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  #16  
Old 09-16-2009, 11:44 AM
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Re: Cash For Clunkers.....Figured Out!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARED 97 View Post
They claim 700,000 vehicles – so that's 224 million gallons /year.

That equates to a bit over 5 million barrels of Oil.
224 million gallons of gasoline equates to a bit over 5 million barrels of... Gasoline.
Since refineries typically can only produce 19 - 20 gallons of gasoline per barrel (42gal) of crude oil it would take ~11.3 million barrels of crude oil to produce the 224 million gallons of gas.

It still doesn't look very good but I just thought I'd point that out.
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  #17  
Old 09-16-2009, 02:42 PM
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Re: Cash For Clunkers.....Figured Out!!!

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Originally Posted by Maxo View Post
224 million gallons of gasoline equates to a bit over 5 million barrels of... Gasoline.
Since refineries typically can only produce 19 - 20 gallons of gasoline per barrel (42gal) of crude oil it would take ~11.3 million barrels of crude oil to produce the 224 million gallons of gas.

It still doesn't look very good but I just thought I'd point that out.
Yes, this is the same point I was making, except I zeroed on the inaccuracy of equating the saving of gas at $4 per gallon to that of crude at $1.80 a gallon.

As you point out, a gallon of crude only delivers about half a gallon of gasoline, so even looking at it that way, you are saving the equivalent of 10 million barrels of crude.
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  #18  
Old 09-16-2009, 10:57 PM
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Re: Cash For Clunkers.....Figured Out!!!

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Originally Posted by alanscouse View Post
Let me get this right . The government , ie the taxpayer , forks over $4500 for an old and often times perfectly good car . It then mandates that the engine be essentially destroyed , rendering the resultant hulk worth what , maybe $250 or at best $500 for parts . Instant destruction of $4000 worth of your money times the estimated sale of 700,000 vehicles , you do the math !! It stinks

Alan .
The parts can not be used. It needs to be crushed and chewed up. It is then sent to China to be recycled.

My point was not to reduce the debt of people, but that the country can not spend its way out of debt.
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  #19  
Old 09-17-2009, 12:31 AM
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Re: Cash For Clunkers.....Figured Out!!!

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Originally Posted by svxistentialist View Post
For another thing, and I accept your less efficient cars in the States probably would give only 25 mpg, but here in Europe anybody buying economical cars in schemes like you are discussing, none of these cars will do less than 40 mpg, most doing closer to 50 mpg. The gallons are Imperial and bigger than the US gallons, so 40 mpg here would be 33 mpg over there.
The main reason we don't have many diesels over here, at least not diesel cars, is thanks to GM in the early 80s, most Amercans associate diesel cars with noisy, smoky, stinky, gutless rattle traps.

Although the fact that aside from the VWs, the other diesel cars sold here are BMWs and Mercedes-Benzes and Audis, which are mucho $$$, doesn't help either. I know I'd buy a turbo diesel Passat or Jetta over a Prius, similar mileage, cheaper fuel, way lower price, and in a pinch you can get fuel behind McDonald's.
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  #20  
Old 09-17-2009, 10:24 AM
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Re: Cash For Clunkers.....Figured Out!!!

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Originally Posted by dcarrb View Post
The thing is, the point of the "cash for clunkers" program (which I believe was badly structured and probably did very little good for the long haul) was economic stimulus, not debt reduction. GM maintains their uptick in sales has enabled them to keep a production line or two rolling. Ask the folks cashing those paychecks (and spending money, and paying taxes) if the program was worthwhile.
Couldn't we have achieved the same goal by simply giving GM and the others an automatic $4000 towards a customer's purchase of a new car (up to $3 billion gross), and then still had all of those used cars able to be sold in the private sector? That would have cost Joe Taxpayer the same amount (when accounting for the up to $500 for the junked cars), generated the same amount of sales and taxes, and also generated additional tax revenue from the inevitable used vehicle sales as well (not to mention affording economical transportation for those who purchased the used cars).

