RIP

[Wikedjuggalo]

Originally Posted by SoCal LS-L

http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/showthread.php?t=51012

http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/showthread.php?t=50808

Ok, no dropping the occasional joke in any of the three open discussions regarding Cash for Clunkers.

kk you seriously use those images way too much...........

[SoCal LS-L]

I dont know why this is such a huge thing around here, of course its a stupid idea conceived to help the struggling auto industry, the environmental benefits of a project with this small of a scope are nil. We will never be independent of foreign oil until we make cars that run on coal, sunlight, or have footpedals instead of engines.

[ensteele]

Originally Posted by SoCal LS-L

We will never be dependent of foreign oil until we make cars that run on coal, sunlight, or have footpedals instead of engines.

I think we are now! We need to drill here now!

[huck369]

Originally Posted by BoxerFanatic

Are you kidding? BOTH HAVE, or ARE failing!!!!!!!!!



PEOPLE ARE LOSING JOBS. Not just afraid of it. Unemployment has gone from statistically full employment at 5%, to nearly 10%, and probably will break that line nationally this year. Some places are experiencing closer to 15-16% unemployment, and much more UNDER-employment.

I haven't gotten a cost of living increase in my salary in three years. Do you honestly think I am going to quit my job over that right now?

This country had a negative saving rate, on average for the last decade or longer, that has just clamped down within the last 12 months, because people have retracted, and can no longer afford to live beyond their means.

The US GOVERNMENT is however, living on debt, deficit, and self-monetization, and bankrupting our country, and destroying the future of the US Dollar. You think that is good, and saving is bad?



PEOPLE DON'T HAVE THE THOUSANDS TO PUMP BACK IN. The government is stealing from Peter, his children, and his un-born grandchildren, to pay paul to trash his car, and pay for his sub-prime mortgage that he couldn't afford to begin with either.

More importantly, they are funneling money to wall street, ACORN, and other insanity. At this point, they are having a fire-sale on money, and the people in connected positions are profit taking before another economy crash. This is a bear market rally, none of the economic fundamentals make sense for a bull run right now, and people are taking the money they can get, from government, or anywhere else, while they still can.

This bullcrap cash for clunkers is a vote-buying excercise. so that the next time you need bail out, from your over-extended mortgage, and the new car the government enticed you to buy, when you could only afford the clunker before, the government can bail you out... and all it will cost is your freedom.



There are no up-sides, and I have been talking about crushing rare cars ad infinitum already.

Pushing more drops of fiscal irresponsibility into an already full deficit bucket, doesn't make either one the right thing to do, or to have done in the past.

Read this VERY CAREFULLY:

YOU CANNOT EVER BORROW AND SPEND YOUR WAY OUT OF DEBT. NEVER.

And whining about a moron governor doesn't make a whit's worth of difference, and is fairly immaterial.

If you want to point fingers... why not point fingers at the stimulus bill that was written by, and directly benefits SEIU, ACORN, and a lot of professional political agitators, rather than hard working americans KEEPING THE MONEY THEY EARN. That includes regular-joe union workers paying dues to those thugs, instead of keeping their money.

You cannot borrow your life on credit cards, and and then even moreso when you are bankrupt.

The government can't either. They can monetize all the debt they want, and all they will serve to do is FURTHER RUIN the economy, and destroy the country. They can only get BIGGER, and the bigger they are, the harder they WILL fall.

The ONLY remedy is responsibility. deficit spending, personally, or as a government, is the height of irresponsibility.

Neither the Ds nor the Rs are responsible. The ONLY people talking about responsibility are conservatives like me, and it seems like the rest of you have deafened your own ears. So prepare to reap your own whirlwind.

Agreed.......

[STeeL25T]

I disagree


Only thing I want to mentioin since you made it huge, bold, and red is that no where has anyone ever said we are getting out of debt by barrowing money... The stimulus has absolutely nothing to do with getting our national deficit down.

[BoxerFanatic]

Originally Posted by STeeL25T

I disagree


Only thing I want to mentioin since you made it huge, bold, and red is that no where has anyone ever said we are getting out of debt by barrowing money... The stimulus has absolutely nothing to do with getting our national deficit down.

