Lets talk about this annoying hot start problem... - Page 3

dannmarr · #31 11-07-2005, 05:34 AM

I give up! I tried the relay bypass, I tried replacing the ignition switch and I replaced the bolts. I still have the same problem. It's a little less than before but it's still there. One thing I've noticed is... If I open and close the door or change the shift positions or step on the brake, it somehow triggers the ignition switch to work. Maybe I'm wrong, but if anyone has another solution I would like to hear about it. Thanks.

JIMSVX · #32 11-07-2005, 07:04 AM

Looks like the only thing you didn't change was the starter........

#33 11-07-2005, 12:21 PM

im inclined to think that its the wiring that stems from the ignition switch to the starter.

one way to test this would be buying a push button starter like snap-on sells...if it does in fact work you could:

1. install new wiring from the switch to the starter or
2. install a fabbed button in the interior of the car.

i can honestly see this problem getting really old really fast.

kuoh · #34 11-07-2005, 04:48 PM

Have you tried bypassing the starter kill relay under the steering column? Just pull the relay and install a simple jumper wire and see if there is any change. When I was having problems, I attached a multimeter to both the starter kill relay and the terminal on the starter to identify whether I was seeing low or no voltage and eliminated downstream systems. If you turn the key and measure no voltage at the starter terminal, then the problem isn't at the starter. Likewise if you measure no voltage going to the starter kill relay, then the problem is upstream from there. You can work forwards or backwards, but you have to identify the section where the current flow stops to really get to the root of the problem.

KuoH

Quote:

Originally Posted by dannmarr

I give up! I tried the relay bypass, I tried replacing the ignition switch and I replaced the bolts. I still have the same problem. It's a little less than before but it's still there. One thing I've noticed is... If I open and close the door or change the shift positions or step on the brake, it somehow triggers the ignition switch to work. Maybe I'm wrong, but if anyone has another solution I would like to hear about it. Thanks.

dannmarr · #35 12-31-2005, 08:40 PM

Can someone show me with a photo where the starter kill relay is? and what's it for? If I bypass it, what will it affect?

JIMSVX · #36 04-13-2006, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oab_au

A relay with a winding resistance of about 85 ohms, may not have the problem.

Harvey.

Has anyone tried a relay with an (approximate) 85 ohm coil? I'm getting ready to install this mod and I don't want to have to worry about the starter accidently engaging.

dannmarr · #37 04-13-2006, 09:44 PM

It won't trigger the starter as long as you don't shift into Park or Neutral while the cruise control is on. Check out the 'how to' at SVX-iw.com under Engine/starter relay bypass installation

Trevor · #38 04-14-2006, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beav

If the wire has some really bad resistance or corroded terminals it could be the culprit. I'm here to tell ya that a 14ga wire will carry enough current to start a car. Trevor and I bantered around over this a few years ago - he's a retired EE and knows his stuff. A couple weeks ago a couple buddies and I removed the battery cable from a car. Yeah, the big, heavy one, and replaced it with a 14ga wire. Now, granted it got hotter than hades but it still started the car, just a hair under 200amps. So I reckon a 16ga wire can manage to power a starter solenoid. (BTW - this negates the value of the infamous 'alternator mod'. As long as you have good, clean connections and undamaged wire the OE wiring will do just fine.)

A month or so ago a friend of ours was having the same starter no go-go problem on his SVX. I did a quick voltage drop test by placing one lead on the positive battery terminal and the other lead on the small terminal of the starter solenoid - .12v, a reasonable reading (voltage drops on most 12v auto circuits should be less than .5v) Leaving one lead on the battery + I moved the other lead to the battery cable end at the starter - 6v was shown on the meter. This means the cable was losing half the battery voltage to the starter (12-6=6.) I then jabbed the lead into the battery cable about three inches downstream of the battery terminal and still had the 6v drop. Turns out, even though it couldn't be seen to look at it, the cable clamp at the battery was bad. Total diag time = 2 minutes, no parts required.

Now I'm not saying you have a bad battery cable or that overlaying a new wire didn't work for E'phil. I'm just trying to teach everyone the quick, easy and proper way to find an electrical fault. Some time ago I published the add-on relay as a cure for a problem I was experiencing. Since my particular no-start condition was sporadic I couldn't rely on a voltage drop test because it only occured maybe once a month or so. I wired up the relay to ensure 12 volts was getting to the starter solenoid trigger terminal. As it turned out quite a few others have fixed their similar problem this way, but it didn't work for others.

If y'all need some more discussion to understand voltage drops, and why measuring ohms/resistance doesn't mean much on a car's circuitry let me know.

Here, here Beav.

Why is it that your excellent, reliable, well thought out advice, backed by the best qualifications available here, is always overlaid by others jumping on the band wagon in order to project their alleged knowledge ?

Also good advice backing up yours, is to suggest using a high wattage test lamp for basic voltage checking. This in lieu of a sensitive votmeter, which will not respond to what can be a substantial resistance in a low voltage circuit. Your suggestion of checking for voltage drop is undeniably the ultimate choice and is beyond criticism.

