Going Mini Van with a supercharger of course

[huck369]

To get back on the subject of a mini-van, I put in my vote for a VW Vanagan <sp?> with a EG33 conversion for your stable

[Mr. Pockets]

Originally posted by Chicane


I think I've provided more evidence than you have.

I know you do, and that's your problem, Your definition of evidence is severely flawed. Your personal experience accounts for a smaller fraction of the population and the cars produced than the evidence I present.

Originally posted by Chicane
CR and JD power can report about 'consumer reported problems', but when import owners consider problems merely 'maintenence', I don't think you have a fair game going on.

Again, this is an assumption you're making based on your limited experience. Who's not playing the fair game?

Originally posted by Chicane
Like I said, I've made none of this stuff up, everything I've said is from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. IF YOU have driven a chrysler for an extended period of time, and it gave you a ton of problems, then I think you have some truth to what you're saying. But until then....

- Rob

Ah, I see how it works. I have to argue the same way you do.

Okay, fine. I've driven many Chryslers, some for extended periods. For the most part I thought they were inferior products.

Okay, so that's evidence, right? Because it's my personal experience and therefore so much less biased than, say, a study of thousands of owners and their cars?

Rob, my personal experience and your personal experience mean very little. Compared to a study of, say, ten thousand owners, your experience has the weight of 1/10,000th of that study.

As for your assertion that Domestic and Japanese car owners report their problems wiht cars differently, you have zero evidence to support the claim. I think it's an interesting one, and worth studying, but for now it's nothing more than an arbitrary assertion. It is not 'evidence,' and neither are any of your opinions.

Not only that, but the same could be said of you and your Neon owner friends. You say the Neon is bulletproof reliable and the only big problem the car had was that head gasket. I bet, as enthusiasts, you have a totally different definition of 'problem.' Also, as enthusiasts, you're far less likely to give an unbiased opinion of the car and its reliability. This is why none of your arguments hold up, Rob, and why you're consistently frustrated with people who 'don't get it.' There's nothing imperical about your 'evidence.' It's all opinion or anecdotes.

The real evidence is still against you. Show me a study that suggests any American car manufacturer produces cars as reliable as Toyotas and Hondas. Show me that study or go pound sand.

[Chicane]

Originally posted by upnygimp
Rob, I have a question for you. If you're so in love with Neons and theyre so superior, why don't you sell your SVX and buy a Neon? I mean, you could probably get three or four of them for whatever you sell your SVX for.

I'm not in love with them, I just think they're good cars. They're fast, cheap, and handle well. The reason I'm in an SVX and NOT a neon, is that neons have HORRID interiors composed of cheap rattly plastic, they lack AWD, fit and finish is horrible, and they don't have the luxo-exoticness of the SVX.

- Rob

[Chicane]

Originally posted by Mr. Pockets
. Show me a study that suggests any American car manufacturer produces cars as reliable as Toyotas and Hondas. Show me that study or go pound sand.

I'll provide a full retort tonight, but for now I want you to find out WHY a toyota would be more reliable. Do they use magic engine parts? Do they bless the car with holy water? And while we're on that subject Nick... riddle me this: According to Consumer Reports (which gets their info from owners, not doing actual unbiased testing), what BOOK do you think they'd label as the best book ever?

The bible.

Think about that.

- Rob

[Subafreak]

Are you guys still going at it?

[wawazat??]

The next step is drag religion in to this thread......oh, I see that's been done.

The last step is a my computer is better than your computer and this should be just about done.



Todd

[Chicane]

I'll drag it in purely to point out to Nick that just because something is popular opinion doesn't make it true.

- Rob

[mikecg]

Originally posted by Chicane
Weak dude. If you wanted a fast minivan, you should have gone chrysler.

http://www.turbominivan.com/

- Rob

I'm thinking there dyno numbers are a little wacky. 197HP and 407 for the torque??? From a 2.5L???

[Noir]

Work has been busy, so I haven't been to the boards. No Mr. Robert, you did not scare me away.

Originally posted by Mr. Robert
When have I done this??? Please cite examples.

You do it all the time. If you can not realize that you do, then reread all of your own posts. You will find examples there. I don't think I need to waste my time to copy and paste them here. Let's take a poll shall we? If other members who have read your posts and think that you do not make blanketed statements with double standards, please post and let me know that I am wrong.

Originally posted by Mr. Robert
Do you consider quality and reliability the same thing? I think price is also a factor in the 'quality' of the vehicle.... if you only have 5 grand to spend, you can get tons of different cars, ranging in quality and reliablity. If you feel like ignoring that entire factor.... then you do that.