You did say that. Not verbatim, but you made the point of spending, rather than saving.

You said that money needs to be spent. Government funding people to trash good cars, in favor of new cars, as MORE stimulus.

The country was in a deficit before the stimulus packages, before the auto and banking bail outs, before GWB said he had to abandon the free market to save it, and before Obama moved to full speed to change the economy to a government-based one.

Spending government money on cash for clunkers, or health care, or ANYTHING, when the government is in debt, and are deficit spending... is MORE DEBT, and by definition, MORE DEFICIT SPENDING.

And you were saying that spending is good, and saving, and living within our means is bad. You are 180 degrees wrong.

The government can only print so much money before it is worthless. They can only borrow so much before China and others stop buying our debt, and our country's credit expires.

The same rules of economics WILL assert themselves. And the more the government fights it, the more painful it will be.

[STeeL25T]

I am not at all saying that living outside your means is good and paying of debt is bad, but neither of those things are huge threats at the moment. If everyone stoped spending money, the entire economy grinds to a hault... You have to understand that, you got to put something in to get something out. Well no ones putting anything in, so nothing is ever going to be better. Paying down our national deficit will not save anyones job this year or next, this stimulus has that power.

It is a much better plan than "saving money" by letting the big three lay off 500,000 people to draw unemployment for 6 months and letting the banks collapse and eliminate our lending system rendeing most millions of home loans null and void, and the insurance companies eat dirt leaving million of people without coverege.

[BoxerFanatic]

Originally Posted by STeeL25T

I am not at all saying that living outside your means is good and paying of debt is bad, but neither of those things are huge threats at the moment. If everyone stoped spending money, the entire economy grinds to a hault... You have to understand that, you got to put something in to get something out. Well no ones putting anything in, so nothing is ever going to be better. Paying down our national deficit will not save anyones job this year or next, this stimulus has that power.

Unless people stop eating, and EVERYONE loses their job, and no longer has to commute, and entropy stops entirely so that nobody has to maintain anything ever, then spending will not stop entirely.

I am saying that if a person should live within their means, and minimize their debt, then the government should, too.

Because the government doesn't earn anything. You and I, and other people do. The government seizes money, and is a COST. They generate no revenue, they only generate waste.

Your last statement is insane if you go more than just skin deep. Every dollar that the government takes out of the private sector makes it harder to create, or even KEEP jobs, and maintain any sort of wage growth.

All these "green jobs" that the stimulus is trying to promote... a study released yesterday said that those jobs last, get this... 35 hours. Then the employee is back on the unemployment line.

Stimulus money isn't going to small business, which employs more than 70% of the employees in this country. It doesn't help entrepreneurship. It pays rich cronies, and pays ACORN, SEIU, and the like.

They know this. THEY WROTE THE BILLS, and the legislators haven't even read them. John Conyers thinks it is ludicrous to even expect them to read the bills...

It is a much better plan than "saving money" by letting the big three lay off 500,000 people to draw unemployment for 6 months and letting the banks collapse and eliminate our lending system rendeing most millions of home loans null and void, and the insurance companies eat dirt leaving million of people without coverege.

Maybe it is those company's jobs to stay in business. No business exists to provide jobs. Jobs are a product of being a required means of production.

If automakers fail, they liquidate, and someone buys up the assets, and starts doing business in a way they think is better and more efficient, and they tap the existing labor pool at a market-driven labor rate, not at a union thuggery-inflated rate.

If a bank fails because the government forced it to lend to people who where HIGH credit risks... first off, the government should be OUT of their business, and second of all, the banks would have to re-capitalize themselves, and survive, or be re-generated in a new, efficient form.

Insurance companies going bankrupt mean that they either re-organize and re-capitalize, or people stop paying those companies premiums, and pay premiums to other insurance providers that emerge more efficient and trustworthy.



You think of everything as a static system, and it is a very dynamic system.

People still will need cars to get to work, and replace the cars that are no longer viable. They don't need government to incentivize it, they need to keep their income, and buy newer products in a responsible way.

