Why our country is screwed

[Noir]

Originally Posted by James Scott

1) Started with taking God out of the classrooms! That [Atheist] dork {woman} back in the early '60 s I think.. . that sued the school systems and won..to have no school prayer.. .
2) Continues right up through .. and continuing today.. the disassembling of our Christian heritage.. . and pushing God into the back seat.. . or pushing Him out the door, while the car is still moving!

8) The bible says.. "Worry about nothing, pray about everything.. ."

Hope to see Ya at a "Tea Party"! .. . Jim

l0ll3rsk4t3s.....

[Noir]

Originally Posted by demonsvx

http://www.usdebtclock.org/
Get ready for the Second Great Depression.
Is it just me or a majority of Americans just do not care anymore or have we forgot that We The People truly have the final say in this matter?

I care. I would love to see the world burn.

[BoxerFanatic]

Originally Posted by Landshark

what if some of those "majority" of votes is ACORN fraud?

ACORN will be partnering with the govt. for the 2010 Census. am i the only one worried about this?

No, you are not.

And to be honest, that is a symptom of the CORE problem that is worrying me.

Not that the foundations of this country are weak, they are not weak. They have held up remarkably despite the ONSLAUGHT against them.

What worries me is the onslaught. The unconstitutional behavior of ALL THREE branches of government. The abandonment of the system, and the destruction of the system by those who are abandoning it.

From George Bush saying that he needed to abandon the free market to save it, which is insane, to giving the SecTreas more un-restricted power than ever...

And pretty much everything the new administration has done since day one. HUGE spending for leftist special interest programs being called "stimulus", moving unprecedented power to the White House Chief of Staff, including the census bureau, which should be a congressional agency with executive branch cabinet level management, and the Czars who are more powerful than cabinet secretaries, which are not subject to congressional scrutiny...

Census information also makes a HUGE difference on congressional districting and apportionment. That is not a bludgeoning tool for the POTUS should hold over the people's House of Representatives, the house that is closest to the people, by 2 year election cycles, and sub-state level per-capita constituencies.

The congress passing HUGE legislation, and acting offended that they should be expected to read it, and consider it before passage...

Eminent domain rulings by the US Supreme court, and their apparent unwillingness to censure and check the other two branches of government, when they are acting outside the US Constitution.

The system is not perfect. But it is better than any other governmental system devised by man...

However, the system is being abandoned...

Illustration in the news this week and today... Honduras. Obama is siding with the un-constitutional president of Honduras, who violated their constitution and tried to seize permanent power beyond the constitutional limits of that country, even over the opposition of the court and legislative bodies. An unconstitutional move, supported by Ortega, Chavez, and other dictators. The US president, who has sworn to uphold the most famous and influential Constitution in world history, is siding with a leader who is violating his own country's constitution.

THAT is what scares me. ACORN, and other vile corruption is further symptoms of that authoritarian cancer, of the rule of 'men', rather than the rule of law.

[TomsSVX]

Harry, I like a politcal sparing session once and a while, it is a good way to keep ontop of the times. I think no differently of anyone who may be a democrat or republican in the sense of friendship and hope you understand I am not bashing you in particular. But I still would like to know from your point of view... If we were able to do it all over again would you have still voted for Obama (democrat or not) after you have seen the direction he is pointing this country in?

Tom

[SoCal LS-L]

Corruption in the highest executive powers is as old as humanity itself...... I for one feel like those of use under 50 - 60 or so are going to grow old in a very different world, one where the lack of energy and food for the exploding population will dictate foreign and domestic policy, and war will be constant.

You remember those old Calvin and Hobbes cartoons where they ride the toboggan down the hill with no hope of steering and end up wrapped around a tree or flying off a cliff? Tragically, its a perfect analogy for the fate of society as we know it.

With all the corruption, debt, foreign problems, etc there's only one thing that really matters now, there's going to be too many of us and not enough to go around.

