This could explain a lot

[NikFu S.]

Originally Posted by sunvalleyray

Trying to blame one party is futile, they are both guilty of lowering taxes, starting unfunded wars and rewarding and protecting special interests like Wall Street. This country needs election reform i.e. public supported elections and limitations on special interests.

Americans need to stop exporting jobs and start creating good middle class jobs. For the last thirty years the disparity between the wealthiest and poorest in our country has been growing unlike anywhere else in the world. Without a healthy middle class, our country is doomed.

The bottom line is that we all cannot expect someone else to pay via taxes for wars, road, schools etc. but we need a level playing field and a fair distribution of wealth. My goal is to pay $1,000,000 plus a year in taxes for this will mean that I will have to try to get by with only another $2,000,000 income. I think we should all want to pay our (fair) share of taxes for few countries allow such opportunities and upper mobility as ours, or at least as our country used to.

Ray

*Like*

Originally Posted by RojoRocket

Funny how most of the moves to "steer us away from financial disaster" have awarded tax breaks to the rich and corporations while cutting needed services and budgets for departments like the EPA , responsible for protecting your water and air quality. Somehow I doubt that you folks are among the beneficiaries of this largesse. Maybe you could consider listening to something other than FOX News and "hate radio". If you believe that the travesties against collective bargaining in the public sector (including the teachers of your children) and emergency powers granted to their corporate controlled governors that are happening in Wisconsin and Michigan can't effect you it's time you wake up.

Glenn

*Like*

Originally Posted by radarwhiz

Absolutely right, Ray. It's not paying taxes that I got a problem with, it's what those taxes are being used for. When they're paying the welfare checks of people who are too lazy to get off their asses and get jobs, when they're paying for housing, grocieries, and healthcare of people who couldn't keep it in their pants and got ten bastard kids running around, then I got a problem. Meanwhile I'm replacing balljoints and shocks twice a year because they can't fix the pot holes littering the roads.

*Kinda like*, but heavy on the blaming things on the people who have no influence.
Welfare exists because people need it (due to unstable job markets, injuries, etc. legitimate reasons)
Poor people feeding off the system don't exist just because of Welfare. Granted the system is abused by some, but what system isn't. That is not a justification, merely an observation. Welfare should not be abolished simply because it is not an exception to what is probably a rule, especially since there are much greater schemes at work.

Originally Posted by radarwhiz

And we decide who to put in office by what they promise they'll do. It requires more responsibility of the voters to thoroughly evaluate the candidates and not be emotionally swayed by one hell of a teleprompter reader. The last presidential election was a very emotional, irresponsible one.

What good are voting records and shady alliances when the people prefer to be injected with pretty concepts of hope and other feel-good rhetoric?
Screw financial stability for the working-class, I want to be told I'm already rich and part of something bigger than myself! (Sarcasm!)

[Cam]

I find little motivation to cast a vote in any sort of election using a electoral system. We do not call ourselves a republic, but a democracy. This is not entirely true, since we do not use a populous vote for the presidency and our "elected" officials that are in the house and senate are the ones who write, pass, and shoot down laws. We get to vote on stuff that is not quite as important. For instance, we get to vote on the lightrail being built in seattle, because they want to take money from us to build it. But when something comes through that challenges the right of every citizen, like the patriot act, we only hear about it once it is either accepted or in the last stages of going through our "democratic" process.

I don't vote. I most likely never will. I enjoy the united states and a lot of the people here, but there are so many ignorant souls that don't truly understand what is going on.

Democratic or Republican...there's no real choice to be made. One will take money one way, and the others will achieve the same thing in a different fashion. They will both raise the defecit. And they will all vote to raise their pay. We need a new system in the states. But that will never happen without a second american revolution...

Part of me wishes to see that day, but part of me does not want to see the bloodshed that will ensue.

[radarwhiz]

Well it seems that our comfortable American culture has made us too complacent and passive. We acknowledge the existence of these issues and problems but none of us will ever really do anything about them; what can we do, right. So the most passion anyone will ever see out of us is the griping and whining we do here on the public forums. And if our actual votes don't really even mean that much then what are we accomplishing here? Damn I'm proud to be an American!

[NikFu S.]

