are somehow inefficient, or uneconomical to build, or too old, or something. You mention that the EZ30R motor would have been a "dog" had it not been for variable valve timing. I'm a bit perplexed by this. So what if they licensed the variable valve timing techology (rather than devising it on their own). Bottom line is that the EZ30R motor has an excellent powerband and a MEP value that matches or excedes any high performance NA motor on the road. Heck, the EG33 has a MEP that is only a few percent lower than the 350z motor. Just because the basic design of a motor was conceived 20 years ago doesn't mean its no longer a useful design. Perhaps you meant that there was some other reason why Subaru either need to bail on the H motor or get a large cash infusion.

"I don't understand why Subaru is either going to have to give up the horizontally opposed motor or get a huge cash infusion, presumably to somehow completely redesign horizontally opposed motor. What you have posted so far suggests that these motors are somehow inefficient, or uneconomical to build, or too old, or something."

As engine architecture ages, they approach the useful limitations of a particular design. A good case in point is Mitsubishi's 6G V6 family, which dates back to 1985. The current 3.5L and 3.8L versions of this engine are inefficient in terms of both power and economy, and unrefined when compared to the competition. Hyundai/Kia, who's own V6 engine family is based on the 6G design, also suffer the same drawbacks. At some point, a redesign and/or clean sheet approach is necessary to restart the useful lifespan of an engine family.

Notably, there are exceptions, or there appear to be: GM's smallblock V8 for instance, or their smallblock derived V6 family. Despite the fact that today's smallblock is very different then one from thirty years ago, they still share a couple core elements. On the other hand, how many times has the 60 degree GM V6 been slammed for being old, inefficient, and appealing only to car owners too stupid to know or care what's under the hood in the first place? Not to mention that it is now in the process of being phased out in favor of, wait for it, newer, better, more efficient designs.

The simple truth is that the basic 2.5 is an old design. It is also more expensive to build then a convential engine, simply due to the split block casting. I can tell you that where I work, none of the Subaru engines except the Justy's inline-3 can be built on a normal assembly line, and essentially have to be built by hand. While that is not true for Subaru's own engine factory, the simple fact of the matter is that two block castings cost more then one, and joining two block castings costs more then not joining them. One of the reasons the DOHC heads were replaced with SOHC heads was due to the cost and complexity of having four cams versus two, like most four cylinder engines. Cost and complexity, just like Mazda's Wankel. There are reasons they may be superior to conventional engine layouts, but they both come with an added price.

"You mention that the EZ30R motor would have been a "dog" had it not been for variable valve timing. I'm a bit perplexed by this. So what if they licensed the variable valve timing techology (rather than devising it on their own). Bottom line is that the EZ30R motor has an excellent powerband and a MEP value that matches or excedes any high performance NA motor on the road. Heck, the EG33 has a MEP that is only a few percent lower than the 350z motor."

Without Porsche's trick variable lift system, the EZ30R would have been another big, low-revving, low output engine. The excellent powerband is almost entirely due to the licensed Variocam Plus technology, as is the excellent specific power output. Consider, too, that a convential EZ30R, which would have made maybe 200-210bhp, would still be going into the same big, heavy vehicles the EZ30R is being installed in, without the benefit of that excellent flexible powerband, or the additional horses. I wouldn't consider it much of a stretch that without Variocam Plus, it would not have impressed too many people (except maybe rampant Subaru fanboys).

"Just because the basic design of a motor was conceived 20 years ago doesn't mean its no longer a useful design. "

That's true. Some engines are legendary for their basic longevity - the aforementioned Chevy smallblock, obviously. The 215 Buick/Rover V8. The original Porsche flat six. Lamborghini's V12. The Teddy Marek-designed Aston Martin 5.3 V8. Without counting engines that never changed simply because the cars they powered never did (Beetle, 2CV, Mini, etc.), there's many, many more engine families that never see twenty years as a useful design life. Of the examples listed, the Aston, Lamborghini, and Rover engines lasted as long as they did simply because there was no money to replace them. And even after all that, change was still eventually necessary. The smallblock Chevy shares almost nothing with it's predecessors. The smallblock Ford was replaced by the Triton V8. The Rover V8 sees life only in a handful of boutique automakers. Lamborghini's V12 will be supplanted by the new V10, or a 12 cylinder derivation of such.

"Perhaps you meant that there was some other reason why Subaru either need to bail on the H motor or get a large cash infusion."

