how bad are some of those leading our country ?

[Cam]

By making it mandatory to have health care (or pay an annual fine for NO COVERAGE) they are going to drive the premium up, and at the same time, make the health care we receive lose quality. ER rooms are going to be filled making the waits longer. Doctors offices are going to be making appointments at dates twice as far in the future as they are now, and will most likely charge more for their services, since "it is the companies that pay".

The long and short of it is we all pay in the end. I just want to pay for myself and my family ("family" could be employees, kids, spouses, etc.). I believe this was already said, but look at what happened to automotive insurance when it was made mandatory. The same thing will happen here. And what is constitutional about making someone pay $750 because they never go to the doctor and don't feel the need to have health care? It is not the governments place to do this, whether you think it is a good idea or not.

[K_Dub]

First off, let me clarify. I often play Devil's Advocate in these political threads just to promote the conversation and explore all of the possibilities. I'm as pissed as everyone about "Obamacare" and consider it an abject failure for our optimistic president. The idea of a "Healthcare Mandate" was a big reason for me NOT voting for Obama. No private firms should have the power to tax the public. I hate the auto-insurance mandate, but if I really felt that strongly about it I could opt not to drive. We can not trust corporations to act in our best interest when we have no option to take our business elsewhere.

That said, let me speak for a moment about "entitlement." I've never had health insurance in my entire life. Every medical expense has been payed for with cash, and when I couldn't afford to see a doctor I didn't get to see one. I've got cavities and wisdom teeth that I was told 10 years ago needed immediate attention, but until I stumble on a sack of cash they can wait. I've also never held a credit card in my name, and my only debt is for my education (something I've come to regret). The way I see it; if you can't afford something then you can't have it.

Currently Americans seem entitled to a lot more than they can afford on the basis of the "American Dream". People bought houses they can't afford, and it brought down the housing market. People bought cars they can't afford and it brought down the auto industry. People are currently buying health care that they can't afford. All three of these industries will happily provide you with something you can't afford, but in the long run it'll cost you and the economy a lot more than it's worth. Perhaps our nation will never return to it's opulent past and we'll have to learn to live within our means as a society. Or maybe we'll keep on living like it's 1997 and the world is our oyster, but if that's the case we'll need some mighty big loans and have to start printing a lot more money.

All I know is that if I ever get a serious injury, it'd better kill me.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by ensteele

No, I can not get coverage to insure them after they are dropped.

If this is true and that on the US open market you cannot obtain insurance, the US is now a world apart. I doubt that this is in actual fact the situation.

I guess I should have used "my employees" instead.

You own no one. Those you employ deal with you on a voluntary basis. When you accept and understand that they work with you, as well as for you, you will obtain better service.

In less than 2 years, our country has been (what I consider) ruined by over spending, bail outs, lack of freedom, and headed for socialism in unimagineable speed.(Mad emblem.)

Any change in a process creates a temporary hiatus. This is an obvious, undeniable fact. Common sense and patience is called for, rather than outright unthinking anger.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by K_Dub

The way I read this I think you're upset at the wrong person, so lemme get this straight.

You've been paying money to a company for years to provide insurance for your employees at a price set by a cartel of insurance carriers. Now that they are faced with the possibility of new competition undercutting them they are simply folding up their tent and leaving you hanging? You're now upset at the guy who's trying to stop them from abusing their customers because you'd rather go with the option that charges more for the same service and can simply take your money and run at any given moment?

Your insurance provider is like most others in this country. That is the problem that Obama has tried to remedy, although he was unable to do so correctly due to the power and influence of this huge and abusive industry.

This sounds like an abusive relationship where the wife won't dump the hurtful husband because she's afraid to be alone. Don't worry, you'll find something better than the thieves who've taken all your money and left you out to dry. There are other fish in the sea.

Kia ora Cam,

Very well spoken, but I am sure the post referred to, was definitive and there was no meaning between the lines. You are being too kind.

I know exactly what you are talking about when referring to collusion as a means of eliminating competition. In this country we have a Commerce Commission, and laws to prevent this unethical practice.

Cheers, Trevor.

[Cam]

Originally Posted by Trevor

Kia ora Cam,

Very well spoken, but I am sure the post referred to, was definitive and there was no meaning between the lines. You are being too kind.

I know exactly what you are talking about when referring to collusion as a means of eliminating competition. In this country we have a Commerce Commission, and laws to prevent this unethical practice.

Cheers, Trevor.

The United States is unethical, though

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by Cam

The United States is unethical, though

If so, it can only be the fault of all the silly buggers who vote.

[K_Dub]

Originally Posted by Trevor

If so, it can only be the fault of all the silly buggers who vote.