If it's all about the environment, we could have simply given tax credits only to qualifying vehicles; say, vehicles that get 35+ MPG combined. Wouldn't that have made more sense?

I still think it would be ridiculous as it's basically squeezing the taxpayers to "stimulate" sales for a private company. Hey, I'm having tight times and a thin wallet; can I get some hand outs to stimulate my economic growth? If Uncle Sam gives me just $500,000,000 (only 1/6th of the Cash for Clunkers budget!), I promise to circulate all of it in the economy by purchasing real estate, vehicles, and maybe even a business or two. I only want to provide jobs, pay taxes, and stimulate the economy! Look at me; I'm a philanthropist!
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  #21  
Old 09-17-2009, 12:04 PM
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Re: Cash For Clunkers.....Figured Out!!!

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Originally Posted by Hondasucks View Post
The main reason we don't have many diesels over here, at least not diesel cars, is thanks to GM in the early 80s, most Amercans associate diesel cars with noisy, smoky, stinky, gutless rattle traps.

Although the fact that aside from the VWs, the other diesel cars sold here are BMWs and Mercedes-Benzes and Audis, which are mucho $$$, doesn't help either. I know I'd buy a turbo diesel Passat or Jetta over a Prius, similar mileage, cheaper fuel, way lower price, and in a pinch you can get fuel behind McDonald's.
I love my turbo diesel. It's noisy, smoky, stinky, but certainly not gutless... and 20.2mpg on an 800 mile road trip last weekend, which included 150 miles of aimless driving around, you can't beat it. A gasser would have gotten 14-15mpg tops.
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  #22  
Old 09-20-2009, 01:51 AM
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Re: Cash For Clunkers.....Figured Out!!!

I love mine too. I love the looks I get from the hippies, like I'm the sole cause for "global warming" because I decided to drive my truck to work...

And Zandar, you're forgetting that the real reason for cash for clunkers was to get those old, evil polluting gas guzzlers off the road, in addition to stimulating the economy. I agree that they should have just given you the money for it but under the condition that the car be sold, and then the VIN would be applied to a blacklist so nobody else could get a "clunker credit" on it again. Yeah, I've seen a lot of clunkers that are worn out, rusted out, beat to hell vehicles that you'd be lucky to get $500 for, but I've seen a lot of otherwise perfectly good vehicles go to waste. We had an Explorer with 35,000 miles on it come in, leather interior, etc... Not a scratch on it...
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  #23  
Old 09-21-2009, 11:46 AM
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Re: Cash For Clunkers.....Figured Out!!!

Quote:
And Zandar, you're forgetting that the real reason for cash for clunkers was to get those old, evil polluting gas guzzlers off the road, in addition to stimulating the economy.
That's true; and, as ARED_97 pointed out in the first post, this equates to a whole quarter day's worth of oil a year.

But wait! As Svxestantialist and Maxo have mentioned, those figures are skewed! It's a vast, right-wing conspiracy!

If the vehicles were driven 15,000 miles a year instead of 12,000, and the cars replacing the 15 mpg clunkers were getting 40 mpg, that's actually 625 gallons a year; not 320.

So, we're at 438 million gallons a year (rounding up), not the paltry 224 million ARED_97 said.

Further, if each barrel of crude makes roughly 20 gallons of gasoline, that's now almost 22 million barrels a year, not the measly 5 million ARED_97 estimated.

That means, instead of saving a ridiculously trivial 1/4 day's oil consumption, we save a whole day's! As long as all vehicles being replaced had 15 mpg and the replacement vehicles had 40 mpg and they were all driven 15,000 miles a year . . .

All that, plus we're sticking it to OPEC by reducing our oil consumption by 0.00274%! Take that, man-made global warming!
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  #24  
Old 09-21-2009, 12:11 PM
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Re: Cash For Clunkers.....Figured Out!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zandar View Post
That's true; and, as ARED_97 pointed out in the first post, this equates to a whole quarter day's worth of oil a year.

