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  #31  
Old 02-11-2010, 11:29 AM
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Re: This could be very dangerous: throttle cable

The box I've seen was separate from the airbag system, primarily for warranty-protection rather than accident investigation.

I have heard about the airbag computer storing accident data. One of my SVXes has an airbag. Maybe I'll take a look at the control module and see if I can figure out anything. Provided I can get at it without removing too much of the dash.
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  #32  
Old 02-11-2010, 12:29 PM
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Re: This could be very dangerous: throttle cable

Quote:
Originally Posted by b3lha View Post
The box I've seen was separate from the airbag system, primarily for warranty-protection rather than accident investigation.

I have heard about the airbag computer storing accident data. One of my SVXes has an airbag. Maybe I'll take a look at the control module and see if I can figure out anything. Provided I can get at it without removing too much of the dash.
It may be different over there. The US DOT requires this type of system with the recording of data in any vehicle that has an airbag computer.
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  #33  
Old 02-11-2010, 02:33 PM
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Re: This could be very dangerous: throttle cable

I think maybe the SVX was built before those DOT regulatons were written.

I had a looking at the wiring diagram in the USDM service manual. The airbag computer is not wired to any of the other control units or sensors. AFAICT It has absolutely no way of knowing anything about vehicle speed, braking, throttle, steering angle, rpm, gear or any other data that might indicate how the car was being driven prior to an accident.

The only thing it knows about are the two deceleration sensors in the front fenders, and these are just basically switches. A sudden impact closes the switch and the airbag gets 12volts and goes bang.

I think the SVX airbag "computer" is a very basic unit only really concerned with flashing error codes if there is a break somewhere in the wiring loom.
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  #34  
Old 02-11-2010, 06:26 PM
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Re: This could be very dangerous: throttle cable

Quote:
Originally Posted by b3lha View Post
I think maybe the SVX was built before those DOT regulatons were written.

I had a looking at the wiring diagram in the USDM service manual. The airbag computer is not wired to any of the other control units or sensors. AFAICT It has absolutely no way of knowing anything about vehicle speed, braking, throttle, steering angle, rpm, gear or any other data that might indicate how the car was being driven prior to an accident.

The only thing it knows about are the two deceleration sensors in the front fenders, and these are just basically switches. A sudden impact closes the switch and the airbag gets 12volts and goes bang.

I think the SVX airbag "computer" is a very basic unit only really concerned with flashing error codes if there is a break somewhere in the wiring loom.
Interesting to know
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  #35  
Old 02-12-2010, 12:47 AM
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Re: This could be very dangerous: throttle cable

The future of ALL drive by wire vehicles:

Lexus IS300 malfunction

The backstory according to Jalopnik is that this guy and a few others have installed aftermarket HID kits on their car, and it interferes with the steering circuits causing a sensor to give the wrong inputs to the servos which run the power steering. This isn't really Toyota's fault because they installed non-oem parts which caused it.

It gets me thinking about the SVX (remember the car this thread was started about ). We can all agree that this car was ahead of it's time, but perhaps that is it's fatal flaw. In two years I've had to replace my MAF, TPS, CD Player and the circuits for the auto-seatbelt. The fact is that you can not trust electronic equipment for more than about 10 years. I wouldn't do my job today on a 10 year old computer, and I surely won't be a decade from now. The reason there are classic cars still on the road is because they don't have any irreplaceable computers controlling their longevity. My first car was a '73 Scout and with points ignition and a huge alternator it could have survived an EMP. I doubt a single car being sold today will be able to survive to become classic cars.

I figure I can keep this SVX running (with help from here) no matter what fate throws at it, but if SVXs were any more complicated I wouldn't have a chance.

We'll see what these folks with modern Toyotas will be driving when I'm still cruising in my 28 year old SVX in 2020.
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Last edited by K_Dub; 02-12-2010 at 12:59 AM.
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  #36  
Old 02-12-2010, 04:03 AM
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Re: This could be very dangerous: throttle cable

Going back to the original post, I have had in the past throttle cables snap because of fraying and throttle cables stick in the sleeve because the multicore frays and delaminates.

The furring cable sticking up the sleeve was dangerous and scary.

These things happened in cars designed for direct carburettor actuation in LHD that had a convoluted cable run when built in RHD production.

Older cars with simpler mechanical controls are easier to maintain and fix and this is one reason why older cars are attractive to DIY people and home mechanics like us. As Phil mentions the newer electronic controls are seriously better designs because the control parameters can be varied per millisecond or per cylinder, yielding good economy [or power] and cleaner combustion. Among other benefits.

I see no harm in the engineers designing electronic control units that retain information on how a system broke down or how it was deployed. I do see a lot of harm in outside agencies such as police or insurance companies taking that safety based information out of context for other agendas.