Reality is the only reason. The reality of the economies of scale, the reality of how the global auto business works. Designing a new engine is the single most expensive cost of designing a new car, and sometimes, those costs are staggering: Ford is legendary for having spent $6 billion to develop the Contour/Mystique/Mondeo triplets, and a lot of that development money was for the Duratec engine family. Although Porsche has been very successful with the new V8 in the Cayenne, the cost of developing a V8 for the stillborn 989 sedan nearly bankrupted the company in the late '80s and early '90s. Not to mention that the development costs for the Cayenne's V8 were shared this time around with Volkswagen, which alleviated a lot of the financial pressure of a clean sheet engine design.

It isn't just small manufacturers like Porsche, either. DaimlerChrysler, Mitsubishi, and Hyundai collaborated on the next generation of small four cylinders, and it wasn't because all three companies love each other, it was to spread that high development cost. Strategic partnership, platform sharing, and join ventures are the name of the game for the mainstream car industry. For Subaru to develop truly new engines, they will either have to do it in a joint venture or through plucking GM's corporate parts bin, which means giving up the boxer design, or spending a lot of money they don't currently have to develop new ones.

I like Subarus. I think the SVX is one of the best pure car designs in the world, despite the well-known and expensive maladies. I love the new Legacy. The reality of the car business doesn't care about that though. Just liking the cars doesn't magically make the current 2.5 a great engine, or influence Subaru to make an ass-kicking sports car again, or make them think a 350bhp turbo flat six would be a great engine for an SUV, crossover, station wagon, or mommymobile. Liking the brand doesn't magically mean all their money problems are solved, or that they suddenly make the best cars in the world. Of course, liking the cars won't stop me from getting flamed apparently either, but that's life.

[black beast]

Did anyonbe see the new legacy in the comercials, with the boxer engine? It says in the tube that it is a turbo, but I don't know how many cylinders it is, I don't know much about theses things so someone correct me but is the boxer a six cyl, all around or is there a 4 cyl one? if so then its a 4 cyl turbo, and I talked for no reason

[huck369]

Originally Posted by black beast

Did anyonbe see the new legacy in the comercials, with the boxer engine? It says in the tube that it is a turbo, but I don't know how many cylinders it is, I don't know much about theses things so someone correct me but is the boxer a six cyl, all around or is there a 4 cyl one? if so then its a 4 cyl turbo, and I talked for no reason

All Subaru engines are a boxer design (horizontally opposed cylinders) except the Just 3 cylinder engine (which wasn't really a Subaru engine anyway)

And the New Turbo Legacy is the 2.5liter 4-cylinder Turbo engine

[svxsubaru1]

Originally Posted by Tofu

GM has a controlling interest in Subaru. That means that, despite the percentages, GM effectively owns Subaru, since their decisions cannot be vetoed by the minority members of the board.

I never knew that, it really scares me that subaru wuold let that happen.

I aggre that Subaru dosent have all the money in the world to spend on R&D, but turbocharging the EZ30 shoulden't take that much money to do, compared to making a new engine from scratch.

Maybe subaru needs to team up with porsche then on the devopement of a new engine familey

[Weebitob]

Originally Posted by drivemusicnow

however i don't doubt them trying to introduce a new line of cars under the impreza to be "cash cars", while at the same time releasing a high end "flagship" i don't know whether they are going to try and use this SUV as their "flagship" but i sure as hell hope they don't. releasing a 350 esqu sports car with a turbo boxer 6 would bring a LOT of attention, and interest to the subaru brand... however it would have to be able to not only compete with these other cars, it would have to blow them away.

They already have a "cash car" or lower price tier than Impreza model in Japan, it was the Vivio, more recently Pleo and currently the R1 plus R2. The real question is whether these cars will eventually come out in the US or not. Since the question lies in if people want these type of ecno boxes here (you don't see many Xbs or Aerios on the road do you) and it might alienate the public since these models don't come with AWD standard plus they use an I4 rather than a boxer. Subaru is right now walking on a tight line trying to grow their brand without alienating their current consumers and thus the public too much by slowly up scaling the brand ever so slightly, so since they released the B9 Tribeca it didn't throw people too off not to mention amble pre-press release time and if they ever make another SVXeque sports car they won't throw people off even more.

Originally Posted by SilverSpear

Subaru is the smallest manufacturer of cars in Japan. but they are professionals in AWD cars... but in Japan, there are private firms who tune up cars even to become very illegal for use. I bet there is a turbo SVX or even a Twin Turbo SVX exists somewhere over there...

I always thought Daihatsu is the smallest Japanese car company. They only sell in Japan and pretty much only officially import their convertible, the Copen, to the UK in limited quantities from what I know.