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  #31  
Old 03-10-2004, 10:28 PM
Chicane Chicane is offline
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If someone was walking down your street, and saw you sleeping with your wallet on your night stand, your window open, your house unlocked, your garage open, and your keys laying on top of the car, would it be a crime to knock on the door and let you know that you left everything open?

- Rob
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  #32  
Old 03-10-2004, 10:31 PM
Chicane Chicane is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Noir
Give a little privacy to gain a little security. You got any better suggestions?
That's it. This is the end of our conversations, forever. This is the stupidest ****ing thing I've ever heard of. Ben Franklin once said "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

You are now on my ignore list, good riddance.

- Rob
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  #33  
Old 03-10-2004, 10:37 PM
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Seraph Seraph is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Noir

If I'm guilty of being programmed by the media, then you are just as guilty of being programmed by you beloved 'hackers'.

In the whole thread, I am going to have to say I agree with Rob on this one and I am not going to jump in since our point of views are different and although I do not agree with your point of view, everyone has the right to say what they want. That's what freedom is all about.
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  #34  
Old 03-11-2004, 01:27 AM
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Noir Noir is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chicane
If someone was walking down your street, and saw you sleeping with your wallet on your night stand, your window open, your house unlocked, your garage open, and your keys laying on top of the car, would it be a crime to knock on the door and let you know that you left everything open?

- Rob
But the problem with this is that they aren't knocking on the door, they are entering the house without knocking on the door. And in Georgia, we shoot them. Don't know about Wisconsin.
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  #35  
Old 03-11-2004, 01:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chicane


That's it. This is the end of our conversations, forever. This is the stupidest ****ing thing I've ever heard of. Ben Franklin once said "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

You are now on my ignore list, good riddance.

- Rob
It's a shame that we can't have a decent discussion without getting all upset and going the ignore route. Although I agree with Ben's point of view. I have to admit that Ben himself may say differently if he was alive today. Do we not give away privacy when we step into the airport? It's kept the guy with C4 shoe bomb off the plane. The schools with repeated gang violence resorts to using mesh or clear plastic schoolbags along with the installments of metal detectors for the students. Privacy lost, reduction in school shootings gained. If you prefer to have more hijacks or kids shooting your future kids go right ahead. Last time I checked the bill of rights, we are protected from unreasonable searches. We are the ones that determine what's reasonable and what's not. Is it reasonable to setup surveillence in a subdivision to keep your family and kids safe at the expense of being recorded? In my book it sure is. Of course, not many of you have had friends murdered either, so it's easy to think that way. Too bad, I thought Mr. Robert and myself were actually getting somewhere. Oh well, the world still spins.

Last edited by Noir; 03-11-2004 at 01:50 AM.
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  #36  
Old 03-11-2004, 07:44 AM
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Aredubjay Aredubjay is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chicane
PS: Also... one question: Do you believe LEGAL= RIGHT and ILLEGAL=WRONG? Or do you think for yourself what right and wrong truly is, and notice a discrepency in the laws? It's up to us to CHANGE the laws to fit our beliefs, NOT change our beliefs to fit into the current legal system- if you did that you'd just be a mindless drone programmed by the media...

The trick is to "CHANGE" them BEFORE you break them. Otherwise, you'll be trying to change them behind bars.

"Ignorance" of the law is no excuse and neither is blatantly ignoring it because your "belief system" doesn't. Right or wrong, the law is the law and breaking it is "ILLEGAL" or, if you will, WRONG.
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  #37  
Old 03-11-2004, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chicane
If someone was walking down your street, and saw you sleeping with your wallet on your night stand, your window open, your house unlocked, your garage open, and your keys laying on top of the car, would it be a crime to knock on the door and let you know that you left everything open?

- Rob

No. It would be a crime to enter the house, wander around, rearrange things or, take things over to the neighbor's house without my knowledge. A) Trespassing B) Theft, whether you kept the items or not.

It's the "knock on the door" to alert the occupant that you're there that's missing in your "hacker" scenario.
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  #38  
Old 03-11-2004, 10:47 AM
Chicane Chicane is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Aredubjay



No. It would be a crime to enter the house, wander around, rearrange things or, take things over to the neighbor's house without my knowledge. A) Trespassing B) Theft, whether you kept the items or not.

It's the "knock on the door" to alert the occupant that you're there that's missing in your "hacker" scenario.
No, it really isnt. Hacker might probe a system to see if it has any unlocked doors or gaping security flaws, but then they'll inform the IT guys about it. I'm not kidding. This happens all the time. Hackers only deal partially with computers, being a hacker is about being curious as to how things work, wanting to learn new things, and even modding things. Everyone with a modded SVX here has hacker DNA in them. Everyone who has taken apart something to see how it works has it also. I suggest you start listening to Off The Hook.... right now the only place you hear 'hacker' is from the media, and we all know how they use it. Go ahead. Try listening to some of their shows. You might learn a thing or two.

- Rob
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  #39  
Old 03-11-2004, 11:05 AM
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Seraph Seraph is offline
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Hackers do not cause harm in a system, computer or otherwise. If they see a security thread, they'll inform the the person in charge of it.

I particularly do not care about people probing a system and looking around. I've done my fair share of that. But once you start an attack or documentation, you are not talking hacker anymore and they are a menace to society.
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  #40  
Old 03-11-2004, 11:29 AM
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Uncamitzi Uncamitzi is offline
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Yes Chitcane I do

(believe that right=legal until the law is corrected from within)

Because I choose to live in a society that passes laws and has a representative form of government I choose to live within those laws! As you should. If you think a law needs to be changed and enough people agree with you that law can and should be changed. That applies to both the speed limit, drug, and hacker laws.

