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  #1  
Old 05-17-2007, 09:02 PM
STORMINORMAN STORMINORMAN is offline
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Question Yet ANOTHER power steering ?

Wife was driving the SVX home and all of a sudden the steering got "real tight" in her parlance. Almost all the ATF was gone, she was 500 yards from home and stopped, anyway (this time!). It looked like it had all puked out from under the cap, highly charged pink foam. NO REAL PREVIOUS POWER STEERING ISSUES, not rough, not binding not puking foam. It was making a bit of a whirring sound for a while...

Now there is very little power assist, if any.

I replaced the o-ring after totally cleaning out all the fluid in the reservoir: this stuff looked OK, still nice and pink, no chunks or dirt, no burnt smell.

Refilled the reservoir, disconnected the return hose, started up the car, it appears the pump is working as it pumped out some older ATF, then all of a sudden pumped out more pink foam, lots of bubbles!!!

I guess I don't grip the significance of there being a leak in either the high pressure output line or in the return line. If it were on the high pressure line shouldn't it be readily visible? As in "ATF streaming out"? If it's on the return side, is this where the bubbles & froth are coming from? Or can it just be a cracked hose or a loose connection?

If it's not the o-rig that is letting air into the pump could it be the pump itself that is cavitating, perhaps through the main seals? I'm getting a length of power steering 3/8th hose to cut to fit for the three or so pieces of return hose. I'm led to believe that the high pressure hose has to be either new or rebuilt by a hydraulic shop, but that one still does need to use dedicated POWER STEERING HOSE vs. fuel line, etc. on the return side, too...

The best info I have is that the A-1 Cardone P/N 215882 rebuilt pump is the same for both kinds of power steering: the difference seems to be in the rack and in the electrical do-hickey that screws into the output side of the pump.

Anybody out there with any ideas? I'm considering removing the belt and driving this down to the service station at the bottom of the hill to get this up in the air where I hear it is a lot easier to remove/replace the hoses.

How do we know when it is, in fact, a pump issue?
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  #2  
Old 05-17-2007, 09:51 PM
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Trevor Trevor is offline
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Obviously you must determine where the fluid was coming from. The strange thing is that you say that it appeared to have come from the cap. If so a valve could be faulty thus allowing back pressure.

Getting the car up on a hoist to investigate is surely the way to go. If it is a hose, you are not up for a very large outlay.
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  #3  
Old 05-17-2007, 10:32 PM
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So I see trans fluid on the driveway and think it must be a cooler line or something. When I pop the hood I see all the fluid is coming from under the tight powersteering cap and making a big mess. I assumed it was coming from a leaky seal internally on the steering rack. Well I had other issues to deal with at the time so I just left it be. the pump makes allot of noise (cavitation sound) but stopped spewing fluid. All steering is great feeling and I check the level weekly. this started 3 months ago. I am now blaming the pump due to noise it makes. Would like to see what you find out because if it were my rack I would need to replace all the lines attached to it due to mad rust on the lines and fittings.
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  #4  
Old 05-17-2007, 11:28 PM
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"the pump makes allot of noise (cavitation sound)"
Both problem reports mention frothing.

Air getting into the circuit somewhere, sometimes, and displacing fluid?
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  #5  
Old 05-18-2007, 09:56 AM
STORMINORMAN STORMINORMAN is offline
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Lightbulb That's my query...

If there is a problem on the high pressure side of the line shouldn't there be fluid streaming out the breach?

If on the return side, would this somehow allow air into the system?

I would kinda' think air getting into the system (foe example, at the O-ring) would be sucked into the pump, generating the bubbles, etc.

When I refilled the system the fluid was initially pushed out the return line in a liquid form (no frothing), then air, then the frothy pink form which is what escapes out the cap and finally drains the system.

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  #6  
Old 05-18-2007, 10:11 AM
comp_jas comp_jas is offline
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I have seen this on Audi hydraulic pumps. Some refer to it as the volcano effect. Air is being sucked past a seal on the pump and froths out the reservoir. I'm not that familiar yet with the SVX pump but Audi sells a seal kit to fix the pump.
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  #7  
Old 05-19-2007, 05:15 PM
STORMINORMAN STORMINORMAN is offline
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Question Rebuilt pumps are $150 or so...

