OT- Sad about War.

[Seraph]

Originally posted by blackbolt94red

Big talk for such a young man. We all saw it happen dude, just because you happened to be there makes you no more special than any of us. Besides, if your so hungry to go and kill people, go kill some Saudies, they're the one behind it, the ones with the deep pockets.
What ever means necessary? Should we just nuke the bastards?
Are you in the Service? Ready to go are you? With statements like "you should shut the fawk up" do you wonder why 85% of the Third World can't stand Americans?

Thank you.

My point.

Mike, if you are so upset and you want to go kill saddam, be my guest. Go join the army or marines and go to the gulf. Go take a reality pill. I've been around the world many times. My dad worked for the UN. I got my education thanks to the UN. What I have seen when I am traveling around the world is that everyone like each other even the arabs and jews.

However, the reason why americans are hated is because of the holier than thou attitute that they seem to display everywhere (althought that would not last too long. There are other countries which are developing fast -- give it 20 years).

So 2 planes went into 2 buildings (well 3 into 3 buildings and one into a corn field), many lives were lost.... Yeah it happened. Stuff like that happen. It's call life and being human. The gulf war was started by the Americans. The Vietnam war was started by the Americans. Look at wars that are started by the Americans... No wonder Americans are hated.

I think I've said enough.

L

[Paisan]

Seeing it on TV and seeing it live are 2 totally different things, TOTALLY DIFFERNT!

I pay my taxes so that our hired army can fight for me, but if there were a draft, I would not go and hide or flee the country.

-mike

[shoden]

Originally posted by blackbolt94red

Big talk for such a young man. We all saw it happen dude, just because you happened to be there makes you no more special than any of us. Besides, if your so hungry to go and kill people, go kill some Saudies, they're the one behind it, the ones with the deep pockets.
What ever means necessary? Should we just nuke the bastards?
Are you in the Service? Ready to go are you? With statements like "you should shut the fawk up" do you wonder why 85% of the Third World can't stand Americans?

Nice reply... I'd just read his response to my post, and was working on what to say back, but you expressed my thoughts quite nicely.

I've got friends deploying over there right now, and a good portion of them don't think it's the right thing either.

I supported the action in Afghanistan 100%, because the Taliban was supporting and providing sanctuary to bin Laden. However, there is no good evidence that Saddam is supporting him, or has any significant support for Al Qaida. Is Saddam a BAD MAN? Yes, we all know he is, but there are a lot of bad leaders in the world that we're not messing with. Saddam is not a threat to us, and I think he could be disarmed with out a full scale war.

A desire for revenge is not a valid reason for war, especially when you're targetting the person that didn't even commit the crime...

[Seraph]

Originally posted by Paisan
I got whacked in the head with blinds and spreadsheets from WTC while walking home, I had friends and collegues killed on 9/11.
-mike

I WAS IN THE MIDDLE OF A FREEKING MINE FIELD. I've seen 2 year old orphans in the middle of winter in Europe thanks to some power hungry a-holes. I am pissed? Yeah. But my anger stops at some point. What do I do? I developed a database for UNHCR so that those hungry kids can eat. I made another database for UNHCR so that the people responsiable for the crimes can pay.

Instead of coming to a website and b*tch about it, call 1800 GO ARMY. Release some stress and be useful for the cause at the same time. Do it. Don't tell us stuff. We've all heard it.

L

[Seraph]

Originally posted by Paisan
Seeing it on TV and seeing it live are 2 totally different things, TOTALLY DIFFERNT!

I pay my taxes so that our hired army can fight for me, but if there were a draft, I would not go and hide or flee the country.

-mike

I agree with the point about seeing it and being there are totally different. I know what you are talking about.

As for doing something about it, you'd rather sit in the comfort of the your house, rather than try to contribute in solving the cause.
I'd find ways to help. And you don't need a draft to join the army. You can volunteer too. Just in case you did not know.

