The Subaru SVX World Network   SVX Network Forums
Live Chat!
SVX or Subaru Links
Old Lockers
Photo Post
How-To Documents
Message Archive
SVX Shop Search
IRC users:

Go Back   The Subaru SVX World Network > SVX Main Forums > Technical Q & A

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16  
Old 01-29-2012, 02:11 AM
svxfiles's Avatar
svxfiles svxfiles is offline
There's a storm coming.
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Wiley Ford WV
Posts: 8,650
Significant Technical Input Registered SVX
Re: Have had tranny cooler for over a year...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huskymaniac View Post
For example, you propose to put the cooler in series before the radiator cooler. Your point about temperature stabilization with regards to TC lockup makes sense. But, on the other hand, others have been pretty adamant that the main problem with these trannies is pressure, not temperature, and that bypassing the radiator cooler is more desirable due to the much reduced flow resistance.
I prefer to bypass the factory in rad cooler/warmer
but, if a customer wants something done a particular way,
and its not an obvious problem
I will defer to their wishes.
__________________
www.svxfiles.com
The first SuperCharged SVX,
the first 4.44 gears,
the first equal length headers,
the first phenolic spacers,
the first Class Glass fiberglass hood,
the first with 4, 4.44s in his driveway


Fiberglass Hood thread
My locker
4.44 Swap link
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 01-29-2012, 04:19 PM
oab_au oab_au is offline
Registered User
Subaru Gold Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Coffs Harb, Australia.
Posts: 5,032
Significant Technical Input Registered SVX
Re: Have had tranny cooler for over a year...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huskymaniac View Post
You are right Harvey, there are a lot of what ifs. But I am not inclined to get too crazy with the decision to address all of them. I was hoping people would provide personal experiences that would unveil a concensus of sorts. Crazy thought, I know.

For example, you propose to put the cooler in series before the radiator cooler. Your point about temperature stabilization with regards to TC lockup makes sense.
I have a Liberty 30R with the Towing Package that includes an extra air cooler. Yes strangely enough, that is where Subaru fitted it also.

Quote:
But, on the other hand, others have been pretty adamant that the main problem with these trannies is pressure, not temperature, and that bypassing the radiator cooler is more desirable due to the much reduced flow resistance. If true, the main reason to use an external cooler is to realize this bypass arrangement, not to reduce operating temperature.
Firstly, the cooler circuit has nothing to do with the line pressure.
The cooler circuit is only from the Torque Converter, where 90% of the heat is generated, to the cooler then back to the mainshaft, to cool and lubricate the gear train, and I can assure you that the drillings and passages in the mainshaft have more resistance, than the flow through the water cooler, has.


Quote:
I recall the argument being that abuse and/or poor maintenance and/or design flaws lead to a loss of a line pressure which leads to slipping/damage which, eventually, manifests itself as overheating. People propose this sequence of events as opposed to overheating causing damage. The cooler, if all of this is true, is not used to cool an already damaged tranny but to avoid it becoming damaged in the first place. One quandry is that a non-damaged tranny should be running cool enough (given sufficiently short fluid change intervals) and an additional cooler, run in bypass or parallel, would/could make the tranny run too cool.
Yes there were faults in the early cars, but the very high final drive gearing causes most of the trouble. When you are driving in D, at low speeds, every time you push the accelerator to increase speed, the Torque Converter works to reduce the gearing, this produces the heat that the cooler has to reduce, so if you drive in D at low speeds around town, you DO need the extra cooler.

Quote:
I am curious to see what my current operating temperatures are if I get to reading and take Tom up on his offer. But I can say that my car takes quite a long time to get to TC lockup temperature in cool, not cold, air temperatures so I don't suspect it is running very hot. Also, each time i have done a drain and refill, the fluid looked pristine and didn't smell any worse than new stinky ATF.
__________________
One Arm Bloke.
Tell it like it is!

95 Lsi. Bordeaux Pearl, Aust. RHD.149,000Kls Subaru BBS wheels.
97 Liberty GX Auto sedan. 320,000Kls.
04 Liberty 30R Auto Premium. 92.000kls.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 01-29-2012, 09:36 PM
Huskymaniac's Avatar
Huskymaniac Huskymaniac is offline
Uses the ignore feature
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Corning, NY
Posts: 1,872
Registered SVX
Re: Have had tranny cooler for over a year...