Joe
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  #37  
Old 02-12-2010, 04:40 AM
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Re: This could be very dangerous: throttle cable and Big Brother

Quote:
Originally Posted by b3lha View Post
I have heard about a case where a driver, after an accident, claimed that his car had suddenly accelerated of it's own accord.

But the vehicle manufacturer was able to produce a detailed telemetry log from a hidden black box recorder on the car that showed the driver had been driving excessively fast for the whole journey.

Some manufacturers are fitting "black boxes" to high-performance cars so they can rebut warranty claims when the car has been tuned or abused. Some people adjust the ECU boost maps to get more power. If the engine blows up as a result, they reflash it back to stock and try to claim on the warranty.
Interesting Phil and not surprising.

My brother works for Renault. Their monitoring systems are now so sophisticated they can tell if you have not used the correct grade oil or have not changed it soon enough and use this to rebut warranty claims. This is happening more frequently now with the new urea injection diesel engines. If the engine breaks or dies because you did not follow maintenance advice or warning lights they will refute your claim and send you a copy of all the information they have on your usage in case you even remotely thought of taking them to court.

I am more troubled by the incoming "Surveillance by stealth" and the spurious justification of it by police on the basis it "can save even one life"

The last remark is in quotes because it is trotted out every year by high ranking police. It is used for
  • Reducing the blood/alcohol drink driving limits
  • justification for testing people on their way to work the morning after
  • justification for random stop and breathalize
  • justification for speed cameras
  • justification for contractors using speed monitoring equipment
  • justification for blaming "speed" for the majority of road deaths

Having lost my first wife in a road accident I don't lightly pooh pooh their anti speed platitudes. Inappropriate speed and reckless speeding is a very relevant issue. But it's only one issue. My beef relates to the fact that their total focus on moderating driver behaviour allows or facilitates the roads people to blame all accidents on speeding while refusing to admit that the roads network here has serious problems of visibility and safety, as is demonstrated by accident black spots.

Rant mode off.

The next big brother device being proposed in England is to have all cars fitted or retro fitted with a transponder like those used for tolls[ or possibly GSM units]. Using these in conjunction with a nation wide network of pickup units the police will be able to know where your car is 24/7, what average speed you are doing between pickup units, where you stop, where you go to the loo. Ostensibly the reason for the use of them is to toll cars using certain heavy traffic motorway routes at certain times. If they get the green light on using it the police will push monitoring of the system using the "if we can save one life" argument.

I don't buy it. If saving life is the only or primary goal they would be much more successful merely by forbidding children from walking to school, forbidding old people, anybody, from crossing the road, forbidding cyclists from riding in heavy city traffic. And so on.

It's coming because they want it, but I for one will be resisting it.

Joe
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  #38  
Old 02-12-2010, 10:11 PM
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Re: This could be very dangerous: throttle cable and Big Brother

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Originally Posted by svxistentialist View Post

Having lost my first wife in a road accident
Joe
Sorry...

Keith
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  #39  
Old 02-13-2010, 07:15 AM
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Re: This could be very dangerous: throttle cable

Thanks Keith.

It's a long, long time ago but it still hurts.

As I say when it directly affects you like that you take good driving skills and general road safety pretty seriously.

That's why it cuts me up when I see all the focus on speeding as a response to accidents. I have this theory why they do that:

If they put up speed cameras and police radar traps, they pull in money from the public.

If they identify and fix all of the bad visibility and bad surface sections on the roads, it costs them money.

Which are they gonna do?

You guessed right first time!! That's exactly how worried they are about saving life.


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  #40  
Old 03-03-2010, 08:42 PM
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Re: This could be very dangerous: throttle cable

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Originally Posted by kwren View Post
Pay attention... They aren't messing with the software because they don't have anything else to do.

Keith

DETROIT — At least 15 Toyota drivers have complained to U.S. safety officials that their cars sped up by themselves even after being fixed under recalls for sticky gas pedals or floor mat problems, according to an Associated Press analysis.

The development raises questions about whether Toyota's repairs will bring an end to the cases of wild, uncontrolled acceleration or if there may be electronic causes behind the complaints that have dogged the automaker.

The new complaints raised eyebrows in Congress, which has held three hearings on the recalls in the past week and is investigating Toyota's safety problems.

"I am deeply concerned that NHTSA has received this many reports of possible sudden unanticipated acceleration even after these vehicles have received Toyota's recommended fix," said Rep. Bruce Braley, D-Iowa, who serves on one of the committees investigating Toyota.

"It's critical that we get to the bottom of this problem as quickly as possible."


NHTSA says 52 people have been killed in crashes linked to Toyota's acceleration problems. Toyota has blamed mechanical causes or drivers pressing the wrong pedal. However, some question whether the electronic throttle system or a software glitch may be at fault, rather than a mechanical issue involving pedals.

In the meantime, complaints keep coming in from drivers who say the fix has not solved the problem, including at least 15 filed with NHTSA in the last two weeks, according to an AP analysis of the agency database.

Keith
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