Originally Posted by Cam

I don't vote. I most likely never will. I enjoy the united states and a lot of the people here, but there are so many ignorant souls that don't truly understand what is going on.

Democratic or Republican...there's no real choice to be made. One will take money one way, and the others will achieve the same thing in a different fashion. They will both raise the defecit. And they will all vote to raise their pay. We need a new system in the states. But that will never happen without a second american revolution...

Man, I have to ask what is your general political leaning? Just humor me for the best answer you can give. I don't really "believe" in this kind of ideological division, but for the purpose of not having to answer stupid questions from ignorant people I say I am Libertarian.

I am trying my best to not be a salesman here, but how can you have this original [before the media and disgruntled right-wingers got a hold of and bastardized it] Tea-Party-esque view without acknowledging the honest or worthwhile candidates out there?

Just to brush off every politician, that is plain lazy. I have been following Ron Paul for the last 4 years and I have never been so committed to a cause. The man is not in the pockets of big business. He actively seeks transparency of government interests in favor of the people. He has one of the most consistent voting records in all of Congress, and earned the nickname "Dr. No" from his peers for his refusal to ally with even borderline unconstitutional legislation.

From what I have gleaned over the last few years is he is American-centric. I am anti-nationalist but being that I live in this country I feel we should focus on our own problems before fixing others. This is an anti-interventionist policy (not isolationist, as that would imply inhibition of free-trade a la N. Korea)
He is a personal Christian. This means he holds his religious values to himself, and only himself which I like as a non-religious person. He is against abortion and drug use, as am I, though we would not force other people to be punished for what they do to their own bodies provided they affect no one else.
He is not anti-corporatist like me, but he is anti-crony capitalism" which is good for everyone who isn't a crooked CEO/BoD/etc.
The man is very intelligent and sticks to his guns. He's constantly being interviewed even by Fox news whom shunted him during the last election and wrote him off as a lunatic.

[whoops: hit submit before I was done]

Screw it, I either made my point or I didn't. I am tired. I have been fighting this fight for a long time.

He was appointed chairman of the Federal Reserve oversight committee, something or other, I forgot and didn't save a link [fixed!]. If you think it's hopeless, it isn't. Things are moving in the right direction... slowwwlllyy..

[Cam]

I have no general leaning. I have views on both sides of the spectrum. I value people that speak their mind, stick to their opinions, listen to others, and are rational. It is tough to find someone that fits that bill. Ron Paul seems like a good person. I have read up on him a little, and what you have claimed is congruent to my findings and readings about him. However, with the current system in place, he will never become president.

I do my part as a citizen by minding my own business. I may not do sit-downs, protests, or write my governor, but where would that get me? On a mailing list, to be drowned in junk mail and political propoganda, or beaten by some cop that feels threatened because he was told to put on riot gear and watch a crowd.

The people I do not respect are those who attempt to control other people without the SOLE PURPOSE of protecting others. A good example would be whoever helped make the seat-belt law (In washington state it is a violation to not wear your seatbelt. You can be pulled over for it, and fined with NO PROOF). How does it hurt someone else if I don't wear my seatbelt? I always wear mine, because it is safer and I do not wish to be ejected through my windshield. Cops should spend their time investigating thefts, assaults, rapes, and other serious crimes. Not writing traffic tickets.

I know I am a little off topic here, but I honestly believe that people should mind their own business. I think that we should also have ALMOST NO federal tax. There is truly very little that the government does for us for the amount of money they take. Then you factor in how they print more money to pay for **** we don't need, wars we don't belong in, 15 year old slu*s to get abortions, drug addicts with 8 children drawing welfare, etc. If I wanted to give homeless people help, I would volunteer at a shelter or give the guy on the corner a few bucks. Those are very noble things indeed. I however, would not voluntarilly give someone 10 bucks, and tell them to give it to the homeless guy down the street.

If you look at the recent history of our government, everything is done for one thing. Money. Let's possibly legalize marijuana, not because people legitimately can use it for pain (without the fear of being addicted physically like you end up using oxycontin), but because we can tax it. Let's go to the middle east, not for WMD's, but for oil. Let's scrap the space shuttle program, not because it's dangerous (a worthwhile danger), but because it's expensive.

OH, AND I LOVE THIS ONE.