Harvey,

This is where is gets ambiguous or down right maddening. You say the restriction in the radiator cooler is not relevant but others on here, including some well respected folks like yourself, have said that the restriction in the radiator cooler is excessive. <---That's me screaming

On the high gearing, I have taken the advice and drive in 3rd around town or, really, at any speed below 60MPH/100KPH. But I will admit that the statement you made about the torque converter generating more heat because of the high gearing is a little confusing, given the picture I have in my mind on how it is working. I can see that being true if the high gearing causes low efficiency but it isn't clear to me yet why that would be the case. I can see why engine torque level would be higher to get a given HP output at the lower RPMs but it isn't obvious how the high engine torque, or high gearing in general, would hurt efficiency. However, I like that the water pump runs harder at the higher RPMs of 3rd gear and keeps the engine cooler during city driving. So I always figured there was at least that benefit if not the additional potential benefit to the tranny.

Once the tranny starts failing, I can certainly believe any tranny will start running hotter and start a downward spiral. I'm just not seeing how a perfectly good tranny would necessarily run hot. Some people have even said that this tranny is actually a well designed one, if not abused and well maintained. Lots of conflicting messages........

For those who are interested in testing your used ATF or engine oil, I have been told that polarislabs.com is the most reliable and also reasonably priced. For example, for $28 you can get the following data for engine oil:

Elemental Metals by ICP (will tell you about contamination from say, a dirty air filter, wear and leaching)
Water % by Crackle or FTIR
Viscosity @ 100C (ASTM D445) (will tell you how badly your oil is being sheared)
Fuel Dilution % by FTIR
Soot % by FTIR
Total Base Number (ASTM D4739) (will tell you if you changed your oil too soon, too late or about on time)
Oxidation/Nitration

So there will be no guessing. You will know if the oil is a good match for your engine/tranny and if you should be changing it sooner or later than you did for this test.
__________________
Tony

1996 Polo Green Subaru SVX LSi, 168,XXX miles, Redline D4 ATF, Redline 75W90 gear oil, K&N HP-4001 Oil Filter, Mobil 1 5W50 FS (3qt) and 5W30 High Mileage (4qt) Oil Blend, Motul RBF600 Brake Fluid, AC Delco A975C Air Filter, NGK BKR6EIX-11 plugs, Centric Rotors, Power Stop Evolution Carbon Fiber Ceramic Brake Pads
2005 Gray Acura RL, 165,XXX miles, Redline D4 ATF with Lubegard Platinum Protectant, Mobil 1 5W20 High Mileage Extended Performance Oil
2009 Red Toyota Venza, 123,XXX, Mobil 1 5W30 High Mileage Oil
1992 Red Ferrari 348 ts, 82,XXX, Redline everything
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 01-30-2012, 01:17 PM
92snowmachine 92snowmachine is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Denver, Colordado
Posts: 828
Registered SVX
Re: Have had tranny cooler for over a year...

my trans is newly rebuilt and never sees high temps except in the mountains. i have monitored the trans temp using an infrared thermometer on the trans pan. before the cooler it would run about engine temp but above 200 in the mountains. after installing the cooler it runs about engine temp but below 200 in the mountains. it really didn't change the temperature much during regular driving (hooked in series with radiator cooler/warmer). of note is that the engine also runs cooler in the mountains, it never got hot but would run above 1/2 which it doesn't do anymore.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 01-30-2012, 06:11 PM
THE NEW GUY THE NEW GUY is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Montreal
Posts: 193
Re: Have had tranny cooler for over a year...

My car ran out of tranny oil while driving at 120kmph because one of the hoses that goes to the radiator cooler went broken. Now, with new syntetic oil again, 3rd and 4th slip like if the car goes to neutral. it feels like in Power all the time. Some transmission shop recomends "Lucas" to reduce slip but it did not work. I wonder what happen if the transmission oil becomes too thick? or if I replace the ATF by engine oil SAE30? Does someone have any idea of what could went wrong on my transmission? any ideas?
Jose Carlos.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 01-30-2012, 09:42 PM
1986nate 1986nate is offline
Senior Member
Subaru Silver Contributor
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Meadville, PA-but I'll still travel
Posts: 4,672
Registered SVX
Re: Have had tranny cooler for over a year...