People still need to manage their money with security, there will always be a market for banking, if the currency is worth saving. The government needs to stop dictating terms to banks, and stop de-valuing the currency, which provides people will less purchasing, saving, and investing power.

People still know that there is risk in life, and will continue to buy insurance to spread that risk out to a pool of people that won't likely be simultaneously affected by risk. There will be demand for insurance, while there is anything worth protecting. The government needs to let that system work, and let people keep their own money and property.

As long as there is demand, and entrepreneurs and smart people are allowed to be free enough to pursue that demand with efficient business practices, and make an honest profit on it, they will continually regenerate those industries, and ANY industry that is similarly a free enterprise.

The government's ONLY role is to prosecute fraud to protect people legally. Whenever a government becomes onerous in economic and business matters, like it currently is, it drives people to corruption, and gaming the system, not to honesty and ethical business practices.

Obviously you've either never heard of, or haven't really learned the principle of creative destruction...

Funny, people think recycling is so wonderfully good, but then don't think that free market economics is a study in resource recycling through ethical profitable business activity between free people.

[Sov13t]

Well said BoxerFanatic.

Where did real capitalism go? Where its competition, efficiency, ability to adjust, proper decisions and so many other good things... rather than huge debts, bailouts and other BS.

Stretching the rubberband further will only hurt more... and unfortunately the bastards that are running this will not quit... I work in D.C.... I get to see these people everyday... getting off work at 3pm... one of SEIU buildings is right across from my office... its disgusting... and what sucks is not too many people are aware of this and that sucks.

Its rotten...



Source: http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/AMBNS

And I am sure its downplayed.

[bheinen74]

Originally Posted by huck369

Until the allotted money runs out....

hmm, this sounds kinda like the DTV crap they forced on us, and the forced ownership of Chrysler, GM, AIG, BOA etc.

the big brother needs to go.

[subeman90]

I talked to a friend today that is in the used car business. He said the new car dealerships that he deals with are buzzing with people dumping cars left and right. he also said that there is some great stuff that is getting dumped for the 3500/4500 check that has a trade value of about 2000 and the sad part is that some of these cars are actaully pretty good used cars that have a poor/low resale value. He said the lower end of the used market is going to feel this hard.

Just a report from someone on the front lines.

[benebob]

Originally Posted by TomsSVX

It is illegal to remove any part of the drivetrain from a clunker. Sucks but true

Tom

I heard the engine needed to be seized at the trade in dealer to be eligable from a friend high up at Manhole Auto Auction.

I sure hope they don't get a lot of engines with Slick 50 in 'em as think of all the emissions from idling with no oil they'll create!

[BoxerFanatic]

They are bound by law to put sodium silicate in the engine, and idle it for 7 minutes, or until it seizes.

Then it is illegal to sell the car or engine to anyone, and they are mandated to be CRUSHED.

Say goodbye to a good number of good used cars.

What about the people who can't afford a new car, or don't have a clunker, or both... what will this do to the availability of good used cars?

I think it will crash.

Short term demand for new cars will somewhat spike, and high to mid-range used car value will suffer as people buy new with incentive, rather than buying used instead. Depreciation on cars that were new just a couple of years ago, will be huge. It also won't be a big enough of a new-demand spike to really satisfy the bigger car companies who need LOTS of cash, not just some.

That downward pressure on late-model used cars will push the few current used buyers up-market, to the cheaper, newer used cars, and the lower end used cars will languish also, and be worth even less, with even less demand.

In the longer term, once this runs out of it's initial steam, just as cheap leasing and cheap financing wore off, and became less viable, and the people targeted took advantage, and the buyer pool tapered back...

The new car demand will sink lower, not stay even. Car companies will be back in trouble, used cars will continue to have downward pressure from new car incentives, as they search for buyers to bite.

I don't see that the rest of the economy is going to spring to life, and give a lot of people a lot more disposable income, and create new robust demand for big ticket items in people who don't currently have such demand.

Actually, I don't think the current "recovery" talk is founded on anything but wishful thinking, and corrupt profit-taking. There is no underpinning to this bear-market rally. Jobs and incomes, consumer confidence, and other indicators are down, or maybe even, but certainly not rising.