Let's make everyone pay for healthcare. We will set up companies (with as much moral direction as ACORN, in all likeliness) that will distribute health insurance. What about people that already have it? We will make them pay taxes on the established value of their plan. What if people refuse? We will make them pay 750 bucks a year to opt out. Just put it in their taxes, if they don't want to pay, we will charge them with tax evasion/fraud. Meanwhile, health care quality will drastically go down the toilet. Lines will get longer, doctors will make less...

Oh, 21 states have already signed petitions? Well, don't forget who holds the VITO card. The law is already in effect. To abolish it means passing a new law, which in turn, could be vito'd with the stroke of a pen. A pen held by the man who used health care reform to be elected.

Okay, enough ranting for now. I am just upset at the way people conduct themselves. How do they sleep at night?

[NikFu S.]

Traffic tickets = state income. It's a mafia-like racket under the guise of protection, publicly backed by a few legitimate excuses because people can and do act stupidly.

The whole monetary system in this country makes less an less sense the more I learn about it. People who have money sleep well at night because they can afford fancy pillows, and everyone who wants their own pillows has to spend a few nights in the bed of someone who already does, and the only way you can get to that level is by screwing over as many people as you can. That's how profit is made. You do as little work as cheaply as possible, fool ignorant people into paying you for it, make them think they like it or have no other option, then legislate, buy, or defame your competition or anyone with real sense out of existence.

Luckily there are people out there who aren't just looking out for their own interests. Sadly, we are a minority, and often considered "fringe", ironically, by morons who think that by attaching their mouth to someone's cornhole they are more "free".

A lot of people don't minded eating a gilded turd as long as they can convince people it's a nugget of gold, because image is everything, knowledge is dangerous (and costly).

[RojoRocket]

Originally Posted by NikFu S.

The whole monetary system in this country makes less an less sense the more I learn about it. People who have money sleep well at night because they can afford fancy pillows, and everyone who wants their own pillows has to spend a few nights in the bed of someone who already does, and the only way you can get to that level is by screwing over as many people as you can. That's how profit is made. You do as little work as cheaply as possible, fool ignorant people into paying you for it, make them think they like it or have no other option, then legislate, buy, or defame your competition or anyone with real sense out of existence.

Luckily there are people out there who aren't just looking out for their own interests. Sadly, we are a minority, and often considered "fringe", ironically, by morons who think that by attaching their mouth to someone's cornhole they are more "free".

A lot of people don't minded eating a gilded turd as long as they can convince people it's a nugget of gold, because image is everything, knowledge is dangerous (and costly).

*Like**

Glenn Call me a Progressive then.

[Cam]

Originally Posted by NikFu S.

morons who think that by attaching their mouth to someone's cornhole they are more "free".

I agree with you completely.

[lhopp77]

Originally Posted by RojoRocket

Maybe you could consider listening to something other than FOX News and "hate radio". If you believe that the travesties against collective bargaining in the public sector (including the teachers of your children) and emergency powers granted to their corporate controlled governors that are happening in Wisconsin and Michigan can't effect you it's time you wake up.

Glenn

Love it. The far left liberals just HATE Fox news and would like to see them off the air. BUT NAME ONE OTHER NEWS SERVICE THAT WILL PRESENT BOTH SIDES OF AN ISSUE WITH REPRESENTATIVES FROM BOTH PARTIES??????

AND your brief on the Wisconsin situation shows the usual liberal knee jerk reaction with incomplete knowledge of the legislation. Read it-------It precludes collective bargaining of public employess (those that tax payers pay for) from demanding raises that EXCEED the rate of inflation UNLESS approved by referendum (every one has a voice). Seems fair as hell to me to the taxpayers that pay for these employees.

Lee

[lhopp77]

BUDGET DEFICITS?????? Seems there are two sides to this equation and not just caused by the "lowering of taxes" indicated above. How about run away spending??????? Several trillions more in long term spending planned than EVER even thought of under previous administrations!!!!! Lower taxes for certain segments of the population CREATES jobs in the private sector while the spending planned by this administration ONLY creates some jobs in the GOVERNMENT sector which we sure as hell don't need. Small businesses create most of the jobs---these are the ones that get hit hardest by higher taxes. When they get hit---they cut workers pay OR lay off workers. So what if they make a million dollars, but own 5 different businesses and hire several hundred employees----increasing their taxes only hurts the job situation and not what they take home for personal use. The tax increase impacts how many they hire, what they pay them AND what they charge US the consumer for whatever it is they make, sell or service they provide.