Quote:
Originally Posted by THE NEW GUY View Post
My car ran out of tranny oil while driving at 120kmph because one of the hoses that goes to the radiator cooler went broken. Now, with new syntetic oil again, 3rd and 4th slip like if the car goes to neutral. it feels like in Power all the time. Some transmission shop recomends "Lucas" to reduce slip but it did not work. I wonder what happen if the transmission oil becomes too thick? or if I replace the ATF by engine oil SAE30? Does someone have any idea of what could went wrong on my transmission? any ideas?
Jose Carlos.
Your high clutch failed when you ran it out of fluid driving at speed. That is all... Nothing will fix it other than a rebuild.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 01-30-2012, 09:44 PM
Green1995SVX's Avatar
Green1995SVX Green1995SVX is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Meadville, PA
Posts: 2,664
Send a message via AIM to Green1995SVX Send a message via Yahoo to Green1995SVX
Registered SVX Classic SVX
Re: Have had tranny cooler for over a year...

Quote:
Originally Posted by THE NEW GUY View Post
My car ran out of tranny oil while driving at 120kmph because one of the hoses that goes to the radiator cooler went broken. Now, with new syntetic oil again, 3rd and 4th slip like if the car goes to neutral. it feels like in Power all the time. Some transmission shop recomends "Lucas" to reduce slip but it did not work. I wonder what happen if the transmission oil becomes too thick? or if I replace the ATF by engine oil SAE30? Does someone have any idea of what could went wrong on my transmission? any ideas?
Jose Carlos.
You can't put motor oil in an automatic transmission. ATF doesn't just lubricate the transmission, it's also hydraulic fluid that's used to operate the transmission. This is not the first time that it has been explained to you that you have a failed high clutch.

It's not just a river in Egypt, yaknow.
__________________
2009 Volvo C70 T5
2008 Volvo S80 V8
2006 Range Rover Sport
2001 Audi S8
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 01-31-2012, 06:47 AM
THE NEW GUY THE NEW GUY is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Montreal
Posts: 193
Re: Have had tranny cooler for over a year...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green1995SVX View Post
You can't put motor oil in an automatic transmission. ATF doesn't just lubricate the transmission, it's also hydraulic fluid that's used to operate the transmission. This is not the first time that it has been explained to you that you have a failed high clutch.

It's not just a river in Egypt, yaknow.
ok, ok... im sorry if I insist in keeping some hope. I already bought a 94 operative tranny (from ebay) and a new engine hoist with balancer... also have some new oilseals from subaru bertera in springfield mass and new sparkplugs... Any warnigs before doing the change?
What would you recomend to clean the engine and the engine bay once the motor is out? I normally use diesel mixed 50-50% with gasoline... with compressed air.
btw, what doest jaknow means?
Thanks nate. Your straight answer.

Last edited by THE NEW GUY; 01-31-2012 at 06:51 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 01-31-2012, 07:17 AM
Conn SVX's Avatar
Conn SVX Conn SVX is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: NW ,Connecticut
Posts: 2,833
Registered SVX
Re: Have had tranny cooler for over a year...

Denial ( the Nile ) is not just. A river in Egypt . YaKnow ( you know)
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 01-31-2012, 12:05 PM
92snowmachine 92snowmachine is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Denver, Colordado
Posts: 828
Registered SVX
Re: Have had tranny cooler for over a year...

i use dish soap to clean an engine and empty engine bay. you risk messing things up cosmetically if you use diesel/gas, not to mention it's not too safe.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 01-31-2012, 06:04 PM
oab_au oab_au is offline
Registered User
Subaru Gold Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Coffs Harb, Australia.
Posts: 5,032
Significant Technical Input Registered SVX
Re: Have had tranny cooler for over a year...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huskymaniac View Post
Harvey,

This is where is gets ambiguous or down right maddening. You say the restriction in the radiator cooler is not relevant but others on here, including some well respected folks like yourself, have said that the restriction in the radiator cooler is excessive. <---That's me screaming
Well that is the internet isn’t it. You read a lot of different descriptions and opinions of things, evaluate them, then you decide what you think is the best thing to do.

Quote:
On the high gearing, I have taken the advice and drive in 3rd around town or, really, at any speed below 60MPH/100KPH. But I will admit that the statement you made about the torque converter generating more heat because of the high gearing is a little confusing, given the picture I have in my mind on how it is working. I can see that being true if the high gearing causes low efficiency but it isn't clear to me yet why that would be the case. I can see why engine torque level would be higher to get a given HP output at the lower RPMs but it isn't obvious how the high engine torque, or high gearing in general, would hurt efficiency. However, I like that the water pump runs harder at the higher RPMs of 3rd gear and keeps the engine cooler during city driving. So I always figured there was at least that benefit if not the additional potential benefit to the tranny.
I take it that by efficiency you are referring to the heat that is produced by the converter. Converters efficiency in transmitting power varies between zero and about 95%. When you hold it at stall with the brake on and the engine running at 2500 rpm, the power transmission efficiency is zero. It is transmitting the torque, but there is no power, although the engine is producing about 80kl watts, none of this gets to the turbine, it has all gone into the ATF as 80kl watts of heat. When the turbine is spinning at ‘almost’ the same speed as the impeller it will transmit 95% of the power, and the heat produced is proportional, at all the speeds in between.