You were the original adviser in respect of the suggestion regarding adding a slave relay. All appear to have ignored your clear description regarding the reason for doing so. i.e. you had become frustrated beyond reason with an INTERMITTANT fault which could NOT be traced.

The corect procedure, as you have stressed, in the case of a fault condition which exists for a reasonable period, is to find the fault and fix it. The addition of a "band aid", in the form of a slave relay, has problems as indicated here and overall makes this a very poor alternative. The fault will still exist and further deterioration resuting in increased resistance, could result in the problem returning. A modification is not a fix.

Trevor.

dannmarr · #39 04-14-2006, 07:21 PM

It's true, Beav knows what he is talking about. But Until someone finds the exact cure, all we can do is use a band aid. I enjoy reading how we all try to help each other, so please don't ruin it by putting others down. This is a family forum.

Trevor · #40 04-14-2006, 08:47 PM

What I have tried to show is that fault finding is the answer. N.B. Beav's instuctions. No one appears to have followed his advice and it appears that the real issue has become side tracked, even though several have tried to point out the correct answer. Confusion is not happiness. Valid observation and criticism, does not constitute a fight.

dannmarr · #41 04-15-2006, 08:19 AM

Sorry if I misunderstood you. We, who don't have much experience are waiting for the experts to find the answers.

kuoh · #42 04-15-2006, 11:25 AM

It seemes that there are a few different causes for this problem. In my case, it was the ignition switch, which is one common cause as the SVX gets old. I think though, that the "experts" are trying to point out that blindly replacing wiring or installing relays without finding out more about the problem doesn't always result in a positive outcome.

KuoH

Quote:

Originally Posted by dannmarr

We, who don't have much experience are waiting for the experts to find the answers.

oab_au · #43 04-15-2006, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kuoh

It seemes that there are a few different causes for this problem. In my case, it was the ignition switch, which is one common cause as the SVX gets old. I think though, that the "experts" are trying to point out that blindly replacing wiring or installing relays without finding out more about the problem doesn't always result in a positive outcome.

KuoH

Yes the problem is obviously caused by age, and the high current flow that the starter solenoid draws. The contacts in the Ignition switch and the Inhibitor switch pit and burn away with age, so they can not pass that sort of current. So the right way is to renew all the components.

The cheap alternative

is to fit a relay to the solenoid to take the high current flow off, the switches. The only problem to this is the way the Cruise control uses the starter solenoid to turn off the Cruise control when P or N is selected. If the relay that is fitted has a winding resistance that is too high, the starter will operate, when the Cruise is on and P/N is selected.

The winding in the relay has to be low enough to prevent the small current that the Cruise runs to ground through it, won't pull it in to operate the starter.

The relay that you used had a 500 ohm winding, so it would only take 0.024 Amps to operate it. If a relay with a winding of about 85 ohms is used it would take 0.14 amps to operate it. too high for the Cruise current to operate it, I think.

Harvey.

JIMSVX · #44 04-15-2006, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oab_au

The relay that you used had a 500 ohm winding, so it would only take 0.024 Amps to operate it. If a relay with a winding of about 85 ohms is used it would take 0.14 amps to operate it. too high for the Cruise current to operate it, I think.

Harvey.

Today I installed the Starter Relay Bypass mod using a Radio Shack 30 amp automotive relay p/n 275-226 ($6.49). The coil measures 66 ohms. I drove around with the Cruise Control power on and the engaged system at 40 MPH. When I slipped the transmission into neutral the Cruise Control dis-engaged (as I believe it should) and the starter did not start. It looks like you are right on this one Harvey.

I do agree with both Harvey and Trevor that the best solution is to analyze/troubleshoot the problem and then replace the failed part(s). However, with this intermittent problem it could take a long time to find the bad part. So until it fails hard I'm going to live with the band-aid fix and enjoy starting (and driving) my '92 Claret. Then when it does fail I'll replace it and remove the "band-aid".

Thanks to everyone for your help on this.

oab_au · #45 04-15-2006, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JIMSVX

Today I installed the Starter Relay Bypass mod using a Radio Shack 30 amp automotive relay p/n 275-226 ($6.49). The coil measures 66 ohms. I drove around with the Cruise Control power on and the engaged system at 40 MPH. When I slipped the transmission into neutral the Cruise Control dis-engaged (as I believe it should) and the starter did not start. It looks like you are right on this one Harvey.

I do agree with both Harvey and Trevor that the best solution is to analyze/troubleshoot the problem and then replace the failed part(s). However, with this intermittent problem it could take a long time to find the bad part. So until it fails hard I'm going to live with the band-aid fix and enjoy starting (and driving) my '92 Claret. Then when it does fail I'll replace it and remove the "band-aid".

Thanks to everyone for your help on this.

Ah, good one Jim.

Just got to ensure that the right relay is used. The one you got should be easy for any body to get.

Harvey.