[newsvx]

Originally Posted by TomsSVX

Harry, I like a politcal sparing session once and a while, it is a good way to keep ontop of the times. I think no differently of anyone who may be a democrat or republican in the sense of friendship and hope you understand I am not bashing you in particular. But I still would like to know from your point of view... If we were able to do it all over again would you have still voted for Obama (democrat or not) after you have seen the direction he is pointing this country in?

Tom

Tom,
Absolutel no offense taken in our discussion. Your points (that I may or may not disagree with) are always made with respect for an opposing view - and I like and appreciate that. There is no doubt in my mind that any good republican has (for the most part) good intentions - even Bush and Cheney of the last administration.

It is the ole saying, "The end justifies the means" that I have a problem with in their regard. Anything seemed to go, whether it meant allowing the NSA to monitor "any" American's phone calls WITHOUT a court order (from very personal experience, I know know Army officers that, 10 years ago, got into a world of trouble in Europe because they kept a list of American phone numbers they were NOT ALLOWED to monitor because of the law. Just keeping a list of those not allowed almost sent them to jail!) or torture of prisoners (we put on trial both Japanese and American soldiers in years past for waterboarding a prisoner, and you know, if we do it to the enemy, they will see no problem doing it to us - being prior military, I'm sensitive to that), stating that if you disagree with going to war (war is HELL - I know!) one is not a patriot, etc ------ sorry, I was on my soap box again.

But to your question of whether I would vote for Obama today as I did in the Nov election: Yes, I would. Is he doing everything right IMO now? Nope, not at all. Has he done what I think has been necessary to clean up the country's financial mess the last administration left us in? Yes, for the most part. Do I agree with bailing out the car companies? No, BUT. Had the government NOT done anything at all, you don't even want to think about the unemployed workers in the millions - I have friends that work for GM and a number of their suppliers, so I have a good feel for the end result had they not been bailed out. Do I agree with bailing out the banks? Yes. We would be in a depression right now, had that not been done - even Bush recognized that with the first bailout. And it is sooooo good too to have a president that can speak in a complete paragraph and even a complete sentence for a "change". The Obama administration is not and never will be perfect, however, it is so much better than what we had or would have had if McCain / Palin (don't get me started on her!) had won the election. And remember too that if in four years the people of the US is not happy with the job he's doing (and the republicans get their collective act together), we can vote him out - that's what we did with the republicans last time. But Obama will not clean up anything in a few months - it took eight years to get to where we are now.
So yep, I would vote for Obama again today. Next month or next year may be a different story, but not now. And remember, I (as an independent) voted for Bush the first time around.

Let's keep talking, Tom. I enjoy a sane political discussion with respect shown on both sides any day of the week.

Harry

[Subie59]

Well, I agree with most of what you say but I have to disagree with your assumption that the U.S. is "so much better than any other country." This statement is really so typical of many Americans ignorant of other countries. I happen to be from Canada and, although Cdns like our American neighbours, very very few (if any) of the people I know would ever want to be an American or even live in the United States. It's fine to love your country and be proud of what you have, but it's important to recognize other countries best attributes and learn from them. Too often, Americans don't take the time to do this and instead get caught in a very narrow-minded view of the world.
Quite frankly your country is in terrible shape economically. Don't blame this on Obama. Your economic situation is the result of years and years of both Democratic and Republican incompetence and unwillingness to deal with serious problems. Of course, Americans have brought this on to themselves with your incredible appetite for consumerism and a belief that you deserve a certain lifestyle. I know this sounds harsh, but greed, mostly by your CEO's banks etc are the source of most of your problems and your inability to recognize this will eventually financially bankrupt your entire country.
I recently pulled all my investments out of the United States because of my disgust with your banking institutions. I'm sure I'm not alone.
Sorry for the dose of reality, but the days of the United States thinking it can lead the world are quickly disappearing.

Originally Posted by newsvx

Yep, there is A LOT wrong with this country, but I don't know of any other I would rather call home! It's not perfect by any means, but the good ole US of A is so much better than any other country, IMO. And during 20 years in the Army, I have been in quite a few different countries.