The top gear overall ratio of your SVX is 2.4:1, the converter can lower that ratio to 4.6:1 at stall. So every time you push the throttle at low speed in D, the converter will lower the ratio and produce a proportional amount of heat. The more this is done, like in heavy traffic the hotter the ATF becomes, if it is in hot weather, the ATF gets even hotter. This is where the extra air cooler will help to lower the oil temp.


Quote:
Once the tranny starts failing, I can certainly believe any tranny will start running hotter and start a downward spiral. I'm just not seeing how a perfectly good tranny would necessarily run hot. Some people have even said that this tranny is actually a well designed one, if not abused and well maintained. Lots of conflicting messages........
I have always maintained that the gearbox is bullet proof; the Australian Rigolis 7sec WRX ran a SVX auto box as a rear wheel car. Put a lot of power through it.

Quote:
For those who are interested in testing your used ATF or engine oil, I have been told that polarislabs.com is the most reliable and also reasonably priced. For example, for $28 you can get the following data for engine oil:

Elemental Metals by ICP (will tell you about contamination from say, a dirty air filter, wear and leaching)
Water % by Crackle or FTIR
Viscosity @ 100C (ASTM D445) (will tell you how badly your oil is being sheared)
Fuel Dilution % by FTIR
Soot % by FTIR
Total Base Number (ASTM D4739) (will tell you if you changed your oil too soon, too late or about on time)
Oxidation/Nitration

So there will be no guessing. You will know if the oil is a good match for your engine/tranny and if you should be changing it sooner or later than you did for this test.
Harvey.
__________________
One Arm Bloke.
Tell it like it is!

95 Lsi. Bordeaux Pearl, Aust. RHD.149,000Kls Subaru BBS wheels.
97 Liberty GX Auto sedan. 320,000Kls.
04 Liberty 30R Auto Premium. 92.000kls.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 02-05-2012, 01:57 PM
stevek stevek is offline
Registered User
Subaru Bronze Contributor
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: uk
Posts: 129
Re: Have had tranny cooler for over a year...

@ SVX files. How on earth do you manage to stay awake for 27 hours at 60 mph? Hats off to you.
Just to throw my amateur opinion in here, in the UK we don't experience high temperatures that often. My SVX, left in 'D' at WOT changes gear with uncanny smoothness. It makes me suspicious because there must be some heavy clutch slipping involved to enable this IMO. My XJ8 also changes as smoothly but has more gears and lower final drive ratio and therefore seems happy.
In my bike experience clutch temperature causes swelling and the increase of free play at the lever, therefore it drags. Presumably, when an SVX high gear clutch suffers the same fate the operating system can't accommodate this expansion and compounds the problem, leading to failure. I reckon that any sort of cooler won't stop this happening, or rather won't cool it fast enough.
Driving the old girl in 3 till 80mph has worked for me so far, and the added engine braking inspires confidence. Plus the motor usually isn't far off it's magical 4500rpm+ transformation which is handy for overtaking/fun.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 02-05-2012, 04:28 PM
svxfiles's Avatar
svxfiles svxfiles is offline
There's a storm coming.
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Wiley Ford WV
Posts: 8,650
Significant Technical Input Registered SVX
Re: Have had tranny cooler for over a year...

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek View Post
@ SVX files. How on earth do you manage to stay awake for 27 hours at 60 mph? Hats off to you.

Left on Sunday around 3:00 PM Texas time.
Spent a short night is the nastiest hotel that I have ever been in in Arkansas.
Stopped out of my way on Monday night at my brother Marks place in Cincinatti Ohio. And got home dead tired on Tuesday.


Yea, I'm old.
__________________
www.svxfiles.com
The first SuperCharged SVX,
the first 4.44 gears,
the first equal length headers,
the first phenolic spacers,
the first Class Glass fiberglass hood,
the first with 4, 4.44s in his driveway


Fiberglass Hood thread
My locker
4.44 Swap link
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:12 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
© 2001-2015 SVX World Network
(208)-906-1122