way OT one for the Parents.

I usually never involve anything about my family in threads as I just don't like to share so bear with me here. I'm looking for some help with my daughter and bed time. She's wonderful, very bright, generaly very good and I love her dearly but she just refuses to go to bed. I feel like we've tried everything we have read on the subject, keeping regular schedules, making a nightly routine.... it just doesn't work. Put her to bed at 8:30 and she is finaly asleep at 10:00 or even 11:00, and by that time everyone in the house is in a terrible mood. What is worse is that I work 4 nightes on 4 nights off so half of the time it is my wife dealing with it all alone. I'd be willing to call this a phase but it has been going on for well over a year now.
Here is what we have going right now if any one can critique it. at around 7:30 we give her the initial verble news that bedtime is coming we are usually finishing up dinner and this supposedly give her the mind set that she will be going to bed soon. Most nights we take a 15 -20 min walk (but not every weather/work permited otherwise we play a board game) then we come back and its time to get washed up 1/2 the nights bath the other not (of course that is also felxible depending on the day some days she just needs a bath.) After that Pj's are on she has some kind of a snack (nothing to sugary thats just going to have her bouncing off the walls). right around now its off to bed. She's tucked in her music is on and its bedtime. Inevitably 10 mins later she is sneeaking down the steps and the battle begins. Wich really sucka as any parent knows you don't want to end your day angry/upset with your children. Punishment wise we take privaleges mainly (no TV, no computer, no playing with your toys, no going outside to play...) tommorow she isn't going to her Pa-Pa's (my father in law) company Picnic because at 9:45 I got the call from my distraught wife and than AGAIN AT 10:00 a call to have a daddy daughter talk. So ofcourse she is upset and now the gradnparents are as well . She has even been spanked a few times (not beaten) but I loathe that and it doesn't work so I find no point in doing so. Ive taken making her stand in the corner when she gets out of bed (I figure than being up would be no fun) that works ok in "shortening the battle" but it hasn't stopped the event.
As a reward for going to bed she gets a sticker on a calendar that is counting down to a Disney vacation each sticker equals a "disney dollar" out of the possible 27 dollars she could have she has 6. thats on top of the praise that we give her.
Well now that I dumped all that out I just hoping for some advice or help with this problem. Like I said she is generaly a good girl cleans up pretty well has a good attitude with few exceptions she is good at stores....
Maybe I'm taking this to seriously but it has been going on for over a year and dhe starts school in about 2 months we need this fixed before it effects Kindergarden.
Sorry for unloading. Please any help you may have.


P.S. Not that I expect it but if you think this is the thread to make some joke like "beat her" or "strap her down", DONT it isn't even remotely funny.

[ensteele]

How old is she. You say kindergarden, so I guess she is around 5? Does she get up in the morning when she should? I know this is summer, and I guess she has not been going to school before, so maybe that is a bad question. I have a similar problem with my son, but not nearly as extreme. He always wants to stay up just a little bit longer. That turns into 30 min, or 60 min, but still past his bed time. He is 10, and the concequence is that he still has to get up in the morning when he has to. The problem is, if he is too tired, it is very difficult to get him up, just like trying to get him to bed, and no one is very happy. I have just tried to take the stand that if he is up, that is fine, but he can not come out of his bedroom after lights out. The lights stay out as well. If he thinks he needs water, he had better bring a water bottle with him, because he is to stay in there. The thought is that if he can not come out, and if he is board, he will go to bed and go to sleep. After he has missed enough sleep, he welcomes going to bed. He just stays up later than he should, and only sometimes an hour or so after his bed time. I know some people are morning people and others night people, but that doesn't make it any easier when they need to go to bed. I can relate to what you are going through. Good luck. I hope this helps, and at least you know you are not alone.

