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  #916  
Old 01-24-2010, 03:51 AM
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Re: SVX Engine cooling "Again & Again"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dessertrunner View Post
Well put Harvey. Have a great day.
Tony
Yeah I agree too, this makes sense.

Now guys do you think that the temperature of water in both banks is equal? Or there is still a difference since the pump flows water to one bank before the other?
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  #917  
Old 01-24-2010, 03:58 AM
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Re: SVX Engine cooling "Again & Again"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dessertrunner View Post
Trevor,
I know it sounds strange but in a closed loop system it is impossiable to supply postive pressure to the suction of the pump no matter how big the pipe between the two. As strange as its sound it took me a lot of head scratching to get my mind around it but it is a fact and I have confirmed it to be true.
If the pump is with out restriction then the coolant turns up at the pump inlet and any pressure the pump inlet would have been supplied with will be lost by the pump pumping faster. The pump will just pump more which will cause any pressure gains to be lost. It makes sense because at some point the coolant flow and pump revs balance.
Tony,

Unfortunately you are arguing over a point of difference between us which does not exist. You raise matters which are not in debate.

I understand that in effect you are stating that circulating pressure, at the inlet/suction side the pump, can not exceed the outlet pressure. I agree and have never stated otherwise. What is more, if there is a circuit having very little resistance between the pump outlet and inlet, the circulating pressure within the circuit will amount to very little. In any event the the lowest pressure point will occur, immediately after the maximum point of restriction.

Circulating pressure is dependent on resistance/restriction within the circuit and can only be measured as a difference point to point within the circuit and is no way related to gauge pressure. Gauge pressure i.e. that above atmospheric, is not directly involved in the efficiency of circulation, but does have a profound side effects as I mentioned when discussing your test rig.

It would appear that you theorise that suction applied by the pump is restricted by the inlet pipe, to the extent that the pump is being prevented from drawing in as much fluid as it is capable of pumping out. For this to be true, the pipe must constitute the highest point of restriction within the circuit. There has been no evidence presented to support such a prospect.
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  #918  
Old 01-24-2010, 04:24 AM
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Re: SVX Engine cooling "Again & Again"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironhydroxide View Post
OK, I have surfaced once before in the whole scheme of things, but now that i feel that there is more to say here than is being said, as there has been a lot of Bashing going on recently. I wouldn't be surprised if I get flack for this, but i am doing it anyway.

I totally agree with Dessertrunner. There may be more things that are causing the Cooling Problem, but one large one is the restrictions the pump has (ie. flow, max RPM, etc.) and one of these restrictions is the volume of liquid able to be pulled through the T-Stat cover.
If so the radiator outlet pipe size is the issue being debated.

Quote:
Just to put it in perspective to those who think that if a pump can push (displace) a certain amount of water through a certain size pipe, it should be able to suck the same amount through the same size pipe. Try Sucking through a straw as hard as you can till your lungs are full. Then try blowing that same amount of air out through the straw. It is (for one) easier to blow air out of the straw than to suck it into the straw.

Here are some links that i feel should be read in context of this topic. (even for those who think they already know it all, it may be a good refresher) *Cough trevor
You are raising points which are not in debate and your theories are untenable.

Quote:
now it is back to watching intently until I again feel that my comments may be of some actual use to the many other readers here who don't post just cause they feel the testing should be commanded by them. (but those who do don't seemingly suggest many different or constructive tests other than slowing the pump down, or drilling the vanes)
Please read more carefully and you will comprehend that there has NOT been a lot of Bashing going on. The major problem is in fact confined to a lack of understanding that which is written, as you exactly demonstrate.
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  #919  
Old 01-24-2010, 08:09 AM
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Re: SVX Engine cooling "Again & Again"

Ok trevor, you may obviously ignore what i say (or change it to mean what you want) as you have done so so many times. but i do not see how you change my comment about the pump and its restrictions

Quote:
Originally Posted by ironhydroxide
and one of these restrictions is the volume of liquid able to be pulled through the T-Stat cover.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trevor
If so the radiator outlet pipe size is the issue being debated.
While the radiator outlet pipe size is (or should be) directly proportionate (ie. the same size) to the t-stat cover inlet pipe, i felt it useless and a waste of time to post something so obvious and trivial. Here you seem to be picking at straws as to how to disprove anything i say.

