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  #31  
Old 06-10-2012, 07:54 PM
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Re: Building a 10,000 rpm NA engine.

Okay I will check the size Harvey.
In this photo of the under side #75 you can see on the left the return pipe.
In photo 74 you can see the pipe enter the sump this is at the fly wheel end of the motor.
Tony
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  #32  
Old 06-10-2012, 08:24 PM
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Re: Building a 10,000 rpm NA engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oab_au View Post
As you would know we have the 12mm wide pump, don't know of a wider one.
Have to be off some other engine.

Harvey.
If ours is a 12mm, what size is used in "the other engines"?
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  #33  
Old 06-10-2012, 08:33 PM
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Re: Building a 10,000 rpm NA engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by svxfiles View Post
If ours is a 12mm, what size is used in "the other engines"?
The 4 cylinders use a 10mm? I think.

Harvey.
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  #34  
Old 06-10-2012, 08:36 PM
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Re: Building a 10,000 rpm NA engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dessertrunner View Post
Okay I will check the size Harvey.
In this photo of the under side #75 you can see on the left the return pipe.
In photo 74 you can see the pipe enter the sump this is at the fly wheel end of the motor.
Tony
Thats the crank case breather, goes up the the separator cavity.

Harvey.
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  #35  
Old 06-10-2012, 09:16 PM
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Re: Building a 10,000 rpm NA engine.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/COSWORTH-HIG...sories&vxp=mtr

This shows up on MY computer, I can only hope it shows up here.
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  #36  
Old 06-10-2012, 09:20 PM
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Re: Building a 10,000 rpm NA engine.

BTW, I have only brought this forth to show the differance in 10 mm to 12mm oil pumps.
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  #37  
Old 06-10-2012, 09:43 PM
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Re: Building a 10,000 rpm NA engine.

It has a pipe that goes into the sump below the oil level so that makes sense.

Do you have a opinion on the cams used on this motor tha Bazza found.

Here is the list so Far

Engine:
TechWorks Engineering EG33 closed deck block with T sleeves
Ion nitrated isotropic finished crank
TechWorks Engineering coated main and rod bearings
Carrillo H beam connecting rods with ARP custom aged 625 rod bolts
TechWorks Engineering 100mm 10.25 compression pistons/moly graphite treated skirts/ceramic coated tops total Seal rings
TechWorks Engineering spec titanium Ti 17 wrist pins
TechWorks Engineering Custom ported Heads
TechWorks Engineering spec titanium intake valve with Crn coating
TechWorks Engineering spec titanium high temp exhaust valves with trick 2 coating
TechWorks Engineering custom 42CrMo4 cams 560/280 intake. 520/270 exhaust
TechWorks Engineering custom inner adjustable cam gears
CDF Racing custom outer adjustable cam gears
TechWorks Engineering Custom valve springs/titanium retainers
ARP 625 custom aged head studs
ARP 625 custom aged case bolts
Injector Dynamic ID2000-14-60 injectors
Custom fuel rails
Custom intake manifold
Twin 75 mm throttle bodies
Twin modified GT 3582r turbo’s
Twin Tial 42mm waste gates
Custom stainless steel headers
Custom designed Dry sump
Wizards of Nos programable progressive nitrous system
Areomotive 11107 gear drive fuel pump
Areomotive 13113 Fuel pressure regulators
Hydra stand alone 2.7 EMS with launch control

Seems TechWorks Engineering maybe a good sourece of parts for EG33's.

Tony
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  #38  
Old 06-11-2012, 03:02 AM
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Re: Building a 10,000 rpm NA engine.

Sorry it took so long Harvey had to make some parts for the factory on the mill.

Your answer,
The 2 galleries along the top are 14mm diameter, the one feeding the back bearings is the same length all the way throught to the back. No real reason why the back would run short of oil.

The outlet behind the pump that feeds the oil filter and bearing is 15mm.

I think the issue is flow.
If you think about it and I am remembering what Adam said about the oil pump. The cosworth is the same size as ours.


MY THEORY

I think the numbers tell the story a pump rotor of 12mm being 2mm more then the 4 cyclinder means the pump only has 20% more oil.
The EG33 has 7 bearings 2 more then the 4 cyclinder at 5. This means in simple terms the engine has 40% more bearings or bearings area. The even more bad news is it has 50% more power so how is 20% more oil going to do the job. A dry sump is the only way out of this one. No wonder Matt and other had bearing issues.

Tony
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1992 - SVX 255 K Wife (Want to stay Married so not allowed to fit SC)
1992 - SVX Pearl with black roof race car roll cauge etc ready to race. Ex Tasman Targa car.
1995 - SVX Green low k mint condiation.
1995 - SVX Rally car, ex Matts car. Now to be used on track.
1992 - SVX red & Black being converted to Mid Engine.
1995 - SVX Red 143,000 bit rough.
Owned 5 others Subaru back to a 1974 1400 GSR.