[Ron Mummert]

It's been a long time since I had one that young, but....
Oh... you didn't mention her age until the very last part of the story. I thought for a while, "whatcha' expect from a 16 year old"?
So I'll assume she's about 4-5 years old? And she's done this since she was 3-4? What time does she wake up? It could simply be that she's just not tired enough to fall asleep. I don't know what the latest pediatric theory has concluded as a "required" sleep time for kids this age, but keep in mind, they're all different, & WILL sleep when they're tired. The bigger the fuss about "bedtime" the more the "control" aspect enters into the picture. I don't think "punishment" is going to get you anywhere.
I seem to remember that my daughter would "pop-up" & come down stairs at odd times. We simply ignored her, & continued to watch TV, or whatever it was we were doing at the time. (No - not THAT).
If she lasted 'til we went to bed after saying good night to Johnnie Carson, so be it. I think her boredom with adults in their quiet time finally led to a self-imposed routine. Once kindergarten entered the picture, & lots of activities with lots of new kids became the norm, the desire to go to bed became her request, not ours.
Just one opinion - YMMV.

Ron (my baby will be 30 next month).

She is 4 going on 5 in November. She does get up around the same time every day. I try the same thing about the room but it just doesn't seem to work. I tell her stay in bed, you don't have to go to sleep but you have to stay in bed but no luck.
Thanks Earl for the support.

[Bobb]

Hi Driver, Is your daughter still Taking an afternoon nap? I think the caregivers like a couple of hours by themselves to get stuff done without a child to keep track off. So maybe naps are out. Personally I like a little nap in the afternoon but then I don't have to go to bed early. Take care, BOBB

Originally posted by Ron Mummert
It's been a long time since I had one that young, but....
Oh... you didn't mention her age until the very last part of the story. I thought for a while, "whatcha' expect from a 16 year old"?
So I'll assume she's about 4-5 years old? And she's done this since she was 3-4? What time does she wake up? It could simply be that she's just not tired enough to fall asleep. I don't know what the latest pediatric theory has concluded as a "required" sleep time for kids this age, but keep in mind, they're all different, & WILL sleep when they're tired. The bigger the fuss about "bedtime" the more the "control" aspect enters into the picture. I don't think "punishment" is going to get you anywhere.
I seem to remember that my daughter would "pop-up" & come down stairs at odd times. We simply ignored her, & continued to watch TV, or whatever it was we were doing at the time. (No - not THAT).
If she lasted 'til we went to bed after saying good night to Johnnie Carson, so be it. I think her boredom with adults in their quiet time finally led to a self-imposed routine. Once kindergarten entered the picture, & lots of activities with lots of new kids became the norm, the desire to go to bed became her request, not ours.
Just one opinion - YMMV.

Ron (my baby will be 30 next month).

I've been wondering about the ignoring thing as well. On the few times i try it she just ends up in my lap trying to have a conversation with me. I'm afraid I'm sending the message that getting up is ok? Also I have found her several times sleeping in my reclyner, or sleeping on the floor somewhere. One thing abou the kids being in bed is that I can sleep and feel that they are safe not tooling around the house in the dark where they can be tripping over something and bouncing off the coffee table. Maybe that's a paranoid view but it is part of it.

I will say she is definitely tired at night early when the habit started we cut off the day nap just to make sure. that and she is sending the siganls like twisting her hair and rubbing her eyes.

But thanks for the help I'll see about giving it a try.


P.S. I'm 26

I have a similar problem. Im also 26 and my daughter is 3 next month. Every night its a battle to get her to bed. She cries and cries and constantly gets out of bed. Sometimes i'll go check on her and she will be up playing and it will be like 10:30p.m. Last night she was up around the clock crying. I woke up to get ready for work this morning and she was sleeping in the hallway with a blanket and a pillow. No matter what I do its the same ordeal every evening. Im beginning to wonder if the babysitter lets her sleep too long for her naps.