I've already explained what quality and reliability is. We are talking about quality and reliability of two manufacturers. Toyota and Chrysler. We are talking about the build of a vehicle in regards to quality and reliability, not price. If you want to add in price, it is for another discussion for another thread. Let's stick to what we started with and not change the topic of discussion.

Originally posted by Mr. Robert
Like where? You seem to know what you're talking about, so please explain in greater detail where they get their information..... from dealers? From owners? From independant testing? In what country? By who?

I sure do. They get their sources from owners. They conduct their surveys in many countries and create reports for each country individually. Owners consists of all different ethnic backgrounds, education levels, classes, and even people of different computing preferences. That's how they can get a PROPER sample of EXPERIENCE for a PARTICULAR MODEL and MANUFACTURER along with the ACCOUNTS of PROBLEMS associated with that product over a span of TIME.

Originally posted by Mr. Robert
So by that rational, the SVX is not a quality product because the problems it's given me so far are bad wheel bearings, warped brakes, bad idler pulley, worn cam seals, worn power steering o-ring, and bad front axles.... right?

Look Mr. Robert. You have it all wrong. Yes the SVX has problems but whether it is a quality product or not depends on what you are comparing it to. If there is nothing to compare it to, then it is a quality product. If compared to GEO metro, then it is a higher quality product. If compared to a LEXUS high end coupe, then it is a lower quality product. Our topic of discussion is Toyota versus Chrysler and that Toyota is of higher quality and reliability than Chrysler. Stay focused Mr. Robert, I know it is difficult.

Originally posted by Mr. Robert
JDPA doesn't seem to be counting things like this...they instead seem to focus on 'fit and finish', panel gap, stuff like that. That's cool.

JDPA surveys include everything from mechanical to accessory quality so it's more than just 'fit and finish', panel gap and stuff like that. That's why it's so cool.

Originally posted by Mr. Robert
But you can't say that the 'well built toyota' is more reliable than other cars. My friend purchased a toyota camry with 180k on it, thinking that toyotas last forever. At just over 200k, the engine died. Needs an overhaul, rings, and everything.

I don't care about your friend. I care about the figures that show quality and reliability ratings from millions of people versus 1 person. We are not telling stories here. If we are I can talk about the hover car my friend made that can fly 200ft in the air. We can save that for another thread.

Originally posted by Mr. Robert
This is my point. I know CHRYSLER engines that have gone well past 200k, without needing overhauls. Toyota builds quality products, but I think it's completely ignorant to say that Chrysler can't be used in the same sentence as quality, considering their vehicles are LOADS cheaper, a lot cheaper to repair, and can last just as long as a toyota/honda.

I'm glad you know some Chrysler engines with 200k+ miles. I did not say that Chrysler can't be used in the same sentence. I did however say that the reliability and quality of Toyota is higher than that of Chrysler. Once again, let's not cloud the discussion with price. We are talking about the quality and reliability of two companies not about the quality and reliability of two companies based on price.

Originally posted by Mr. Robert
It is NOT the marque that decides how long a vehicle is going to last.... it's MAINLY how the vehicle was taken care of. From my experience, people who own imports GENERALLY take better care of their cars than people who own domestics. Why? Part of it is probably higher resale value. If your 10 yr old buick is only worth 2 grand, people don't want to put much into it, and they probably don't care if they change their oil on time. If your 10 yr old Acura is still worth 5-6 grand, spending a little money on it to take care of some of its problems is less of an issue.

Once again, this doesn't illustrate anything. We are talking about reliability and quality of a vehicle. The JDPA reports is for people who have owned their cars for 3 years. The problems they have documented are problems that they experienced during that time. Examples of problems: Window switch failure, broken grips, power seat motor failure, the classic NEON blown gasket issue, etc. Stuff not based on 'how well they treat their cars'.

BTW - That's one of your blanketed statements. people who own imports GENERALLY take better care of their cars than people who own domestics. This is another discussion for another thread. One would think however that a higher quality car manufacturer would engineer something that would survive everyday abuse/wear and tear.

Originally posted by Mr. Robert
I did read this. Which was why I mentioned european cars. They are 'viewed' as reliable according to most consumers, but they really aren't much better than anything else on the market, in some cases worse, in some cases better. Just like everything else.

I'm glad you read this. So the report that you think is full of garbage has some truth to it. This is the best statement you've made this whole thread. Now if those European cars keep dropping in the eyes of the consumer (which it did in last year's bogus report as you put it), then eventually they will fall below your beloved Chrysler. Unfortunately, they have a ways to go.