What I'm really wondering is how many quarts of ATF should it take to bleed out & refill the entire system if the pump itself is not toast?
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' 92 SVX @ 185K
' 91 420SEL @ 223K!
' 88 420SEL I. @ 178K (what a buy!)
' 87 F250 @ 180K
' 93 ZX-11D @ 29K
' 93 SC400 @ 93K
2001 Valkyrie Interstate @ 6.6K (Brynhild)
Y2K NightHawk 250 @ 1,500 miles
' 88 420SEL II. @ 208K
'85 F150 @ 135K
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  #8  
Old 05-19-2007, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STORMINORMAN
If there is a problem on the high pressure side of the line shouldn't there be fluid streaming out the breach?

If on the return side, would this somehow allow air into the system?

I would kinda' think air getting into the system (foe example, at the O-ring) would be sucked into the pump, generating the bubbles, etc.

When I refilled the system the fluid was initially pushed out the return line in a liquid form (no frothing), then air, then the frothy pink form which is what escapes out the cap and finally drains the system.

The operative words now included, "and finally drains the system." make clear that not previously so. The symptoms have been presented in a rather confusing fashion, not an unusual problem.

It would now appear that no leaking hoses were/are involved. It is now clear that pressure, including a content of air within the fluid, is bypassing a valve or a seal. Air also entering suggests a seal. This will be occurring within the rack assembly rather than the pump.
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  #9  
Old 05-19-2007, 06:06 PM
STORMINORMAN STORMINORMAN is offline
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Thumbs up Sorry, Trevor.

I appreciate what you are saying but I was trying to see if "Chris" (as in "Chris's Shop") might also respond. Or Earl...

My mechanic (general mechanic, not Subaru specialist, by any means) seems to think it isn't the pump itself. I'm skeptical because of all the bubbles. I guess the best thing to do will be to inspect the rack, and if not leaking or binding, then replace all the (15 year-old) hoses 1st. Get it up in the air and move the wheels back and forth in an attempt to get as much air out of the system as possible.

Then, if it still froths and spews foam I oughta' be pretty sure it is (just) the pump?

If I have to do rack & pump I might as well do braided brake lines, new CV joints, struts, throw on my new front rotors, new pads, new master cylinder, etc.

That'll make the wife happy, huh?

Cheers!
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' 92 SVX @ 185K
' 91 420SEL @ 223K!
' 88 420SEL I. @ 178K (what a buy!)
' 87 F250 @ 180K
' 93 ZX-11D @ 29K
' 93 SC400 @ 93K
2001 Valkyrie Interstate @ 6.6K (Brynhild)
Y2K NightHawk 250 @ 1,500 miles
' 88 420SEL II. @ 208K
'85 F150 @ 135K
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  #10  
Old 05-19-2007, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STORMINORMAN
I appreciate what you are saying but I was trying to see if "Chris" (as in "Chris's Shop") might also respond. Or Earl...

My mechanic (general mechanic, not Subaru specialist, by any means) seems to think it isn't the pump itself. I'm skeptical because of all the bubbles. I guess the best thing to do will be to inspect the rack, and if not leaking or binding, then replace all the (15 year-old) hoses 1st. Get it up in the air and move the wheels back and forth in an attempt to get as much air out of the system as possible.

Then, if it still froths and spews foam I oughta' be pretty sure it is (just) the pump?

If I have to do rack & pump I might as well do braided brake lines, new CV joints, struts, throw on my new front rotors, new pads, new master cylinder, etc.

That'll make the wife happy, huh?

Cheers!
Your mechanic is correct. It is very unlikely to be the pump. Why are you skeptical, the bubbles have been explained?

It is unlikely that you will ascertain anything from inspecting the exterior of the rack. The fault is most likely to be internal. The leak/return of fluid does not appear to involve external discharge, on the basis of your report. Why would you suspect hoses.
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  #11  
Old 05-19-2007, 07:58 PM
STORMINORMAN STORMINORMAN is offline
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Lightbulb Well...