About the abuse of some of the "support" programs like unemployment insurance. One, the "employer" pays in to support most of that, and it is not all bad. Will there be abuses? Yep, just like everything else. I have a fellow down the street from me that is on disability, and he does pretty much what ever he wants to do. Wrong? you bet. But the ones that really need it far outweigh the ones that abuse it.

And not to start a political discussion, but Obama has a great deal to clean up from the past eight years. If he does not fix thing in the first four years, vote him out! That's what we did in the last election. When you have CEO's making the very large salaries (and golden parachute retirement packages) they make and the Republicians not wanting to raise the minimum wage, there is something wrong with that picture. Compare what the average Japanese auto maker CEO takes home to that of GM: Big, Big difference - no wonder our auto manufacturers are in such bad shape. And BTW, the unions are not much better, and it is coming back to bite all of them .....

Okay, I'll get off my soap box .....

[Green1995SVX]

Originally Posted by Subie59

Well, I agree with most of what you say but I have to disagree with your assumption that the U.S. is "so much better than any other country." This statement is really so typical of many Americans ignorant of other countries. I happen to be from Canada and, although Cdns like our American neighbours, very very few (if any) of the people I know would ever want to be an American or even live in the United States. It's fine to love your country and be proud of what you have, but it's important to recognize other countries best attributes and learn from them. Too often, Americans don't take the time to do this and instead get caught in a very narrow-minded view of the world.
Quite frankly your country is in terrible shape economically. Don't blame this on Obama. Your economic situation is the result of years and years of both Democratic and Republican incompetence and unwillingness to deal with serious problems. Of course, Americans have brought this on to themselves with your incredible appetite for consumerism and a belief that you deserve a certain lifestyle. I know this sounds harsh, but greed, mostly by your CEO's banks etc are the source of most of your problems and your inability to recognize this will eventually financially bankrupt your entire country.
I recently pulled all my investments out of the United States because of my disgust with your banking institutions. I'm sure I'm not alone.
Sorry for the dose of reality, but the days of the United States thinking it can lead the world are quickly disappearing.

I'm very glad that you said this. Thank you. Truly.

[BoxerFanatic]

Originally Posted by Subie59

Well, I agree with most of what you say but I have to disagree with your assumption that the U.S. is "so much better than any other country." This statement is really so typical of many Americans ignorant of other countries. I happen to be from Canada and, although Cdns like our American neighbours, very very few (if any) of the people I know would ever want to be an American or even live in the United States. It's fine to love your country and be proud of what you have, but it's important to recognize other countries best attributes and learn from them. Too often, Americans don't take the time to do this and instead get caught in a very narrow-minded view of the world.

Blind Jingoism is not a hallmark of rationality, but I don't think that is what the person that you are responding to was taking part of.

And frankly, I find it very convenient that Canadians and Europeans tend to say the very things you say.

Servicemen like the man you were responding to have made great sacrifice and service, and many like him are the military force that keep the western world safe and secure. I mean no disrespect to the military forces of our allies, and I thank them... but they are not the same as the US Military, which makes up the majority of UN and NATO allied forces.

The term Superpower is not an empty vocabulary term, and many of our allies have not had to pay a full price for the stability they enjoy due to the US Military's efforts around the world. The US Military, in a historical context, has been one of the most prolific liberators of oppressed peoples in world history, from World Wars to Iraq's new self-government, out from under the thumb of a brutal tyrant.

Quite frankly your country is in terrible shape economically. Don't blame this on Obama. Your economic situation is the result of years and years of both Democratic and Republican incompetence and unwillingness to deal with serious problems. Of course, Americans have brought this on to themselves with your incredible appetite for consumerism and a belief that you deserve a certain lifestyle. I know this sounds harsh, but greed, mostly by your CEO's banks etc are the source of most of your problems and your inability to recognize this will eventually financially bankrupt your entire country.
I recently pulled all my investments out of the United States because of my disgust with your banking institutions. I'm sure I'm not alone.
Sorry for the dose of reality, but the days of the United States thinking it can lead the world are quickly disappearing.