Point proven, no need to go further in this aspect

Quote:
Originally Posted by trevor
You are raising points which are not in debate and your theories are untenable.
Now, now is it that immediately my theories are untenable when Suction CAVITATION (as you pointed out in your VERY FIRST POST in this thread could be a major issue) is caused when the "pump suction is under a low-pressure/high-vacuum condition where the liquid turns into a vapor at the eye of the pump impeller." -Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavitation


this low-pressure/high-vacuum spoken of is where the T-Stat cover comes into play. As every intelligent person would agree, a larger pipe can flow a larger amount of liquid in a shorter amount of time. When this is compared to a smaller pipe at the same length of time, the speed of the liquid through the pipe is less in the larger pipe, as well as the vacuum or pressure required to cause such flow (in a level plane) would be lower in the larger pipe.

Now, the t-stat cover "may" be able to flow the volume of liquid required to keep the engine cool, but in so doing, my theory is such that, the pump would be required generate a vacuum higher than that of the level where the pump begins to cavitate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trevor
The major problem is in fact confined to a lack of understanding that which is written, as you exactly demonstrate.
now, here is one of many points I can say that this thread is riddled with bashing (mostly from you). My understanding of bashing is a comment or implication (in your case smileys) that cause the intended reader any unneeded discomfort or lessens that persons feeling of self-worth (whether intended or not).

the ONLY time I feel bashing is appropriate is when it causes a constructive outcome.
Constructive outcome in this case: becoming closer to finding the solution to the problem at hand.

In your case, i do not feel that insulting other peoples intelligence causes any sort of constructive outcome.

You may scorn, change my words or the intended implications thereof, rant, comment, complain, or just be a general git about this, but the facts and understanding I (and many other I am sure) have of this and your comments are clear.

The following Paragraph is my translation of the sum of your comments, do not read if you feel that this could anger you (as this is not my purpose).








"Hey, try being smart, like me. Do it my way. What, your doing wrong. Do it my way. You have no understanding of this. Do it my way. You have no idea. That doesn't help at all. What?, you're doing it my way, well then make sure to do it perfect(but my way might not work unless you do it perfect). Hey, you don't know. Try being intelligent. I'm just trying to help." ETCETERA




Now, i have proven my point and no longer wish to be in this (or any sort of) discussion with you, as I feel that I have better uses for my time."

Now, to those who's usernames are not trevor.

I would love to be a part in helping find the cause of the overheating in the race engines. I do not have time or the means at the moment to do any sort of tests. IF i have an idea that could be useful, i will post it. But i will not try to enforce it. For the most part, those posting here are very intelligent, and will use any and all input to reach a verdict and solution. It is a joy to read through this thread and to observe how this has escalated from being nowhere to having a Cause, and possibly a solution.

Further we may just have the coolant paths in the block left to discuss, which for most of us would not be something we would lightheartedly tackle.
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Last edited by Ironhydroxide; 01-24-2010 at 08:14 AM.
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  #920  
Old 01-24-2010, 08:24 AM
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Re: SVX Engine cooling "Again & Again"

Trevor, I have read this entire thread from page 1, and a great majority of your posts come off quite blatantly as argumentative, standoffish, and have a consistently holier-than-thou attitude about them. While you may not personally consider that to be 'bashing', many people here would. I do recognize that you are quite intelligent (you are the one who found the flaw in my timing unit way back when, after all), but you are arguing directly against an irrigation pump engineer, a man with an apparent background in fluid thermodynamics, and an employee of NASA's special vehicles division. To me, that would seem something of a folly.

I think we should just sit back, take our drinks of choice, and take a break from the keyboards while people fit Tony's modifications to an SVX. Arguing about it on the internet while the solution awaits accomplishes little. Real-world testing makes or breaks the whole argument without a single word needing be typed.
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  #921  
Old 01-24-2010, 09:20 AM
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Re: SVX Engine cooling "Again & Again"

Well like I said, I need to fit the inline thermostat to Dan's car... Finish y break-in period with it and do some test runs... I can data log the coolant temp with revs and load with the hydra and I plan on it... If anything seems to jump out I will see about trying a couple variations of the larger stat cover..

