SMOG.. . DeAtH!

[James Scott]

Guys (There aren't any GaLs here are there? Gals too, of course!): I'm getting toward the end of my road.. . My 1995 SVX AWD L is about to be retired abruptly here in California due to smog restrictions. . . If someone doesn't help soon!

I smogged twice.. had high HC at idle twice 170 then 265.. . with the max allowable being 100. [Other stats good]

After changing both O2 sensors to no avail, I thot the only possibility is to change the back cat, but one says do it.. .the next says the SMOG TEST stats don't indicate needing a catalytic converter???

1) Does anyone know if you can read the SMOG STATS and get an idea of cat function? The last smog guy said he doesn't think it needs cat(s) because the CO dropped so low at high idle (two idle test).. . down to .02 (from .06 at low idle) in the first failed test.. . and down to .01 (from .23 at low idle) in the second failed test (?). He says "if it works at high idle (all numbers passed at high idle), then the cat(s) should work at low idle, where the cat is cleaning less exhaust!" [So, he says it must be a tuneup issue.. . But I replaced plugs last year with OEM platinum NGK plugs (18,000 miles ago), changed oil with Mobil 1 synthetic (10/30?) about two months (3,000 miles) ago, ran Techron and other engine/injector cleaners, and cleaned/oiled my K&N air filter! He insisted I replace my plugs with non-platinum cheap Champion (#346) plugs.. and come back, before anything else!]

2) So, does the plug thing make any sense? [cheap, non-plat Champion?]

3) Can I run a hot plug (regular or NGK plat?) that would lower my idle HC's?

4) The muffler (cat) guy says the smog guy can tell (from ECU lead?) exactly which cat(s) needs replacement. When I go there, he says plugs..not cats! Others say the muffler guys can check the cats temp before and after. When I'm there, they say it only finds pressure (clogged) problems (?). Is there any objective and reasonable way to check cats?

5) Is there any way to analyze the specific smog stats to diagnose the necessary fix?

SMOG STATS: [first test scores on top of second test scores]

***RPM CO2 *O2 HCMax HCAve HCMeas **COMax*COAve *COMeas * Results
Idle 614 14.1 * 0.3 100 ***17*** 170 ****1.00 **0.00 ***0.23 **** *Fail
Idle 612 13.5 * 1.1 100 *[GP=250] 265 *** 1.00 *[GP=2.5] *0.06 **** GrossPolluter
IDLE 601 14.70 0.0 100 ***17***** 6 *** 1.00 **0.00 *** 0.01 ****PASS

High 2556 14.2 0.4 130 ***12 *** 29*** *1.00 ** 0.10 *** 0.01** ** Pass
High 2443 13.5 1.2 130 *[GP=280] 55 * ** 1.00 * [GP=2.5]* 0.02 ** ** Pass
HIGH 2527 14.46 0.1 130 *12 *** 16*** *1.00** * 0.10 *** 0.01** **PASS

Thanks for any help!

[Tim]

When was the last time you changed the plugs and replaced the cat?

If you haven't changed it yet, it might be worthwhile to swap out while you're at it.

[BoxerFanatic]

I just bought a car out of California for basically this reason, to keep it out of the crusher.

The explanation that I got was not very technically in depth... but this is what I was told, but it may be incorrect. I am just repeating it.

The car I bought, the smog test failed at idle, but passed once the engine was above 2500rpms, and the catalysts warmed up.

The recommended resolution was to replace the rear, main catalyzer, according to what I was told.

But your issue may not be quite the same, or the recommendation I heard may be wrong.

Thank goodness, Iowa, at this point, doesn't have smog testing regulations. My 2005 Legacy GT, with a straight up-pipe probably wouldn't even pass.

But frankly, if the car is running well on the spark plugs it has, and they are stock specification, I would probably be tracking down catalytic converter replacement parts, and talking to knowledgeable exhaust techs, Subaru techs, or both, there in CA that are familiar with solving problems like yours.

Before you get to the end of your rope with this, please do not "retire" the car.

Trade with someone out of state, for a car that will pass emissions tests, or put the money into the car that will keep it on the road. Otherwise sell it to someone outside of California.

Please, don't let the state crush that car for that stupid as hell reason. There are fewer and fewer of these cars, as some are lost to attrition of traffic accidents, or mechanical failures that reduce them to parts candidates.

I can't buy every SVX in California that fails it's emissions testing. I can't buy any more than the one I just did, that should be delivered tomorrow.

And for pete's sake toss the idiots out of your state government, and get some sane people in there, that will use some common sense.

Losing these cars that are otherwise viable vehicles, just for catalyst efficiency reasons, is like killing and cremating someone for a sprained ankle. A permanent, and cruel solution for a very temporary, and ultimately not very serious problem.

[SoCal LS-L]

James..... you did your plugs 18,000 ago, thats good BUT, how much oil has leaked from your plug seals and valve cover gaskets onto the coils since then?? I replaced plugs that were only 10,000 miles old and found the #5 coil covered in oil, and the plug itself was ashy from misfiring. Start with the basics.... your engine isnt burning fuel clean enough at low idle.... a good symptom of misfire. Spend an hour or two checking your coils and plugs to make sure they are clean.