Lee

[RojoRocket]

Originally Posted by lhopp77

Love it. The far left liberals just HATE Fox news and would like to see them off the air. BUT NAME ONE OTHER NEWS SERVICE THAT WILL PRESENT BOTH SIDES OF AN ISSUE WITH REPRESENTATIVES FROM BOTH PARTIES??????

AND your brief on the Wisconsin situation shows the usual liberal knee jerk reaction with incomplete knowledge of the legislation. Read it-------It precludes collective bargaining of public employess (those that tax payers pay for) from demanding raises that EXCEED the rate of inflation UNLESS approved by referendum (every one has a voice). Seems fair as hell to me to the taxpayers that pay for these employees.

Lee

I'm sure you've read the bill cover to cover Lee. Why do you exclude my reference to the tax breaks granted to the rich and corporations while cutting services? And any "fair" debate on FOX is nothing but a sham with the host or other talking head just talking over the "enemy". Looks to this viewer that said "referendums" will soon oust the Govs and numbers of those state's "representatives". "Fundamentalist Conservatives" are constantly cutting off their noses to save face.

BTW, all the CAPS in your post certainly go a long way toward making your case. As far as "news", I watch and read a wide variety of programs and publications to form my opinions, based on what I see to be the facts. Unlike many listening to "hate" radio and television, I've actually figured out how to change the station.

Glenn Call me a Progressive

[lhopp77]

Speaking of ignoring things--waiting for the answer to ANY other network that has reps from boths sides at the same time???????????????? You can't obviously.

As to corporate taxes--I don't think you are as well read as you try to indicate. The US has the the highest corporate taxes in the world and needs to cut them. If you read a little more you will find that corporations now hold billions of dollars in cash offshore, but will not bring them to the US for expansion and expenditure as long as the taxes are inordinately high. Lower the taxes, the money comes back and gets invest here in assets and jobs. Simple.

And I see you admit that you have not read the Wisconsin bill, but merely support what you are told by the liberal press and unions. In another thread on here there has been some discussion about US jobs overseas and poor quality of US autos. Where does the blame for this go---right straight to the unions. Keep them because of seniority and NOT quality of work. Pay them a huge salary for very menial tasks, etc, etc, etc.

That is like the Arizonia immigration law that the Obama administration is filing suit over. Actually the law only requires Arizonia agencies and companies to ENFORCE CURRENT FEDERAL LAWS. Laws that are already on the books.

I did not exclude your reference to other tax reductions. The people you make reference to are the ones that create jobs and feed the economy. They much more efficient in growth and creating jobs than the government taking the money and only spending it on government jobs that are self defeating in long term budget deficits.

I also watch many other channels (except rarely MSNBC which is so far out in left field) and other news sources. Again, most do not tell the straight story--usually simply by deletion or not reporting at all. But, I do like to see what is being said by ALL sides. I like to see what the other side is saying unlike far left liberals who can't stand opinions other than theirs.

Lee

[RojoRocket]

Originally Posted by lhopp77

Speaking of ignoring things--waiting for the answer to ANY other network that has reps from boths sides at the same time???????????????? You can't obviously.

As to corporate taxes--I don't think you are as well read as you try to indicate. The US has the the highest corporate taxes in the world and needs to cut them. If you read a little more you will find that corporations now hold billions of dollars in cash offshore, but will not bring them to the US for expansion and expenditure as long as the taxes are inordinately high. Lower the taxes, the money comes back and gets invest here in assets and jobs. Simple.

And I see you admit that you have not read the Wisconsin bill, but merely support what you are told by the liberal press and unions. In another thread on here there has been some discussion about US jobs overseas and poor quality of US autos. Where does the blame for this go---right straight to the unions. Keep them because of seniority and NOT quality of work. Pay them a huge salary for very menial tasks, etc, etc, etc.

That is like the Arizonia immigration law that the Obama administration is filing suit over. Actually the law only requires Arizonia agencies and companies to ENFORCE CURRENT FEDERAL LAWS. Laws that are already on the books.