But wait! As Svxestantialist and Maxo have mentioned, those figures are skewed! It's a vast, right-wing conspiracy!

That means, instead of saving a ridiculously trivial 1/4 day's oil consumption, we save a whole day's! As long as all vehicles being replaced had 15 mpg and the replacement vehicles had 40 mpg and they were all driven 15,000 miles a year . . .

All that, plus we're sticking it to OPEC by reducing our oil consumption by 0.00274%! Take that, man-made global warming!
It's already been pointed out back in the thread that the primary goal of the measure is to stimulate the economy, not to make savings per vehicle.

I don't suppose it has occurred to anyone that the reason this huge saving in oil use only represents 1/4 day of total USA oil use could be because maybe the USA uses too much oil per capita on a day to day basis? No? Nobody over there sees it that way?

Energy consumption per capita for major areas of the world.



At the rate you guys are using it up, little wonder it is getting scarce and getting expensive.

Joe
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  #25  
Old 09-21-2009, 12:32 PM
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Re: Cash For Clunkers.....Figured Out!!!

It's pretty pointless to go back and forth on this. Someone who reads timeforchange.org will never see eye to eye with someone who reads globalwarminghoax.com. Both have plenty of facts and such, but the driving force behind their readership seems to be more of a worldview issue than anything else.

People who look at the US and see rampant consumerism come to the logical conclusion that the US takes all of the world's resources for itself. People who look at the US and see rampant productivity come to the logical conclusion that the US will use more resources than most others because the US is doing more.

The truth is shouting out there, but most people simply aren't listening.
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  #26  
Old 09-21-2009, 01:18 PM
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Re: Cash For Clunkers.....Figured Out!!!

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Originally Posted by Zandar View Post
The truth is shouting out there, but most people simply aren't listening.
The truth is, it takes an ocean of petroleum to keep our economy afloat, we're utterly dependent on the stuff, it not going to last forever, and it will take much more than feeble "cash for clunkers" programs to remedy the situation. But first we've got to own-up to the problem.

dcb
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  #27  
Old 09-21-2009, 04:15 PM
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Re: Cash For Clunkers.....Figured Out!!!

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Originally Posted by Zandar View Post
It's pretty pointless to go back and forth on this. Someone who reads timeforchange.org will never see eye to eye with someone who reads globalwarminghoax.com. Both have plenty of facts and such, but the driving force behind their readership seems to be more of a worldview issue than anything else.

People who look at the US and see rampant consumerism come to the logical conclusion that the US takes all of the world's resources for itself. People who look at the US and see rampant productivity come to the logical conclusion that the US will use more resources than most others because the US is doing more.

The truth is shouting out there, but most people simply aren't listening.
This is prevarication and head in sand stance.

I don't read either of those websites, it just happened to be the first one that came up for a Goggle search.

This is a link from the USA official EIA site depicting world oil usage.

Wrong too, I suppose, or at least debatable.

The truth is certainly shouting but people hear only what they want to hear.

There's no global warming, at least I can't feel it. Climate change is the biggest hoax on the planet.

North Americans are not really using more oil per capita than any other nation in the world, even though their own figures say so. And if they are actually using more than everybody else, well it's obvious they actually need it, so what's the fuss?

Hmmmmmmm.

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  #28  
Old 09-23-2009, 03:44 PM
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Unhappy Re: Cash For Clunkers.....Figured Out!!!

I'd just as soon let this thread die off, however I saw the full list of clunkered cars today (PDF)and had a little heartbreak.

123 SVXs died in less than a month's time.

Full list is attached below. I'm going to drink until the stats leave my memory for good. Some brain cells just have to go.
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  #29  
Old 09-23-2009, 04:25 PM
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Re: Cash For Clunkers.....Figured Out!!!

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123 SVXs died in less than a month's time.
more than i expected. uGh!
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  #30  
Old 09-23-2009, 04:50 PM
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Re: Cash For Clunkers.....Figured Out!!!

"Democratic Party" Making your Subaru more rare every day

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