Tom
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  #922  
Old 01-24-2010, 09:47 AM
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Re: SVX Engine cooling "Again & Again"

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomsSVX View Post
Well like I said, I need to fit the inline thermostat to Dan's car... Finish y break-in period with it and do some test runs... I can data log the coolant temp with revs and load with the hydra and I plan on it... If anything seems to jump out I will see about trying a couple variations of the larger stat cover..

Tom
Tom,
Thanks for the input! Looking forward to the data provided by your testing.
-Bill
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  #923  
Old 01-24-2010, 02:30 PM
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Re: SVX Engine cooling "Again & Again"

I have my head around how the pressure and suction works, this is the rule.

The flow through any part of the circut "AFTER" the largest pressure restriction must be greater in vacum then the flow through that restriction.

You need to take on board what Ironhydroxide said about the straw test and remember that the suction has to be a lot larger then the pressure side. In my example before with the stand alone pump I had 33mm from the outlet to the inlet of the pump. Under this set up the 33mm was not a restriction to the pump so there was no pressure reading BUT it was a restriction to the suction as it was to small and caused the pump to cavitate. When I changed the pipe to 45mm but left the oulet cap on the pump at 33mm that point became the point of restriction or pressure. The suction side at 45mm exceeded or staisfied the rule as it was larger in flow under suction then that the flow on the pressure side.

If we apply this rule to our standard cooling systems we find that the main top pipe etc are 33mm and the therm cover is 29mm we have a major problem. It is worth noting that any problem on the vacum side can be found with a vacum guage into the suction of pump.

SilverSpear in answer to your question about left and right bank temps there is still a 2-5 degree difference between them. It is not related to the position happy to explain if you want and how to fix.
Tony
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  #924  
Old 01-24-2010, 03:03 PM
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Re: SVX Engine cooling "Again & Again"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dessertrunner View Post
I have my head around how the pressure and suction works, this is the rule.

The flow through any part of the circut "AFTER" the largest pressure restriction must be greater in vacum then the flow through that restriction.

You need to take on board what Ironhydroxide said about the straw test and remember that the suction has to be a lot larger then the pressure side. In my example before with the stand alone pump I had 33mm from the outlet to the inlet of the pump. Under this set up the 33mm was not a restriction to the pump so there was no pressure reading BUT it was a restriction to the suction as it was to small and caused the pump to cavitate. When I changed the pipe to 45mm but left the oulet cap on the pump at 33mm that point became the point of restriction or pressure. The suction side at 45mm exceeded or staisfied the rule as it was larger in flow under suction then that the flow on the pressure side.

If we apply this rule to our standard cooling systems we find that the main top pipe etc are 33mm and the therm cover is 29mm we have a major problem. It is worth noting that any problem on the vacum side can be found with a vacum guage into the suction of pump.

SilverSpear in answer to your question about left and right bank temps there is still a 2-5 degree difference between them. It is not related to the position happy to explain if you want and how to fix.
Tony
Tony,
Wouldn't 2-5 degrees be within the error band of your instrumentation? I'd say that having the two banks this close would be a case of "good enough, let's move to the next problem"
-Bill
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  #925  
Old 01-24-2010, 03:12 PM
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Re: SVX Engine cooling "Again & Again"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomake Wan View Post
Trevor, I have read this entire thread from page 1, and a great majority of your posts come off quite blatantly as argumentative, standoffish, and have a consistently holier-than-thou attitude about them. While you may not personally consider that to be 'bashing', many people here would. I do recognize that you are quite intelligent (you are the one who found the flaw in my timing unit way back when, after all), but you are arguing directly against an irrigation pump engineer, a man with an apparent background in fluid thermodynamics, and an employee of NASA's special vehicles division. To me, that would seem something of a folly.