I did not exclude your reference to other tax reductions. The people you make reference to are the ones that create jobs and feed the economy. They much more efficient in growth and creating jobs than the government taking the money and only spending it on government jobs that are self defeating in long term budget deficits.

I also watch many other channels (except rarely MSNBC which is so far out in left field) and other news sources. Again, most do not tell the straight story--usually simply by deletion or not reporting at all. But, I do like to see what is being said by ALL sides. I like to see what the other side is saying unlike far left liberals who can't stand opinions other than theirs.

Lee

As sarcastically alluded to in my previous post, I tend to ignore anybody YELLING AT ME on the internet. So, your question was answered. "And any "fair" debate on FOX is nothing but a sham with the host or other talking head just talking over the "enemy"." Just because you ask doesn't obligate me to answer in the way you demand.

Where did I admit that I had not read the Wisconsin bill in it's entirety? I doubt that you read the entire bill either, quoting the same condensed version I've seen under a number of sources in the media, and while not claiming to have read through all the legalese involved, you accuse me of claiming to have done so? Typical Greedy Old Party tactics. If you were following what's actually happening in Wisconsin you would see that the Firemen and Police, union and non-union, joined marchers and protesters, although excluded from cancellation of their collective bargaining rights by Gov Walker and his cronies. Maybe you're not as well-read as you claim either? These people actually feel the impact, and know that the same tactics will eventually come to bear on them.

During my working career I was on both sides of the fence, as union member, shop steward, and conversely as a manager of fairly large groups of union, and non union members. As a steward I was obligated to represent people I had no respect for, lousy, dirt-bag employees, as well as good performers unfairly treated by their bosses. This helped me understand what my role was as a supervisor, and manager, following promotion. The Company and it's representatives were not always right either, and sometimes it was necessary to remedy injustice, as well as come down hard when an employee deserved it, firing people on numerous occasions, when due process was followed correctly. Your reference to the US Automakers/Workers "quality problem" leaves out Top Management's mistakes, believing they knew better than anyone what the public wanted in an automobile, blithely putting sub-standard designs into production while reaping bonuses far out of proportion to their contribution. Where were they when that bolt wasn't tightened properly, or part left sitting as the product passed by at speed?

Fact is we're all in this together, watching the top 1% accrue as much wealth and assets as 145,000,000 of us combined. Speaking of "highest corporate taxes in the world", following TARP in 2008, signed into law by none other than "Dubya", Bank of America paid "Zero" taxes in 2009, as well as Citigroup, Boeing, Exxon/Mobil, Wells Fargo and GE. The fat-cats continue to perpetrate corporate fraud on we millions with the recent run-up in gas prices, not driven by simple supply & demand, or "rising world demand" as we're told, but by the speculators with the big capitol, able to pocket more billions and walk away laughing at us, who don't get it.

So, go ahead and defend them Lee, and watch the GOP charlatans give more tax-breaks to the likes of the Koch Brothers, and I would ask you to do one thing. Hold your breath until those folks bring all those new jobs on line, and bring back those billions they now hide off-shore, and pay their fair share.

Glenn

[lhopp77]

A bit of income tax trivia:

Top 1 percent of income pays over 40% of total taxes

Top 10 percent pays 71% of total taxes

Top 25 percent pays 86% of total taxes

Top 50 percent pays 97% of total taxes

Equals---50 percent pf population does not pay squat???? They just live off the others and it is much of this group that wants to raise taxes on the rich.

More:

Of the top 15 RICHEST congress members--10 are Democrats!!!!!!!!!!


(Oh, selective caps is not called "yelling", it's called "emphasis" for the uninformed)

Lee

[radarwhiz]

Originally Posted by lhopp77

A bit of income tax trivia:

Top 1 percent of income pays over 40% of total taxes

Top 10 percent pays 71% of total taxes

Top 25 percent pays 86% of total taxes

Top 50 percent pays 97% of total taxes

Equals---50 percent pf population does not pay squat???? They just live off the others and it is much of this group that wants to raise taxes on the rich.

More:

Of the top 15 RICHEST congress members--10 are Democrats!!!!!!!!!!


(Oh, selective caps is not called "yelling", it's called "emphasis" for the uninformed)

Lee