I have to pass CA smog soon too..... one thing you can try is to use that screw on the throttle linkage (on the throttle body) to make your car idle high.... that might make you pass for now . Im not sure the RPM limit in CA for the idle test, but im going to try that if mine wont pass either.

[TomsSVX]

HydroCarbons= Bad cat. Replace it and you will have w1n

Tom

[James Scott]

Thanks for all your advice!

Tim: Plugs 18K ago (5/08)... All three cats replaced 7/05.

Covert Boxer: Thanks for all your info and comments! And.. . Yes, I may sell out of state!

Chris: Fairly heavy leak from driver side VC gasket (chronic) - replaced gaskets 2 or 3 times in 7 years. Did head gaskets about 2 years ago. I will check (clean) coil wires and replace spark plugs [Anyone know how to do without mutilating my hands!?]. Throttle linkage screw won't tighten enough to hold low idle speed up above ECU generated RPM (~615).. . I TRIED! RPM limit on low idle test is 1200, but my smog technician held mine at about 1000 on "pretest" idle check, but my car still registered above the MAX (limit = 100).. . at about 150!

Tom: The smog guy said "If the cat(s) worked for the high idle HC test (and they did, cuz they passed), then why wouldn't it clean alot slower flow of exhaust". He said replace the plugs (with non-plat Champions) and come back (?)!

{BTW.. I haven't been able to verify which fuel pressure regulator is which.. . BUT, everyone seems to think that would be no problem! [I'm either using the stock SVX or (higher pressure) Impreza regulator. . ?]}

I can't believe the amount of runaround I've gotten with all of this! Yesterday was actually pathetic! I went to about 3 muffler shops (they install cats) and 3 smog stations.. . AND THEY ALL TOLD ME THE LAST REFERRAL GUY DIDN'T KNOW WHAT HE WAS DOING.. I HAD TO DO SOMETHING ELSE! [Too difficult and depressing to explain in detail here, but it was like nothing else I've ever experienced! To cap off the day, I found out that the Subaruparts.com double-discounted rear cat [@$238 shipped] that I ordered the night before online could be purchased locally in an acceptable (CA smog) Magnaflow version for $139! I'd been told the day before that I had to purchase the OEM cat(s) .. or any shop would not install..Ha!]

I guess it could be oily coil wires and therefore plugs.. .But, as you see here too..Some say "it has to be the plugs"..Some say "it's definitely the cat(s)"!

OH.. . BTW.. The smog tech who said it shouldn't be a cat, based on the smog stats.. and insisted it's the plugs (wants me to put non-plat Champions!).. and his buddy mechanic said .. "change the oil to 15-40 non-synthetic right before the smog test".. . Hmmmmmm?

So, there's no HOT plug that would help? .. . And, no one thinks non-plat Champions makes sense?

Thanks again for all your comments ..and help! Jim

[TomsSVX]

In my experiences I have found a high HC count is typically due to a bad catylitic converter. High NOX is due to a malfunctioning/non-functioning EGR valve. That is what I know and why I suggested it. Just because it passed a high idle test doesn't mean it is working properly

Tom

[WestCoastSVX]

Any ideas if a Magnaflow high flow replacement cat would pass emissions, better than a 18 year old stock one?

Gotta be cheaper than a OEM one?

[TomsSVX]

I have had good luck with them thus far. Considering they are $100 and need to be welded in it is a valid solution.

Tom

[Tim]

Originally Posted by MacGyver

Any ideas if a Magnaflow high flow replacement cat would pass emissions, better than a 18 year old stock one?

Gotta be cheaper than a OEM one?

I've passed 2 emissions tests on Magnaflow cats.

[James Scott]

I don't think you guys "Get It".. ? In California, beginning 1/1/09, all cats must be numbered specifically for California use! The smog "industry" is so heavily regulated here that muffler shops are turning away business right and left..because they will lose their license if caught welding on a cat that does not specifically have a CA certification number printed on it! The smog station must (mine didn't tho during the two failed smog tests I took) check the cat(s) for registered certification numbers.. . or ELSE! Everyone therefore is on edge..their licenses and businesses are on the block!

As I said earlier, I have tried (?) to cancel my OEM rear cat online order with SubaruParts.com because I found that Magnaflow has a CA "certified" cat specifically numbered for my car that I can purchase locally (muffler shop picks up from local warehouse) which is cheaper! The "high-flow" I don't think is an option now (CA restrictions?).. I got one with my Magnaflow system I bought from Motorsport Warehouse years ago. [I've had good luck with them too (in the past)!]

I don't understand your "18 year old stock one" comment? Who has that one? I don't.

There is no NOx now. Used to be.. . but, not now (?).

If you see Al Gore.. . Kick him in the stomach for me, please!