L

[shoden]

Originally posted by Paisan
Seeing it on TV and seeing it live are 2 totally different things, TOTALLY DIFFERNT!

No, they're not. We're all Americans, and all human, and just because you were there doesn't make you special.

Originally posted by Paisan
I pay my taxes so that our hired army can fight for me, but if there were a draft, I would not go and hide or flee the country.

-mike [/B]

Easy to say since you know there's no draft and most likely never will be. If you really wanted to avenge your friends that were killed on 9/11, you join the military instead of hiding behind your tax dollars.

Let go of the hate and the nationalism... they're not healthy.

Edited... changed "there" to "they're"... I can't believe I made that mistake, since it's a pet peeve of mine.

[mohrds]

Originally posted by shoden
However, there is no good evidence that Saddam is supporting him, or has any significant support for Al Qaida.

So the intelligence documents presented by Colin Powell to the UN showing the trade of biologicals, weapons and money from Saddam to the Al Quida that the UN found enlightening enough to accept is still not enough evidence for you?

What sort of evidence are you looking for, a picture of Saddam and Bin Laden having lunch?

Doug

[JeffN]

Originally posted by Seraph


The way to cure all of the attacks is to deprive them of the needs and deprive them of $$$$....

L

I spend about 10% of the year in France(all of whom I met were as horrified as anyoen at 9/11).

Why does everyone think the US is the only supplier of weaponry? Is General Motors the only carmaker in the world as well as the largest?

The reason France and Germany's government are opposed to war NOW, is that we'll find out the missiles and jets we're shooting down were made in Toulouse...and the suuplies used there are European-against the trade embargo, I believe.

This just in: interesting email:

ARAB/ISLAMIC:
Muslims number 1, 200,000,000 ... about 20% of the world's population
....
and have won the following Nobel Prizes:
Literature:
1957 - Albert Camus (of French parentage, but raised in North Africa)
1988 - Najib Mahfooz.
Peace:
1978 - Mohamed Anwar El-Sadat
> > 1994 - Yaser Arafat
> > Chemistry:
> > 1990 - Elias James Corey
> > 1999 - Ahmed Zewail
> > Medicine:
> > 1960 - Peter Brian Medawar
> > 1998 - Ferid Mourad
> > JEWISH NOBEL PRIZE WINNERS:
> > Jews number approx. 14,000,000 ... about 0.02% of the world's
population,
> > which is about the population of Nepal or Morocco)
> > Literature:
> > 1910 - Paul Heyse
> > 1927 - Henri Bergson
> > 1958 - Boris Pasternak
> > 1966 - Shmuel Yosef Agnon
> > 1966 - Nelly Sachs
> > 1976! - Saul Bellow
> > 1978 - Isaac Bashevis Singer
> > 1981 - Elias Canetti
> > 1987 - Joseph Brodsky
> > 1991 - Nadine Gordimer World
> > Peace:
> > >1911 - Alfred Fried
> > 1911 - Tobias Michael Carel Asser
> > 1968 - Rene Cassin
> > 1973 - Henry Kissinger
> > 1978 - Menachem Begin
> > 1986 - E! lie Wiesel
> > 1994 - Shimon Peres
> > 1994 - Yitzhak Rabin
Chemistry:
> > 1905 - Adolph Von Baeyer
> > 1906 - Henri Moissan
> > 1910 - Otto Wallach
> > 1915 - Richard Willstaetter
> > 1918 - Fritz Haber
> > 1943 - George Charles de Hevesy
> > 1961 - Melvin Calvin
> > 1962 - Max Ferdinand Perutz
> > 1972 - William Howard Stein
> > 1977 - Ilya Prigogine
> > 1979 - Herbert Charles Brown
> > 1980 - Paul Berg
> > 1980 - Walter Gilbert
> > 1981 - Roald Hoffmann
> > 1982 - Aaron Klug
> > 1985 - Albert A. Hauptman
> > 1985 - Jerome Karle
> > 1986 - Dudley R. Herschbach
> > 1988 - Robert Huber
> > 1989 - Sidney Altman
> > 1992 - Rudolph Marcus
> > 2000 - Alan J. Heeger
Economics:
> > 1970 - Paul Anthony Samuelson
> > 1971 - Simon Kuznets
> > 1972 - Kenneth Joseph Arrow
> > 1975 - Leonid Kantorovich
> > 1976 - Milton Friedman
> > 1978 - Herbert A. Simon
> > 1980 - Lawrence Robert Klein
> > 1985 - Franco Modigliani
> > 1987 - Robert M. Solow
> > 1990 - Harry Markowitz
> > 1990 - Merton Miller
> > 1992 - Gary Becker
> > 1993 - Robert Fogel
> > Medicine:
> > 1908 - Elie Metchnikoff
> > 1908 - Paul Erlich
> > 1914 - Robert Barany
> > 1922 - Otto Meyerhof
> > 1930 - Karl Landsteiner
> > 1931 - Otto Warburg
> > 1936 - Otto Loewi
> > 1944 - Joseph Erlanger
> > 1944 - Herbert Spencer Gasser
> > 1945 - Ernst Boris Chain
> > 1946 - Hermann Joseph Muller
> > 1950 - Tadeus Reichstein
> > 1952 - Selman Abraham Waksman
> > 1953 - Hans Krebs
> > 1953 - Fritz Albert Lipmann
> > 1958 - Joshua Lederberg
> > 1959 - Arthur Kornberg
> > 1964 - Konrad Bloch
> > 1965 - Francois Jacob
> > 1965 - Andre Lwoff
> > 1967 - George Wald
> > 1968 - Mars! hall W. Nirenberg
> > 1969 - Salvador Luria
> > 1970 - Julius Axelrod
> > 1970 - Sir Bernard Katz
> > 1972 - Gerald Maurice Edelman
> > 1975 - David Baltimore
> > 1975 - Howard Martin Temin
> > 1976 - Baruch S. Blumberg
> > 1977 - Rosalyn Sussman Yalow My cousin
> > 1978 - Daniel Nathans
> > 1980 - Baruj Benacerraf
> > 1984 - Cesar Milstein
> > 1985 - Michael Stuart Brown
> > 1985 - Joseph L. Goldstein
> > 1986 - Stanley Cohen [& Rita Levi-Montalcini]
> > 1988 - Gertrude Elion
> > 1989 - Harold Varmus
> > 1991 - Erwin Neher
> > 1991 - Bert Sakmann
> > 1993 - Richard J. Roberts
> > 1993 - Phillip Sharp
> > 1994 - Alfre! d Gilman
> > 1995 - Edward B. Lewis
> >
> > Physics:
> > 1907 - Albert Abraham Michelson
> > 1908 - Gabriel Lippmann
> > 1921 - Albert Einstein
> > 1922 - Niels Bohr
> > 1925 - James Franck
> > 1925 - Gustav Hertz
> > 1943 - Gustav Stern
> > 1944 - Isidor Issac Rabi
> > 1952 - Felix Bloch
> > 1954 - Max Born
> > 1958 - Igor Tamm
> > 1959 - Emilio Segre
> > 1960 - Donald A. Glaser
> > 1961 - Robert Hofstadter
> > 1962 - Lev Davidovich Landau
> > 1965 - Richard Phillips Feynman
> > 1965 - Julian Schwinger
> > 1969 - Murray Gell-Mann
> > 1971 - Dennis Gabor
> > 1973 - Brian David Josephson
> > 1975 - Benjamin Mottleson
> > 1976 - Burton Richter
> > 1978 - Arno Allan Penzias
> > 1978 - Peter L Kapitza
> > 1979 - Stephen Weinberg
> > 1979 - Sheldon Glashow
> > 1988 - Leon Lederman
> > 1988 - Melvin Schwartz
> > 1988 - Jack Stein! berger
> > 1990 - Jerome Friedman
> > 1995 - Martin Perl
> >
> > Admittedly, though, the Muslim world dwarfs the Jewish
> > world in the number of:
> > ~terrorists
> > ~suicide bombers
> > ~slave traders -and-
> > ~religious leaders calling for "holy wars."
> >
> > Maybe they should spend a little more time on education,
> > and less time on blaming the Jews for all their problems.
> >
> > Not taking sides here; but sure is FOOD for THOUGHT, isn't it?