Our economics are not isolated to the US. The European markets have not fared so well, either, and the FED, and IMF are as much to blame as individual bankers. It is easy to point at CEOs... but more often than not, it is the government regulations that cause trouble.

Most banks did not lend at sub-prime rates for their fun and health. They did so under government pressure, and Fannie Mae / Freddie Mac pseudo-government organizations assurances to buy securitized bad debt.

And to put none-too-fine a tip on it, those are leftist policies, and not all that far from the more socialized Canadian and European models of government involvement in free markets, albeit ham-fisted and stupid. But even well executed, it is not free market capitalism. And thus free market capitalism is not to blame, because it is not being practiced.

American consumerism may have gotten slightly out of hand, but again, that is more of a buzz word than an actual effect. The news never reports the normal people living within their means, because it doesn't make ratings.

I find your incinuation that Americans by and large feel entitled to a lifestyle to be a somewhat false premise, as well. Most americans work VERY hard, and should expect compensation and lifestyle capabilities to compensate. We are not socialist, and uniformly mediocritized, at least we aren't supposed to be. Opportunity to better one's situation, including economically, is part of the success and appeal of "the American Dream". Consigning ones's self to socialized uniformity is not exactly the stuff of dreams and ambitions.

Even in this economic trouble, this economy is the largest, most influential, and productive economy the world has ever seen, and that is by the numbers, not by just wanting to say it. Frankly, it dwarfs the economy of canada, and most of western europe, and some large US states have economies larger than european countries short of maybe Germany.

IF there is a reason to pull out of investment, it is because the US government is starting to follow a socialist model, and influencing the way the financial system works, rather than leaving well enough alone, and letting market forces return to stability by their own mechanisms, including bankruptcy of companies not carrying on business the way they should.

I think the US has taken a few too many lessons from Canada, and western European-style socialism, and while they are starting to trend away from socialism, the US government is thrusting forward toward it at great speed, and largely without the approval of the majority of the country's citizenry.

Even some people who voted for Obama are reportedly quite surprised with the extent and speed of the fundamental changes that are being made, and saying that they didn't sign up for that, regardless of how popular the public persona of Obama continues to be.

So perhaps you should realize that the US is not just what you hear in the media, including the US media itself, and is not quite made up like the easy target for criticism that it is painted as.

[Subie59]

boxerfanatic i respect your comments and in no way meant my comments to be an attack on individual Americans. Of course my comments are general in nature. I recognize that many americans are hard-working men and women trying to scratch out a living.
But I must admit that I find americans' obsession with "free market" and disgust for anything 'socialist' quite humorous. Your free market society is really another term for the rich get richer and screw the average working class guy with a family. In Canada we have as much as free market as you but we recognize that there are times when 'we' as a country can band together to help the less fortunate who, for example, might get cancer and cannot deal with dying and forcing their family into bankruptcy at the same time. I would not live in a country without universal health care. Call me a socialist if you would like, but I hope you never get cancer or need a heart bypass operation. I happen to have had a bypass a few years ago and I think my total cost was $24 for a TV while I was in the hospital. Long live universal health care.

[Green1995SVX]

Originally Posted by Subie59

'we' as a country can band together to help the less fortunate who, for example, might get cancer and cannot deal with dying and forcing their family into bankruptcy at the same time. I would not live in a country without universal health care. Call me a socialist if you would like, but I hope you never get cancer or need a heart bypass operation. I happen to have had a bypass a few years ago and I think my total cost was $24 for a TV while I was in the hospital. Long live universal health care.

I can't believe that anybody could disapprove of universal health care. I'd really love to be able to go to a doctor when I'm sick.

[BoxerFanatic]

Where are cancer treatments, and medical advancements made, moreso than any other place?

Not in socialized medicine countries, but rather in the US, where the opportunity to be rewarded for hard work exists, at least up until now, as it is currently under attack. People are coming to the US when they can't get service in a reasonable timeframe, or can't get a specialist. People aren't flocking to socialized medicine because it is just so amazingly good, and timely.