Originally posted by Mr. Robert
But if something is broken/worn out/needs to be replaced, that is a PROBLEM. This is EXACTLY what I was talking about. You own your SVX, and something goes wrong with it. You pay for it, and you fix it, and you call it 'preventive maintenance'. Call it whatever you'd like, but if the same thing needed to be done on my old neon, you'd call it 'unreliable', and 'needed repairs', not 'preventive maintenance'. This is EXACTLY what I was referring to above, and you just proved my point. Thank you for that.

Mr. Robert. These are not the same things. You may find it hard to imagine, but I do not wait until things break before fixing it. When I purchased my first SVX, I had one leaky seal. A leaky seal is a problem. I had my mechanic replace ALL the seals (i.e. even the ones that were not leaking). Correct me if I'm wrong to consider replacing all the 'other' seals preventive maintanence. I did the same for the rotors. Rotors were good, I chose to get better rotors. Is that considered 'needed repairs'? I think not.

Originally posted by Mr. Robert
So the SVX, with its premature transmission failure, undersized brake system (hence warping rotors), extremely heavy trunk lid, and tiny rear wheel bearings is a bad car.... because of the number of problems or failures expeirienced from bad engineering or production..... that's what you're saying, correct?

Yes those are problems.

Originally posted by Mr. Robert
As for high quality and problems... look at VW. Excellent fit and finish. Great panel gap. Great interior materials and ergonomics, along with a 'fresh' style applied to exterior. Very high quality. Better quality than toyota, in many cases. However, they have problems with window regulators, and coil packs, along with a few other things I probably don't even know about. Does this mean that Toyotas are better 'quality'? I don't think so. Quality is different from reliability.

Nope, I already stated what quality is. Quality is not the ergonomics of the vehicle. It isn't the look of the pretty panels or the gaps between them. It's not the materials of the seats or fuzzy suede you like to rub your face on. That is LUXURY. We are not talking about luxury, but quality. If you read further in the JDPA's definition of quality, you will find what the rest of us is talking about. The world doesn't revolve around Mr. Robert. (actually it does because it's based on everyone's own sphere of perception -- a very interesting topic, but once again that's for a different discussion in a different thread.)

Originally posted by Mr. Robert
Again I thank you for referring to me as a kid. It's also cute that you've adapted to use 'dig' to further attempt to get me going. You can pretend you're being polite and mature, but you aren't.

Ok, I've corrected myself. I'm calling you Mr. Robert from now on. 'DIG'. I thought that was the hip lingo that people use nowadays. I saw you use it replying to Dayle, I thought I was missing out on something. You mean, it's negative? Wow, I was following you're example. Note to self - Do not use lingo that Mr. Robert uses. It may be offensive to others or show immaturity.

Originally posted by Mr. Robert
Again I thank you for referring to me as a kid. It's also cute that you've adapted to use 'dig' to further attempt to get me going. You can pretend you're being polite and mature, but you aren't. Anyway, I ran over to JDPA's site. You can click on used vehicles, and it'll give you an 'out of 5 star ratings' system for each vehicles various aspects...but nowhere did I see a 'list' of problems... could you perhaps explain how you found that list? Then, as a comparison, I could do the same with other vehicles. I'd also like to point out that their data is mainly composed of OWNER REPORTED PROBLEMS, which is what I was trying to explain earlier. If a neon had the same problems as your SVX, YOU call the SVX's problems 'preventative maintenance', and do not report it as unreliable, but the neon owner, who does report the problem, views the car as unreliable, since all their friends with SVXs NEVER claim to have any problems, only 'preventative maitnenance'. It's bull****. A problem is a problem, and the SVX has PLENTY of them. Does this mean it's a bad car? I don't think so.

As you know, the only way to get PROBLEMS EXPERIENCED THROUGH OWNERSHIP data is through surveying OWNERS.

As for the problems I mentioned, I found those searching for common problems associated with Chrysler minivans. I saw many of the same problems mentioned on the same site. I'm sure that you can receive a list of problems from JDPA for each make and model, but be prepared to s h e l l (interesting bad word filter) out some money because that information is not free. Another place you can find those problems is through the nationwide database of VIN numbers and problem histories per manufacturer. They list problems there for each make and model as well.

By the way all problems for the SVX are documented out there. Just like all the problems with Neon. I've always said a problem is a problem. And I never said anything about any cars being bad cars. You may want to reread exactly what we are discussing here.