[SHISVX]

i wonder what type of snacks you are giving at night. sugar just doesn't come in candy, you aren't giving her fruit by any chance are you? a glass of milk is calming and there is some type of chemical that makes someone sleepy. kinda like the triptophan (sp) in turkey that makes you tired after thanksgiving dinner. i can see the ignoring and how that would work. maybe she just wants attention. did you ever ask her why she repeatly gets out of bed, maybe she is lonely. does she have some type of comfort attachment to some type of stuffed animal or blanket that would help? sometimes kids aren't comfortable in their beds, sometimes they are scared. maybe a comfort item would help. X out the napping if she takes them, or limit them to a 20 minute one, only if she had a busy day. hmmm, i don't have children, but i learn a lot about them from those book thingys. i have friends that have kids, and the ignoring idea works for them. it is hard, but once the both of you get use to it, it works. good luck!

Kelli

[lee]

I've got four kids ranging from 15 to 27 years in age, so that makes me 4 times as likely to give bad advice - unless of course this is an exponential thing - probably is.

My advice:

1. Listen to Kelli about milk - warm milk really does have calming effects. Since she's upstairs (right?) she might feel you are too far away for comfort - the scared thing has real potential. My house has 2 bedrooms upstairs, 2 down. My daughter slept much better after we traded bedrooms around and she was on the same floor my wife & I slept on.

2. Listen to Ron, he's MUCH older and undoubtedly wiser than me. After the novelty wears off, adult quiet time/conversations get pretty boring and abandoned for quiet playing in their room. I never found punishment for sleep to be effective - and we did try once or twice.

Closing comments: My wife & I don't sleep the same amount of time, and none of my kids required the same hours of sleep. The baby, now 15, was the worst. He quit napping at around 18 months old, and by the time of Kindergarten was going to sleep around midnight and getting up at 6AM without anyone waking him. Today I'd say his average school night is bed at 1:30-2:00AM and up at 7:00AM (trust me, you don't want to know his summer sleep cycle).

[huck369]

I'll put my vote in for the ignoring too....but make sure there is nothing that intrests them going on, no shows that they'll like, something like the History channel , or CNN works pretty good to bore them to slumber, don't let them strike up a conversation...tell them you want to listen to the news, or talk to your wife about work.

I've got 3 daughters, all are different, but my youngest, has been the hardest to deal with in this area, punishment doesn't seem to work on her, but it did on the other two, so every child is different.

Hope you get yours figured out, as I know how upsetting it can be...

[wasions]

Kelli's right about the snacks. Milk, or perhaps a little (just a little) sharp cheese (it also helps the teeth). Anything else will make her digestive system work, which can have the effect of keeping her awake. Now I know we sometimes like to take naps after a big meal, but really, it's not the same.

Also, try to play the games before supper, if you can. It's easier to stop playing if there's something important to do (like eat). Before bed - read to her. Nothing is more important at her age anyway.

But before you do anything that I might recommend you should know that I wasn't that great a parent.

my advice should really have no bearing on this situation since i'm 22 and don't plan on having kids until i'm 30 (if ever)

however i think i should say that i disagree with the "ignore" thing.. it never feels good to be ignored, especially by people who love you.

just out of curiousity, why bother making her go to bed if she isn't planning on falling asleep? like, if she's been falling asleep at 11, why not try putting her to bed at 10:30? wear her out, have her come help you change your oil.. i don't know, i really have no idea about kids, but i'm just throwing some thoughts out there

for some reason, my own childhood seems to stick out more clearly in my memory than i think it should..

-adam

[CigarJohnny]

You say the snacks are not too sugary that she has at night. Cut the sugar out all together at night. My son, who turned 9 today, is extremely sensitive to sugar. During the school year he is not allowed any sugar between 6pm on Sunday until he gets home from school Friday afternoon. We saw an immediate improvement with his school work, focus, and memory. It was the best thing we ever did and I highly suggest you try it. It will allow her little body to relax. She may just be very restless from the sugar. Even a slight amount can cause it. If she has a sweet tooth there are plenty of sugar free options.

The other thing you may want to investigate are red dye allergies. Red dye can cause the same restlessness in children and adults. Look at the ingredient listing the foods you give her.

As far as you having conversations with her and allowing her to sit in your lap when she comes downstairs I feel you are making a mistake. All you are telling her is that it is ok afterall to leave her room. While I feel the punishment route will not work with her I also feel you should avoid any positive enforcement of her late night visits, which you are definitely giving her.