Where I live.. . There putting hundreds, if not thousands of agricultural workers at all levels out of work, cuz the dip stick environment worshippers have scared our politicians into caring more about a little non-indigenous smelt fish... than these important AG workers and the AG industry (We are big in AG here in Fresno). [They're cutting our water hugely to divert into the ocean drainage to save the fish!.. . and KILL the AG industry west of Fresno]

The bible says, " Professing themselves to be wise.. they became fools.. ." Seems about right!

Thanks for your continuing help! Jim

[TomsSVX]

Ok, seriously, there are no numbers on your cat. IF you buy a new one I would imagine you might need the receipt and paperwork saying it needs to be smog approved for your engine and GVW. WHICH THE MAGNAFLOW CATS ARE. They are 50 state legal. So I do "get it" I just don't think you want to "fix it"

Tom

[lhopp77]

Dang--find a buddy SVX owner with an OBDII car that has passed emissions testing--swap exhausts for a week and see if it will pass.

Just a thought.

Lee

[WestCoastSVX]

Originally Posted by James Scott

I don't understand your "18 year old stock one" comment? Who has that one? I don't.

I was just asking in general, since a lot of the SVXes out there are 18 years old now (like mine). I realize yours is only 14-15 years old or maybe you even have a newer stock cat than that. I was just generalizing though, I know other owners in CA are probably watching this thread with interest now as well.

[alltrac]

Originally Posted by James Scott

I smogged twice.. had high HC at idle twice 170 then 265.. . with the max allowable being 100. [Other stats good]

After changing both O2 sensors to no avail, I thot the only possibility is to change the back cat, but one says do it.. .the next says the SMOG TEST stats don't indicate needing a catalytic converter???

Does anyone know if you can read the SMOG STATS and get an idea of cat function?[/I][/B] The last smog guy said he doesn't think it needs cat(s) because the CO dropped so low at high idle (two idle test).. . down to .02 (from .06 at low idle) in the first failed test.. . and down to .01 (from .23 at low idle) in the second failed test (?). He says "if it works at high idle (all numbers passed at high idle), then the cat(s) should work at low idle, where the cat is cleaning less exhaust!" [So, he says it must be a tuneup issue.. . But I replaced plugs last year with OEM platinum NGK plugs (18,000 miles ago), changed oil with Mobil 1 synthetic (10/30?) about two months (3,000 miles) ago, ran Techron and other engine/injector cleaners, and cleaned/oiled my K&N air filter! He insisted I replace my plugs with non-platinum cheap Champion (#346) plugs.. and come back, before anything else!]

2) So, does the plug thing make any sense? [cheap, non-plat Champion?]

3) Can I run a hot plug (regular or NGK plat?) that would lower my idle HC's?

4) The muffler (cat) guy says the smog guy can tell (from ECU lead?) exactly which cat(s) needs replacement. When I go there, he says plugs..not cats! Others say the muffler guys can check the cats temp before and after. When I'm there, they say it only finds pressure (clogged) problems (?). Is there any objective and reasonable way to check cats?

5) Is there any way to analyze the specific smog stats to diagnose the necessary fix?

SMOG STATS: [first test scores on top of second test scores]

***RPM CO2 *O2 HCMax HCAve HCMeas **COMax*COAve *COMeas * Results
Idle 614 14.1 * 0.3 100 ***17*** 170 ****1.00 **0.00 ***0.23 **** *Fail
Idle 612 13.5 * 1.1 100 *[GP=250] 265 *** 1.00 *[GP=2.5] *0.06 **** GrossPolluter

High 2556 14.2 0.4 130 ***12 *** 29*** *1.00 ** 0.10 *** 0.01** ** Pass
High 2443 13.5 1.2 130 *[GP=280] 55 * ** 1.00 * [GP=2.5]* 0.02 ** ** Pass

Thanks for any help!

Jim

The fact that your failing the idle test but passing the high would leave me to believe it's the cat. Where I'm confused is your first test even though you failed, the numbers were better than the second failed smog. What exactly was done to the car between the two tests?

As for checking the cats the smog tech will just peek under the car to see if they are present. They could care less if it's the proper cat or not. The installer of the cat is the one with the liability as they have to remove the old cat and replace it with an approved cat. I would personally stick with the OEM rear cat provided you can still bolt it on. I would ditch the K&N filter and clean the MAF sensor with CRC MAF cleaner. It sounds like you have already tried fuel cleaners so just rerun the test with no additives. Buy a full tank of Chevron 91 and bring the car to them after you have fully warmed it up.

Originally Posted by TomsSVX

Ok, seriously, there are no numbers on your cat. IF you buy a new one I would imagine you might need the receipt and paperwork saying it needs to be smog approved for your engine and GVW. WHICH THE MAGNAFLOW CATS ARE. They are 50 state legal. So I do "get it" I just don't think you want to "fix it"

Tom

No muffler shop in California will install/weld on a universal cat unless it is approved for California.

Originally Posted by lhopp77

Dang--find a buddy SVX owner with an OBDII car that has passed emissions testing--swap exhausts for a week and see if it will pass.

Just a thought.

Lee

OP has a 1995 so using an OBDII makes no sense.