[JeffN]

Originally posted by sfsvx


Not exactly. I think the number of tyrants set up and/or supported by the Soviets and their puppets easily equal or exceed "our guys", and my gut feel is that "their guys" have been responsible for more human misery than "our guys". I don't see the moral equivalency between Pol Pot and Ferdinand Marcos, for example.

I'm holding on to the possibility that President Bush and his advisors realize that the only way to really keep pressure on Saddam is to continue preparations to war that can be pulled back at the last moment if circumstances warrant. I don't think any real progress towards disarming Iraq will come about by having everyone give Saddam more time to think about it.

I also firmly believe that America is this planet's single greatest force for progress and good, despite the occasional misstep.

Glad you said it, but I do think we can/should and will be more responsible in future generations regarding resource utilization. Get the F*** outa your Tahoe/hummers/excursions. add a $1, gas tax (730./year each driver) for whatever use is needed-maybe 100billion extra for whatever we need(no tax on red truck fuel).
I also feel that, like the rest of the civilized world, those that demostrate a need for guns and suvs should have them. Thanks for the ramble.

[Uncamitzi]

Originally posted by Seraph
War does bring in good TV ratings.

On a serious note:

This is nothing more than trying to secure oil for the oil hungry US. Nothing more. Nothing less (well, junior trying to finish off what senior Bush did not finish).

There is a great chance that Saudi Arabia will not be the US's allie for too long. Since "Desert Fox," Saudis told US not to bring in more forces through SA so we know that SA is unstable and the political tides WILL change in the near future. So where do we get cheap oil? Iraq has billions of barrels sitting. Why not make peace with them. No you can't? Oh yes, we are not supposed to be happy with them so tell CIA to tell Saddam to be pissed at the US, we'll go in and remove his power (so to speak) and exile Saddam. Put in another puppet power that will sell us oil cheap. We are happy even if Saudi Arabia falls into the bad hands for now. We'll deal with Saudi Arabia at a later date by sending in troops to Iraq (by then should be friendly) and reverse the situation again.



Just my 4 cents. 2 is not enough this time.

L

If oil is the only reason we are going to fight... why didn't we march into Argentina when the country went on strike (which is a really big reason why our gas prices went up recently... not the continuing problem in the Middle East)

Oil is easy to blame.... you say you are open minded.... I believe you think you are. So stay open to other possibilities. Oil is A reason..., but definitely not the ONLY reason. I like to believe, maybe still naively (I was actually in Vietnam at the end and saw some stuff that has really affected my life, and not in a good way) that there are good people that we elect to administer the country. Not all, maybe not even most, but enough that we will make it.

[JeffN]

Originally posted by sfsvx


Don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.

Please don't be like Alec Baldwin, standing in front of microphones proclaiming that he'd leave the country if Bush became President, then refusing to follow through when it happened.

Talk's cheap. Action counts.

I was in school with him since kindergarten...

[Uncamitzi]

Originally posted by JeffN


I was in school with him since kindergarten...

With Cash?

[JeffN]

Originally posted by Seraph



Thank you.

My point.
. I got my education thanks to the UN. What I have seen when I am traveling around the world is that everyone like each other even the arabs and jews.

However, the reason why americans are hated is because of the holier than thou attitute that they seem to display everywhere (althought that would not last too long. There are other countries which are developing fast -- give it 20 years).

The gulf war was started by the Americans. The Vietnam war was started by the Americans. Look at wars that are started by the Americans... No wonder Americans are hated.

I think I've said enough.