I think we should just sit back, take our drinks of choice, and take a break from the keyboards while people fit Tony's modifications to an SVX. Arguing about it on the internet while the solution awaits accomplishes little. Real-world testing makes or breaks the whole argument without a single word needing be typed.
I am aware that the use of explicit good English within this environment, can result in me appearing to some as, “quite blatantly as argumentative, stand-offish and have a consistently holier-than-thou attitude.” Accurately recording what I have to say in a dumbed down fashion is impossible. I do not post in order to boost an ego, therefore the situation does not concern me.

Many may conclude that mature debate constitutes “bashing”. Likewise any correction of errors. If so, again the situation does not concern me.

I exactly understand the credentials of those with whom I am debating and give credit accordingly. You on the other hand without evidence, indicate that I am not a worthy contender. I do not accept your judgement and will not stand aside.

I fully agree with your final paragraph. However it has been evident that some have had in mind, spending time and effort on the basis of what has been presented to date whereby nothing is proven. This has been my concern.

I have already commented that this has become a stupid thread. It is accepted that those debating may be stupid in spending so much time in doing so, but valid information has come to light and the exercise is proving interesting.

The above narrative no doubt again presents a quite blatant, argumentative, stand offish, and consistently holier-than-thou attitude. I make no apology.
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  #926  
Old 01-24-2010, 04:35 PM
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Re: SVX Engine cooling "Again & Again"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dessertrunner View Post
-------- When I changed the pipe to 45mm but left the oulet cap on the pump at 33mm that point became the point of restriction or pressure. -------
I have asked you to advise why the radiator outlet and pipe is too small. You have not done so, but now appear to confirm that what you actually think is involved, is a restriction within the pump cap, rather than the radiator outlet.

Quote:
-------- It is worth noting that any problem on the vacum side can be found with a vacum guage into the suction of pump.
(You confirm the arrangement involved in your earlier test, which forms the basis of the current theory.)

Exactly, and as I understand it, this is a point in the circuit which is situated after the radiator pipe and the point of inlet within the pump cap. As a result it must be presumed that the critical restriction involves the pump cap/cover rather than the pipe.

Altering the radiator outlet involves extensive work and cost as Tom has pointed out. You have made two modifications and tested both at the same time. Only an enlarged cap/cover may be required. Futile argument has become the order of the day.

As I earlier detected and pointed out, the major problem here invoves the need to communicate via the written word. I am confident that across a table, with the means to draw and sketch, we would be away like a house on fire.
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  #927  
Old 01-24-2010, 05:03 PM
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Re: SVX Engine cooling "Again & Again"

Wonder what is the record for the lengthiest thread on this forum?
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  #928  
Old 01-24-2010, 05:13 PM
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Re: SVX Engine cooling "Again & Again"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor View Post
I exactly understand the credentials of those with whom I am debating and give credit accordingly. You on the other hand without evidence, indicate that I am not a worthy contender. I do not accept your judgement and will not stand aside.
As you are so fond of saying in this thread, you have provided no evidence that you are anything but a person arguing with people whose credentials are not in debate. If you wish to resolve this grave error in my judgement, then it would appear the resolution is simple.
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  #929  
Old 01-24-2010, 05:18 PM
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Re: SVX Engine cooling "Again & Again"

Sorry I've been out of this thread for awhile Been fighting a chest cold and my computer crashed a few weeks back. Had to wait for a damn recovery/reboot CD from the manufacture


Can someone take/post/send me a picture of the OEM lower SVX radiator hose attached to the rad and pump. A straight on pic from below would be ideal.

I haven't been able to do a single thing here due to the above crap, but I did get the pump and thermo housing form the member here and I'd like to do a little testing before I dig into the next customer project I have scheduled up here.

I can't really go by anything with my WRX as it's not setup like you guys have. Different rad, different frontal area, WRX purge tank, etc, etc. There's absolutely no way I can replicate your cars' running status.


FWIW I have not been able to get this car to overheat, but again my system is different and it's also ~15-30F out here in the winter months.
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  #930  
Old 01-24-2010, 05:21 PM
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Re: SVX Engine cooling "Again & Again"

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Originally Posted by shotgunslade View Post
Wonder what is the record for the lengthiest thread on this forum?
as Dan proceeds to poke the bear with a long stick.....
-Bill
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