I am glad you love the fact that lots of other people had to work a VERY long time to pay the taxes for your hospital bills.

Private, non-governmental health insurance works. Just like car insurance, and homeowner's insurance. And by having to actually compete with other providers makes them more efficient than an inherently uncompetitive, and wasteful state bureaucracy.

Again, it is an easy target for by-standers to criticize and point fingers, and say

"I find americans' obsession with "free market" and disgust for anything 'socialist' quite humorous. Your free market society is really another term for the rich get richer and screw the average working class guy with a family."

When the free market allows more prosperity for EVERYONE who wants to work for it than an onerous state bureaucracy that by definition has to exert managment control over everyone, and invariably results in a nanny-state.

Most corrupt activity stems not from honest free market proponents who do honest business, and have to compete in the marketplace, but rather from people in league with the administrative regulators in government. Government involvement on a large scale is not typically right wing, but left wing, politically.

[Subie59]

"Even in this economic trouble, this economy is the largest, most influential, and productive economy the world has ever seen, and that is by the numbers, not by just wanting to say it. Frankly, it dwarfs the economy of canada, and most of western europe, and some large US states have economies larger than european countries short of maybe Germany."

Bigger is not always better but, more importantly, you are mistaken here. The american economy is not productive, that is your primary problem. You are a consumer society. You used to be productive but now you import most of your goods from China. China is now productive. Canada is more productive per capita than the US. We export our commodities (oil, gas lumber, potash.... mostly to the US.
if you mean by having a large economy that you are big consumers, you are right. But consuming goods made outside your country just means you export what little wealth you have to other countries and increase your debt. Something like a family who keeps adding to their credit cards. They may look wealthy to their neighbours but, in fact, they are just getting poorer with every new purchase they make.

And some large US states (california comes to mind) are completely bankrupt.

I'm not suggesting Canada is perfect, we have many of the same problems you have but because of things like universal health care, it is much easier for large companies to open shop here because they are no longer responsible for the expensive health care which they had to pay in the US.

[Subie59]

Boxerfan All Canadians, including myself, pay high taxes for universal medicare.We don't look at it the same way you do. We may complain about our taxes but we work together so that everyone can have a high quality level of health care. Yes there are a few people who cross the border for non-life-threatening operations like hip replacements but that is the result of impatience rather than looking for better health care in the US. You have room in your health care system to absorb people like that because a huge percentage of your population have no health care and not enough money to pay for the health care they need.
Reading your post, one would think that the world is waiting for the US to discover all the cures of the world. nothing could be farther from the truth. Canada and European countries are in some ways far ahead of the US in medical research. You just hear more about the US because you are bombarded with very one-sided media that reinforces your belief that Americans are the leaders in every field ....
I am a faithful watcher of CNN but I really have to laugh at times with how little the reporters know about Canada and other countries. And these are some of the better journalists in the US.
Your president knows better and is trying to correct the problems he has inherited. He is probably doing as much harm as he is good but his hands are tied by years of incompetence and unwillingness to take action by governments who have gone before him.

I point you to a few interesting websites
2006- Report by UN shows Canada is the best place to live.
http://www.english-vancouver.com/can...n-development/

2007-2008 From the LA times Canada 4th- US 12th
http://travel.latimes.com/daily-deal...t-and-wo-1122/

[Subie59]

Ok one last point I can't help but comment on.
Do you really think that you are rewarded for hard work? From what I see, where I work and from observation, is that in many cases, the harder you work the less money you make. Those who are paid the most actually do the least.
The famous saying: It's not how hard you work but how smart you work couldn't be more true from where I stand. But it should be added that the more butt you kiss the more money you make.
That is one of the reasons Unions are so important. I have worked for too many companies that think your value should be based on how much they like you and that is directly related to how much butt you kiss on the job.
But judging from your anti-socialism stand, I am sure you are against unions too.
Again, I would not want to work for a company without a union. Long live unions.