My son is a bear to get up in the morning but he is no matter how much sleep he gets. He is allowed to stay up late during summer vacation so long as he remains in bed and reads or play with his GameBoy or other toys quietly. During the school year if he is too hard to get up we make him go to bed even earlier until his response time in the morning improves. Then we up his bed time to the standard time. If he is still hard to get up he goes to bed earlier yet until we see an improvement.

My daughter, about 1 1/2 years old now, is no problem to put to bed. She comes to us with her blankie and nuk when she is tired. Jackie and I are hoping it stays that way. She is an early riser, much to our chagrin, and awakes bright eyed and bushy tailed.

Please take my advice on the food front if only for a short time to see if there is any improvement. I think you will see some. Best of luck!

[Subafreak]

You would think with two kids I would have some good advice but seeming I had my first one when I was 18, I never made my daughter go to bed. She would stay up as late as she liked partying with us, sometimes till 3AM. It was never really a problem and now she at age 8 usually falls asleep around 8 or 9, but she still has to get up at 6AM to go to summer camp so that helps. My son who will turn 3 tommorow, stays up till 11 and even when he finally does go to sleep and we put him to bed, he gets up and sneeks into our bed in the middle of the night, and he squirms and scratches and pushes and drives me crazy but if you try to put him back in his own bet it's going to be an all night battle anyway so we let him stay. He still has to get up at 6AM so I can take him to daycare and he is still easier to wake up than my daughter. This parenting thing is more of a learn as you go thing, you just do the best job you can and hope they make it through school and don't grow up to be socialpathick killers and get high paying jobs that they can support you with.

Thanks for all the replies, Its funny but I would never dream of posting this on any of the other forums I frequent. I'm just going to go ahead and make some blanket replies. instead of quoting everyone.

As far as Snack time goes it's usually something pretty mild a glass of milk and some gold fish, or some popcorn sometimes its ice cream but it never really seems to make a difference what it is. Kailey only ever drinks Milk or water just like Mommy (I wish i was happy with one of those two as well) so there is no "jucing up" I'm going to watch snacks closely but it just seems like that is a variable I can rule out, I could give her the same snack two nights in a row and get two different results. I've also never noticed her getting hyper or anything from having sweets, its not really a common practice to begin with but she doesn't seem to be bouncing off the walls or anything after eating a pack of fruit snacks.

As far as just letting her up till she falls asleep, that really isn't an option, sure some nights it is ok if I'm off or Mommy is off but there is alot of days when she needs to be up at say 7 to go to her grandmas for the day and that means she needs to be in bed earlier, Not because she is hard to get up in the morning but because by mid-day she is cranky, tired, and quickly becomes a brat. Any parent who has taken a tired child shopping knows what I mean.

Another consideration is this What if my wife worked all day and is tired at 10 but my daughter thinks she should stay up until 11? Is my wife supposed to stay up or try to stay up. Its like I said bedtime is time for us to be "off duty" so to speak. If the kids are in bed its safer to go to bed because then they aren't roaming around getting into things that could be harmful. Think about it would anyone here take a nap in the middle of the day while your child was unattended? Maybe 99% of the time everything will be fine but its that 1% that keeps me awake. Look at the Lyonel Tate thing he killed that little girl in the middle of the day While the mother who was supposed to be watching them was sleeping. A year ago I watched something on the news where a little by climed into a dogs cage and was mauled while his aunt that was supposed to be watching him was sleeping. Seriously how many parents have caught your children in the middle of a very dangerous situation that you were able to stop before someone got hurt. Of course she could still get up in the middle of the night and hurt herself but all things considered I just feel better knowing she's in bed sleeping.

Now on top of that we are trying to establish a semblance of a routine. So she goes to bed at a certain time and is not only able to get up at a certain time but function that day as well.

I'm thinking about the room thing, about maybe moving her downstairs, and I'm thinking about the ignoring thing but there is just a time when she needs to be in bed.

Again thank you everyone very much for the replies and advice.