...I pulled off the belt. Now, when I spin the P/S pulley by hand I get this nice "Grinch, grinch, grinch..." sound. Plus there is a point in the rotation where I can feel a little resistance. It is actually putting more fluid into the plastic tube I attached to the return line. But no bubbles, no foam. Maybe because I'm only spinning it at maybe 60 rpm?

This kinda' indicates to me that the pump itself has developed a leak in either the body or one of the seals: probably the main seal on the shaft?

What do you think?
__________________
' 92 SVX @ 185K
' 91 420SEL @ 223K!
' 88 420SEL I. @ 178K (what a buy!)
' 87 F250 @ 180K
' 93 ZX-11D @ 29K
' 93 SC400 @ 93K
2001 Valkyrie Interstate @ 6.6K (Brynhild)
Y2K NightHawk 250 @ 1,500 miles
' 88 420SEL II. @ 208K
'85 F150 @ 135K
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  #12  
Old 05-19-2007, 09:34 PM
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Trevor Trevor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STORMINORMAN
...I pulled off the belt. Now, when I spin the P/S pulley by hand I get this nice "Grinch, grinch, grinch..." sound. Plus there is a point in the rotation where I can feel a little resistance. It is actually putting more fluid into the plastic tube I attached to the return line. But no bubbles, no foam. Maybe because I'm only spinning it at maybe 60 rpm?

This kinda' indicates to me that the pump itself has developed a leak in either the body or one of the seals: probably the main seal on the shaft?

What do you think?
I have advised my thoughts based on the symptoms you have described. The pump is a rotary device and it would appears that yours may have a faulty bearing, but I can not see how this would relate to the problem you have described.

The pump incorporates a flow control valve which would be the likely culprit in respect of the pump, as this may allow back pressure into the tank. It can be removed by unscrewing the high pressure outlet hose connector.

However it is difficult to accept that the pump would back feed the complete contents of the system, as you have indicated.
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  #13  
Old 05-20-2007, 02:07 PM
STORMINORMAN STORMINORMAN is offline
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Lightbulb Trevor: all the foam is coming out the return line!

It is not a situation where the pump is back-flushing the contents of the reservoir up through the filler cap: it is running all the pressurized & cavitated fluid through the high pressure line, through the rack & back through the return line, into the reservoir and then out through the cap.

One can watch it go down the reservoir as normal liquid ATF and out the low pressure return line as bubbles and pink froth.

The faulty bearing and round seal (if not a leak inside the pump itself, or in the pump housing) is, I presume, where the air is getting into the system.

Just like a leaking O-ring allows air into the pump when the pump is running and ATF leaking out of the pump when not running...

Cheers!
__________________
' 92 SVX @ 185K
' 91 420SEL @ 223K!
' 88 420SEL I. @ 178K (what a buy!)
' 87 F250 @ 180K
' 93 ZX-11D @ 29K
' 93 SC400 @ 93K
2001 Valkyrie Interstate @ 6.6K (Brynhild)
Y2K NightHawk 250 @ 1,500 miles
' 88 420SEL II. @ 208K
'85 F150 @ 135K
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  #14  
Old 05-20-2007, 04:18 PM
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Trevor Trevor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STORMINORMAN
When I refilled the system the fluid was initially pushed out the return line in a liquid form (no frothing), then air, then the frothy pink form which is what escapes out the cap and

finally drains the system.

I can not see how air getting into the circuit would fully drain the system. Or is it that you are separating the problem into two, i.e. the entry of air as one problem and and the open return of fluid as another.

I would think that they are allied and only one fault is involved within the rack mechanism. In any event debating the issue will not solve your problem. It would appear that you have some work to do,
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  #15  
Old 05-20-2007, 05:43 PM
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Norm

I just got back this late AM and now got to the board from a week long trip. I am trying to catch up now.

I would check all of the hoses for any cracks or leaks. I would also check the O-Ring again. I replaced one once and had it go bad within a day. It was my fault because of the way I had instarlled it. After that I didn't have any more problems. There are some other O-rings near the switch that I have had to replace and have let air into the system. If you need more info on that, let me know.

I would look for leaks in the system or where the fluid is leaving the system. If it is just the cap, it may be the pump. If the pump is bad, it may be making foam which is displacing the fluid and making it expand and leave via the cap. If you do replace the pump, don't throw it away. I would like to see if it can be bebuilt.
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