As you seem to think that laws are made to be broken, have fun in jail or the poor house when my society comes down on yours. You will pay the legal penalty for not trying to change this system from within.

I believe in, and follow only one of the Commandments (law) that the Judo-Christian world lives by.

Thou shalt not steal.

That one commandment (law) covers all the rest, and is the one that hackers violate constantly. (Liars steal truth, murderers steal life, trespassers steal privacyetc.)

In your past posts I've noticed that you said that you are an atheist. Apparently thats about the only thing in this world that you and I agree upon. However, you give the rest of us a bad name. If you cant defend something logically, give up. I do not correlate religious with morality or right with might. There is no forceful argument that you can make that will make disobeying a law right.

The reason you argue, and the force with which you try to defend your illogical stands are unfathomable to me. Calling people names does not enhance an argument. Your inexperienced opinion does not count as fact nor does you limited experience (youre what, 18?) constitute knowledge. You have not changed you manner or attitude hence I still have you on ignore and refuse to open you posts. However, as long as others whom I respect continue to quote you, I reserve the right to be offended by your comments and have the right to respond to them especially when I think you are off base.

Legal does equal right within the society that you have chosen to live in If you feel differently please remove yourself from that society /rant
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  #41  
Old 03-11-2004, 12:08 PM
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Noir Noir is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Seraph
Hackers do not cause harm in a system, computer or otherwise. If they see a security thread, they'll inform the the person in charge of it.

I particularly do not care about people probing a system and looking around. I've done my fair share of that. But once you start an attack or documentation, you are not talking hacker anymore and they are a menace to society.
Hey Lwin, I agree with you completely. I'm guilty of probing systems. He11 I'm guilty of some things that would be considered 'CRACKER' that I will not speak of. Whether hacker or cracker, if you get into someone's system without their consent, it's breaking in. That is viewed by the majority as a not just and illegal. That's my full point. I don't read 2600, I do however read alot of other exploit sites.

I'm also referring to internet prescences. A company that has a system attached to the internet. I'm not talking about Tivo boxes or SVX's. The main difference between the two is that you OWN the SVX and Tivo box, but you do not own the system for Bank of America.

Also people who probe don't bother me. You can poke at the system all day long, but once you poke through is when it's illegal. I have the banking industry supporting me on this one. I was allowed the opportunity to break into a banking system, but I had their consent, start date and time, end date and time. If I gained entry between those days and between those hours, it was considered legal. Anytime before and after their approved date and time would be illegal. It was all spelled out in writing.

Don't you agree with that?
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  #42  
Old 03-11-2004, 12:46 PM
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Re: Yes Chitcane I do

Quote:
Originally posted by Uncamitzi
[B](believe that right=legal until the law is corrected from within)

Because I choose to live in a society that passes laws and has a representative form of government I choose to live within those laws! As you should. If you think a law needs to be changed and enough people agree with you Ethat law can and should be changed. That applies to both the speed limit, drug, and hacker laws.

I believe in, and follow only one of the Commandments (law) that the Judo-Christian world lives by.

Thou shalt not steal.

That one commandment (law) covers all the rest, and is the one that hackers violate constantly. (Liars steal truth, murderers steal life, trespassers steal privacyEtc.)

[B]
I agree with you there Mitch. You choose live in this society, therefore you must live by the laws and face the consequences. Speaking of which, it is very interesting to speak to some of the people who are relatively removed from this society. Who am I speaking of ... the homeless. I spoken with quite a few of them and some of them are very intelligent, but then some of them aren't. Funny how some people can walk up and give a box of popeye's to a homeless person, sit down, and start chatting with them. Yes there's something wrong with me I know. If you want to try the same, beware of the ones that will pull flathead screwdrivers on you.

I don't believe in the 'ethical' god, but something else, but I do kinda agree with the 'thou shalt not steal' bit. It's more like 'thou shalt not steal from me or my friends' . If you steal be ready to face the consequences. Every thief knows this.

I would like to clarify that the definition of 'hacker' is someone who is curious and tries to find vulnerability in a system. They are not stealing or searching for anything other than the knowledge of how to exploit the vulnerability. They then may send the information to the owner/admin of the system or broadcast it to the public for others to know (they want to brag and they want the credit for the findings.) which is an invasion of privacy in my opinion. I mean it's kinda like hey look an open window, wonder if i can crawl in and out.

Last thing Mitch. I've never used the ignore button. Heck I don't even know where to look. I'm curious to ask (because I've never met anyone who used the ignore button) you how fumed you must have been to hit that button? I don't think I'll ever be upset enough to use the button. I like chatting with people and I've never gotten close to a point of totally ignoring someone. Sometimes they say stuff that maybe useful or they are good to help exercise your mind by making you disect their thinking.

Just my opinion though .

Harry (misses Mr. Robert's replies.)
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  #43  
Old 03-15-2004, 05:18 PM
waldon waldon is offline
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The server has been moved and I think
everything software-wise is happy now.
Unfortunately, the electricians have not
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new connection so we are in a jury-rigged
mode of operation. I expect that all the
wiring should be finished Friday or Saturday.
Expect a few minutes downtime when
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  #44  
Old 03-15-2004, 06:20 PM
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Mr. Pockets Mr. Pockets is offline
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My heartfelt thanks for your all hard work, Jim. I apologize for the hijacking of this thread.
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  #45  
Old 03-15-2004, 06:39 PM
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Seraph Seraph is offline
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Jim,

As an IT person to another, you ROCK! Well, that goes to Chris and all the others behind the scene as well.
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