Last edited by Dessertrunner; 06-11-2012 at 03:04 AM.
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  #39  
Old 06-11-2012, 08:13 AM
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Re: Building a 10,000 rpm NA engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dessertrunner View Post
I see a oil problem that would explain Matt and Bazza's bearing failure. Also Harvey has been arguing that the back bearings are being starved. YT point about looking into this closer is correct.

I have just reread the standard oil pump flow data and conclude Harvey is 100% right (this time,). When you check the pump specs at 5,000rpm it pumps 56Lpm but its only at 43psi keep in mind that the blow off valve is set at 85psi. That is bad news if you image that the system is call for oil but there is not enough to go around then it will go to the place of least resistance "WHICH IS NOT THE BACK OF THE ENGINE" in other words dead bearing.

I fully appricate that oil pressure over revs is not a linear relationship but you would have to rev the motor to 8,800 to blow off the pressure valve. The other point worth keeping in mind is that the friction of oil is far greater then water so pressure loss getting oil to the back bearings could be as 20psi which means the back bearing would well and truely be starving.
Tony


Just to clarify, my bearings never failed and I've never done a big end to date

I only saw the massive oil surge in the video replay and also noticed my oil pressure below what I was comfortable with so I chose to rebuild the engine, nothing worse than turning up to a track day and having something fail and ruin the day. My only oiling problem was the stuck sump which was never built to handle ridiculous G forces. This hopefully is now fixed with a dry sump setup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by svxfiles View Post
IOur rods are supposed to be fine at normal RPMs, but the stock studs are the weak link.
It ALMOST costs as much to upgrade to ARP studs as it does to get some better rods.
.
You can simply run EJ20 ARP head studs, around $225 on ebay. It's only the central piston that needs to be pinned down nicely. The ones in my EG33 are 6 years old hehe.

http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/i.html?_f...All-Categories


Quote:
Originally Posted by smc View Post
One of the major problems I can see is for cooling. You may want to go with an electric water pump thats independent of the crank. At the speeds your looking to obtain, stock style of pump will be experiencing cavitation like crazy and will be trying to push more air than water. Effectively stalling the flow of coolant.
That, and the coolant would be moving to quickly through the system to effectively remove heat from the engine block.

Best way to combat this is with a high volume automotive electric water pump. It will happily be pumping away at what ever rpm your engine is running at.

Feel free to correct me if im wrong here.

Could be an idea using an electric pump to feed the mechanical pump. From my own testing, using 2 x inline pumps on my pool I was suprised to see that a little electric pump feeding the big electrical pump would remove all cavitation and increase flow nicely. It actually removed the need to prime the big pump in my case. Would be the same with the car as the flow was about the same.

I've never tested like Tony did with the EG33 pump, but I had no issues revving an EJ2X water pump to 8500+ rpm for years with many different engine combos with a lot of power and I honestly don't see how the EG33 would be in issue when upgraded as per Tony's recommendations.


Quote:
Originally Posted by oab_au View Post
The 4 cylinders use a 10mm? I think.

Harvey.
That's correct. They started making some 11mm ones for the 4 bangers when they started using dual AVCS - must take a fair bit of oil to drive the solenoids etc.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RallyBob View Post
Don't forget that Frank Aragona told me and Jack that the stock crank was very reliable until about 9500 rpms. Then they failed repeatedly. So he went the billet route to spin 10,500 reliably.
Interesting... in the days of F1 turbo engines they had the same thing... 25:12 in... crank failyures due to resonance. Wonder if that's the issue here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbB1qwhKaaE

One other thing to note Tony, Andy's 1000 bhp EG33 ripped the stock oil pump to pieces... cannot find the pics but it's smashed.

Also with those Techwork cams they're massive hehe. For the EG33 NA, might be an idea to copy some Porsche type cams and or get Harvey to design them. Those ones above are for a turbo application and with turbo cam selection it's really something that can be done blind folded.. pretty hard to get wrong... the turbo tends to make things work even if they shouldn't. I'd definetely go solid buckets and find the lightest everything else in the valve train. The only worry I'd have is the later STI's (V5 STI+) all went to far bigger bucket diameter than the old ones - I wonder if that engineering change is RPM related?!