Originally posted by Mr. Robert
A few things: 1. Isn't maintenance done to prolong the life of the engine the same thing as your loved 'preventative maintenance'??? It seems like it's the same thing to me.... 2. I'm not talking about cars with new engines..... I know neons with over 250k on their original engine. They run fine. 3. Major mechanical work? Couldn't this also be called preventative maintenence? Even if there WAS major mechanical work done (Like on my friends camry), isn't that just prolonging the life of the engine(the same thing as #1)??? Your arguments aren't holding any water here. Sorry

I'm sorry Mr. Robert. Let me frame what I'm saying another way. The engines that you have seen reach 200k+ miles may or may not have had issues that you know or did not know resolved for that engine to make it to 200k miles. It is a known fact that routine maintanence is required for engines to make that number. For example, a blown head gasket on a NEON at low mileages is not considered 'routine' maintanence. Other problems that are not considered 'routine' maintanence effects the 'quality' and 'reliability' of the mechanical aspect of a car's rating. Will the car make 200k+ if that gasket wasn't repaired? Was it routine like a oil change or a tune up? You tell me.

Originally posted by Mr. Robert
If you really do mean QUALITY, I would agree. Their interiors are not as nice, the fit and finish is not as nice, and they generally have bigger panel gap. But reliability wise? It's not up to the car manufacturer. It's how the car is taken care of. Like I said... toyotas don't last long if you don't take care of them. No car does.

Wrong again. Quality is not the luxurious aspect of the car which has nothing to do with the discussion. Reliability is up to the manufacturer. Would you buy a car that will fail every 2 days leaving you without transportation? Treatment and maintanence for the vehicle are beside the point. Those two topics are intended for another discussion. It does not pertain to the topic at hand. Please keep to what we are discussing and not stray off the topic. I know it's hard, but reread the initial posts of the thread before commenting. Thanks!

Mr. Harry

[Noir]

Originally posted by Chicane


I'll provide a full retort tonight, but for now I want you to find out WHY a toyota would be more reliable. Do they use magic engine parts? Do they bless the car with holy water? And while we're on that subject Nick... riddle me this: According to Consumer Reports (which gets their info from owners, not doing actual unbiased testing), what BOOK do you think they'd label as the best book ever?

The bible.

Think about that.

- Rob

Mr. Robert. I have an answer for your riddle. Consumer Reports is 100% correct in stating that the Bible is the best book ever. I would consider the best book ever to be one that has sold the most copies. The bible has many versions printed, translated, and sold worldwide. Many families may have multiple copies of the same thing. Majority of the hotels have one copy of the bible in each room. Free copies have been distributed world wide for converts into Christianity.

To me the Bible is a book of stories. Whether you like the stories is a matter of opinion. Remember Vanilla and Chocolate Mr. Robert.

I would imagine the 2nd best book in the United States would be the dictionary. A great book in my opinion.

[Noir]

Mr. Robert. I read over your response to Mr. Pocket's post.

Consumer Reports and JDPA maybe flawed or they may not be flawed, but they do provide a survey of people's responses to the topic at hand. You can however provide another study to refute their claim, but until then you really do not have anything.

I see that you are trying to support your claim not by furnishing proof, but disproving someone else's proof, but both CR and JDPA's report can't be entirely false because they represent a good sample of the population. Of that group many include doctors, lawyers, engineers, mechanics, car salesmans, teachers, macdonald workers, road construction people, uneducated people, mac users, pc users, mensa initiates etc.

My preventive maintanence is based on people's reported problems. If I did not have the data in regards to problems with my SVX for example, I would have addressed the issue if I was surveyed. My attention to detail, data, problem solving, and sense of perfection is what pays my bills and supports my lifestyle.

Also remember that these reports are generated with a factor of time included. I don't know about CR, but JDPA surveys owners for a period of 3 years. Anything outside of that is not included. Anything under a year is not included. The sample is large enough to encompass all the frequent problems whether one person experienced it or not. When I stated my number of problems to be 50% more for Chrysler compared to Toyota that's a big difference. Almost 100 more reported problems is a big deal.

Got to go get dinner...let's see what you have to say.

Mr. Harry

[Subafreak]

Take it outside will ya.





So....What are the stock HP. figures on the SC Previa?

[Motorsport-SVX]

it all started innocently with a well optioned
95 Previa, SC on btw with a factory intercooler
as I found out today !!!

[Noir]

saw a previa today. they look pretty sharp.

Originally posted by Porter
MONKEY! MONKEY BANANAPHONE!


that is all