That's the whole point! The corporations have more control over our elected officials than the voters. Thanks to campaign contributions making it economically impossible for outsiders to ever even get on a ballot, we only get to vote on folks pre-chosen by their investors. The return on that investment is a politician who will strike down things like the public option because it would hurt their next campaign.

"How bad are some of those leading our country?"

I'd ask "Who's really leading our country? The voters or the corporations?"

[dromano]

Originally Posted by K_Dub

That's the whole point! The corporations have more control over our elected officials than the voters. Thanks to campaign contributions making it economically impossible for outsiders to ever even get on a ballot, we only get to vote on folks pre-chosen by their investors. The return on that investment is a politician who will strike down things like the public option because it would hurt their next campaign.

"How bad are some of those leading our country?"

I'd ask "Who's really leading our country? The voters or the corporations?"

Obama & his administration are the "official" leaders of the country
Our political system has many influences. We The People (the bosses per the constitution) are low on the totem pole. Corporations, unions & special interest groups hold the high ground. The Dems in DC no longer listen to We The People. The lame stream media is in the tank with The One.

I believe the Messiah has us headed for single payer Federal controlled health care like Canada & the UK. Can you say rationing? Followed by death panels for us geezers.

The winners of our elections are determined by those that count the votes. November 2nd, a very important day.

[NikFu S.]

Federal health care or not, premium health insurance will still be available for those who don't like waiting in line.

The people counting the votes are not as vital to the corruption machine as the people pushing the propaganda and funding idiots like Glenn Beck who proselytize easily mislead people into believing outlandish things whom end up voting for resolutions to matters they believe in without actually understanding. Just off the top of my head Prop 8 is a good example of that. Clearly a violation of Constitutional rights but fundies and the innocently ignorant voted to pass it likely due to the influence of heavy financial/media backing of propaganda, and no it's not totally the Mormons fault.

Luckily there are honest people up there who are interested in things like equality, fairness, and other "socialist" ideals that allow multi-class free-market capitalism to work.

[dromano]

"socialist" ideals that allow multi-class free-market capitalism to work.

How does that work? Socialist ideals (justice) is why free market capitalism is not doing very well. We are being Cloward & Piven-ed big time

[NikFu S.]

This is just my armchair-economist opinion but I think a true free-market in the sense that the market can do what it wants without regulation to protect the working-class will lead to a sort of tyrannical corporate-fascist oligarchy. I know that word "fascist" gets thrown around a lot but bear in mind the corporation, while important, is not necessarily the "end result" of civilized progress. That I believe is true liberty which means the needs of the people need to come before the needs of the money.
Under a market that does not appeal to the people the only way the system can survive is if it bleeds the people which is contrary to the concept of liberty, conversely a people-friendly system can be prosperous for all parties involved, which is fair.

There are a few reasons why free-market Capitalism may not be doing as well as it should; greed, "moral" fundies, uneducated poor and young. I only expect the Corporations to keep their greed in check [as a prerequisite for fair success], but I think for them to expect that people will educate themselves and protect civil rights in the face of personal doctrines is naive, and I think they know this which may be why advertising works as effectively as it does.
If the market is to succeed, the money needs to get out of the hands of the wealthy and into the working class, but too many people consider liquid wealth as the best yard stick with which to measure their value as a person. The contests to become the world's richest and most notable makes for a lot of waste and self-centered behaviour.
I'm fine with the rich being rich, they've earned it, but we all know the cliches about wealth and power. The corporations have a responsibility to use their resources for the betterment of the people because after all, it's not like they just got rich on their own out of thin air.

[dromano]

NikFu S.

"That I believe is true liberty which means the needs of the people need to come before the needs of the money.
Under a market that does not appeal to the people the only way the system can survive is if it bleeds the people which is contrary to the concept of liberty, conversely a people-friendly system can be prosperous for all parties involved, which is fair."

Are you describing Social Justice?

[NikFu S.]

That may be a bit specific as I might not agree with some of the finer details of the theory, but sure, why not.

[Subie59]

"I believe the Messiah has us headed for single payer Federal controlled health care like Canada & the UK. Can you say rationing? Followed by death panels for us geezers."


You wish you had health care as good as Canada's. I suggest you try opening your mind. Maybe go on a vacation to Canada or Europe and get a taste of how other people in this world manage to survive with full health care.

[Motorsport-SVX]

So we just passed a Health Care Law in order to know what is in it; written by a committee whose chairman says he didn’t understand it; passed by a congress that didn’t read it and exempts themselves from it; Signed by a hypocritical-president who is a smoker; from funding administered by a treasury chief who didn’t pay his taxes; all to be overseen by a sergeon general who by military standards is obese; all to be financed by a country that is broke.


from:
http://www.ihatethemedia.com/ed-schu...w-ratings-down