Last edited by bazza; 06-11-2012 at 08:22 AM.
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  #40  
Old 06-11-2012, 11:12 AM
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Re: Building a 10,000 rpm NA engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bazza View Post
The only worry I'd have is the later STI's (V5 STI+) all went to far bigger bucket diameter than the old ones - I wonder if that engineering change is RPM related?!
With Jack's EG33 (and Frank's for that matter), the large lobes on the camshafts required all sorts of grinding adjacent to the buckets, and even the underside of the rocker covers needed grinding to clear the lobes.

Frank told me that on the later cam designs he ran he had to have the base circle diameter reduced as he was at about .550" (13.97 mm) valve lift. Jack's engine only has .460" (exh) lift max, and we still needed a bunch of clearancing.

A bigger bucket diameter would have alleviated the first problem anyway....
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  #41  
Old 06-11-2012, 01:08 PM
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Re: Building a 10,000 rpm NA engine.

I think you guys know already, but I'm in the process of building an engine as well. So far I have not taken the block and heads to the machine shop, so I'm in a position right now where I can still do a lot. But, my goals are a bit different from you guys'. I am planning on only revving it to 7500, and letting a well-sized turbo do most of the work. The power goals are not very ambitious, but I'd like to see at least 300 at the wheels. 350 and I'd be ecstatic. So if anyone has any suggestions for me I'd love to hear them.

I am not sure whether a dry sump would be the way to go in my case, since I'm not planning on revving the crap out of it like you guys. But if there are improvements to be had, then I'm all ears, and I'm not ruling out a dry sump if it can be done reasonably inexpensively.

Some miscellaneous info/thoughts/questions:

Arias carries EG33 head stud sets for $300 (cheaper than 2 $200 sets of EJ20 studs): http://www.atomicspeedware.com/ej33svx92-97.aspx
If anyone wants the sizes/part numbers for the studs let me know as I have them written down somewhere.

Is there any way we could make a pump that's a bigger size than our stock pump? Sort of like the cosworth 12mm pump that replaces the 10mm EJ pumps? Maybe machine one that's 15mm instead of 12mm?

I still really like the idea of switching to a timing chain - what all would need to be done in order to make that happen?
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  #42  
Old 06-11-2012, 02:14 PM
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Re: Building a 10,000 rpm NA engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RallyBob View Post
With Jack's EG33 (and Frank's for that matter), the large lobes on the camshafts required all sorts of grinding adjacent to the buckets, and even the underside of the rocker covers needed grinding to clear the lobes.

Frank told me that on the later cam designs he ran he had to have the base circle diameter reduced as he was at about .550" (13.97 mm) valve lift. Jack's engine only has .460" (exh) lift max, and we still needed a bunch of clearancing.

A bigger bucket diameter would have alleviated the first problem anyway....
YT should chime in here about all the fun () he had converting Dan's engine to solid buckets and figuring out the right thickness shims to use for each bucket. I believe he also had to work on the underside of the rocker covers.

Bill
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  #43  
Old 06-11-2012, 02:17 PM
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Re: Building a 10,000 rpm NA engine.

Is there agreement that what we're looking for is more oil flow rate not increased pressure? My impression is that we're already at a 12mm pump and they only alternatives available only increase pressure (?).

Bill
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  #44  
Old 06-11-2012, 03:42 PM
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Re: Building a 10,000 rpm NA engine.

Subscribing...

We really should document all achievements in making the EG33 better in one sticky thread.
Some threads are getting lost, and info forgotten. Hope someone could spare the time to do such thread.
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  #45  
Old 06-11-2012, 04:51 PM
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Re: Building a 10,000 rpm NA engine.

Hi Danny I agree and will try to document some of this as we go. Maybe we need to add a bit of structure as you suggest.
Suggestion
What about having a break out group pick a person to head that group and they go and solve one problem. The one that comes to mind is the springs and lifters on Cams that will enable maxium lift. In other words not the actual cam just what has to be done to make maxium lift.
Need to pick a head person and a team to work with that person.

What do you think????


Tony
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1995 - SVX 700,000 K Mine, DMS Struts to lift car 2in. Tyres Wrangler Silent Armor 235/70R16, PBR Radiator. 6 speed with DCCD and R180 rer diff, Heavy duty top strut mounts front and rear. Speedo correction box fitted. New stero (gave up on the old one). Back seat removed and 2 spare tyres fitted for desert driving. ECUTune SC sitting in the box for the next SVX.
1992 - SVX 255 K Wife (Want to stay Married so not allowed to fit SC)
1992 - SVX Pearl with black roof race car roll cauge etc ready to race. Ex Tasman Targa car.
1995 - SVX Green low k mint condiation.
1995 - SVX Rally car, ex Matts car. Now to be used on track.
1992 - SVX red & Black being converted to Mid Engine.
1995 - SVX Red 143,000 bit rough.
Owned 5 others Subaru back to a 1974 1400 GSR.
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