Monetary policy is HORRIBLE, and the dollar is on the edge of a cliff. whatever triggers interest rates to rise, will push the value of the dollars off the cliff, and retailers will be spending all of their time updating their UPC databases with prices rising by the hour. (ok, that might be a touch of hyperbole, but just to make a point...)

Once started, the interest rates will take off like a rocket, to compensate for the worthless cash being dumped on the market now. Sov13t's chart shows it, and the St. Louis FED office is probably down-playing it as much as they can, to moderate hyper-inflationary fears.

When people have a hard time scraping together the cash for a mortgage payment, huge energy payments due to cap-and-trade, and high costs for groceries... the car they are buying today will be more likely to default, followed by that mortgage, and the light bill.

That will only push the demand for cars into the basement. The only people buying will be the ones who absolutely must replace a dead car to get to work, if they still have a job to keep.

Until the monetary and central planning policies of the government, and their "spend our way out of debt" and "we'll pay for healthcare by saving money on government health-care", and "we'll stimulate the economy by paying community agitator organizations" kinds of idiocy, and the FED's willful destruction of the currency by printing more, and allowing the government to sell bonds to the FED, to get back that worthless paper... And pissing our creditor, China, off in the process...

Until those things change... I don't see a better outcome for this scenario. I don't see a robust, market-sustained, merit-based economic recovery. We are losing economic freedom, not gaining it. Economics and politics are inexorably entertwined, because they are required to be. You can't have one with liberty, if the other doesn't have it. It is either all liberty, or it is all going to devolve into tyranny and subjugation.

[svxy]

Well it looks like this may happen tomorrow. Taking shipment of a pearl white 2010 legacy coming out of Ashville NC. This thread has caused quite a stir and as much as it was unexpected, it was completely understandable. This has been a hard decision for me and it will hurt to see my old friend be no longer. I was planning a road trip to Oklahoma City later this month and was really looking forward to spending close to five days on the road. How many car owners can say that about being cooped up in a car for that long. While I appreciate all the comments, good and bad, I think I am in the same financial boat as many here because as much as we all love these machines, no one has stepped up to the plate and offered $3500 to save the 96 beauty and keep this rare vehicle alive. And as much as I would not want to see anyone else lose theirs, I could not spend that kind of cash on a car simple based on the enthusiasm and love for these cars. I know we wish we all could. I think about people in the past who did not have the foresight to save their, mustangs, gto's, z's, or others that today when we see one we look at in awe as they drive by. I feel the same now, because I had planned on being buried in it. And now there will be one less of the 1700 or so 1996 Subaru SVX's on the road. I will check to see what if anything they have planned with its remains. It’s been a good run and I appreciate this network for its dedication and drive to keep these overlooked treasures on the road.

[Green1995SVX]

Originally Posted by svxy

Well it looks like this may happen tomorrow. Taking shipment of a pearl white 2010 legacy coming out of Ashville NC. This thread has caused quite a stir and as much as it was unexpected, it was completely understandable. This has been a hard decision for me and it will hurt to see my old friend be no longer. I was planning a road trip to Oklahoma City later this month and was really looking forward to spending close to five days on the road. How many car owners can say that about being cooped up in a car for that long. While I appreciate all the comments, good and bad, I think I am in the same financial boat as many here because as much as we all love these machines, no one has stepped up to the plate and offered $3500 to save the 96 beauty and keep this rare vehicle alive. And as much as I would not want to see anyone else lose theirs, I could not spend that kind of cash on a car simple based on the enthusiasm and love for these cars. I know we wish we all could. I think about people in the past who did not have the foresight to save their, mustangs, gto's, z's, or others that today when we see one we look at in awe as they drive by. I feel the same now, because I had planned on being buried in it. And now there will be one less of the 1700 or so 1996 Subaru SVX's on the road. I will check to see what if anything they have planned with its remains. It’s been a good run and I appreciate this network for its dedication and drive to keep these overlooked treasures on the road.

Edited because i was being an ass.