L

And WWII was started by US also...oops, see what a UN education can do and why it should be deported? And we invaded Kuwait, NOWait! Twas the grinch thast stole Baghdad...ah yes well, Nam then, Doh, dang you Seraph, now you have me doing it! The pacifist French were the creators of that one otherwise the VietNAmese invented croissants because there sure was a lot of cafe noir there by the time we arrived.

The real reason we're hated, resented really, is our youthful brash can do attitude created in a land that never had a dictator, royalty or other opressor to stifle our creativity which spawned such pieces of paper a sthe bill of rights and the sanctity of the individual. That's what's worth my life, perhaps not yours but were different generations.

Maybe in a century or 2 nations will become extinct and a Gene Roddenberrylike peace will exist. Doh there it goes again. They had phazers didn't they?

And can you find holier than the French anywhere?

No, not cash, Alex Baldwin.

[shoden]

Originally posted by mohrds


So the intelligence documents presented by Colin Powell to the UN showing the trade of biologicals, weapons and money from Saddam to the Al Quida that the UN found enlightening enough to accept is still not enough evidence for you?

What sort of evidence are you looking for, a picture of Saddam and Bin Laden having lunch?

Doug

I watched that entire speech, and although I saw some pretty good evidence that Saddam is playing games with the inspection teams and concealing chemical/biological weapons, I don't recall seeing any evidence about trading them to Al Quida...

Okay, just did some searching on the Internet and found the following from Powell's speach:

"The nexus with Al Qaeda, Powell said, originates with a branch headed by Abu Massab al Zaqawi, a senior associate of bin Laden. He said Zaqawi has a camp in the northeastern corner of Kurdish Iraq teaching terrorist operatives how to produce ricin and other extremely lethal chemicals. He said Zaqawi has received medical treatment in Baghdad and that there are also other Zaqawi brigades operating in Baghdad. "From his terrorist network in Iraq, Zaqawi can direct his terrorist network in the Middle East and beyond," Powell said. He also accused Zaqawi of providing money and weapons used in the killing of Lawrence Foley, an employee with the Agency for International Development, in Amman, Jordan last October. "

Guess I missed that part... must have gotten up to get a drink or something. He didn't go into much detail on it, and unlike the evidence of concealing weapons, I still don't think this is very good evidence. Besides, our government has lied or fabricated evidence in the past... just do a search on "United Fruit Company".

The other interesting thing about Powell's evidence is the location of the training camp being in "the northeastern corner of Kurdish Iraq". If I'm not mistaken, that's covered by the northern no-fly zone, and the Iraqi Kurds are supposed to be under our protection. It was the Kurds that we asked to rise up against Saddam after the Gulf War, and then we abandoned them to be slaughtered instead of supporting them... maybe they're a bit pissed about that?

[Uncamitzi]

Originally posted by Seraph



Thank you.

My point.

Mike, if you are so upset and you want to go kill saddam, be my guest. Go join the army or marines and go to the gulf. Go take a reality pill. I've been around the world many times. My dad worked for the UN. I got my education thanks to the UN. What I have seen when I am traveling around the world is that everyone like each other even the arabs and jews.

However, the reason why americans are hated is because of the holier than thou attitute that they seem to display everywhere (althought that would not last too long. There are other countries which are developing fast -- give it 20 years).

So 2 planes went into 2 buildings (well 3 into 3 buildings and one into a corn field), many lives were lost.... Yeah it happened. Stuff like that happen. It's call life and being human. The gulf war was started by the Americans. The Vietnam war was started by the Americans. Look at wars that are started by the Americans... No wonder Americans are hated.

I think I've said enough.

L

The gulf war was started by Americans?..... (who invaded Kuwait?) Vietnam was started by Americans? uh... we (mistakenly) took that war over from the French.. As an American I have been welcomed in almost every country I've ever been in (although I was shot at in Vietnam and Cuba)... Americans are emulated by most other countries, it's a love hate relationship that I can put down to shear jealousy.... Sorry..