Turn key, doesn't start

[Nomake Wan]

So if the clock dims out, it's the solenoid contacts? And here I was, thinking that the clock dimming out and the radio going off was common to all starting systems. Guess I gotta take a peek at those contacts.

[TomsSVX]

no... the clock will dim out even if it is the ignition switch... when the switch goes... its still sends current through the line... Just not enough

Tom

[longassname]

a good solenoid shouldn't draw enough current to dim the clock.....
the clock isn't even on the starter switch circuit it's on the accessory circuit. if you are drawing enough current to dim the clock you are browing out most of your car

[TomsSVX]

its not that its drawing the current, the electrical system in the SVX will shut down all unnecessary components when the key is turned to "start" and one of those is the clock... put your auto in drive and turn the key to start... you will see the clock dim

Tom

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by longassname

I haven't opened up a solenoid to see the mechanics of it but instead of simply not being able to cause the contact for the starter circuit it draws more and more current from the switching circuit. When you turn the key and it doesn't start it draws so much current from the switching circuit the clock in the dash will dim to blank despite having a fulling charged battery.

Once again we have a completely confused thread requiring much effort to straighten out. My objective has always been to prevent members being disadvantaged by incorrect information, hence my query.

Frankly the proposal as originally described and now reiterated is daft. It is particularly damaging, as it was originally backed up with a qualification, "I'm not exactly baffled by electricity thanks."

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by longassname

a good solenoid shouldn't draw enough current to dim the clock.....
the clock isn't even on the starter switch circuit it's on the accessory circuit. if you are drawing enough current to dim the clock you are browing out most of your car

It is alarming that the above is set down as a statement of fact. I do not have to explain to those technical the complete lack of accuracy, particularly regarding the confused thinking on current and the parallel circuits involved.
Others should simply ignore what has been proposed.

[longassname]

Actually Tom, you are right. I just checked it and the ignition switch does in fact break the accessory circuit when turned to start. My bad.

Originally Posted by TomsSVX

its not that its drawing the current, the electrical system in the SVX will shut down all unnecessary components when the key is turned to "start" and one of those is the clock... put your auto in drive and turn the key to start... you will see the clock dim

Tom

[longassname]

I was incorrect about the circuit. I assumed the accessory circuit stayed closed while the key was turned to start. I was wrong.

However, I think you are the only person being daft and the only reason this thread is confusing if it is. If you have an illuminating thread that describes the diagnosis of a bad ignition switch you could have simply said: "hey, a lot of times it's the ignition switch not the starter. Go look at my great explanation in this thread. Here is the link." Then he could have easily repeated the steps you performed to make your diagnosis and there wouldn't be a fusing thread. Apparantly it was more apealing to repeatedly insult me.

Now, while I was unaware of and mistaken about the accessory circuit being broken with the key turned to the start position that doesn't suddenly make his ignition switch bad. Who knows, it could be but I've had the exact same problem and it was starter not the ignition switch so I know better than to assume your diagnosis is correct for all.

Originally Posted by Trevor

Once again we have a completely confused thread requiring much effort to straighten out. My objective has always been to prevent members being disadvantaged by incorrect information, hence my query.

Frankly the proposal as originally described and now reiterated is daft. It is particularly damaging, as it was originally backed up with a qualification, "I'm not exactly baffled by electricity thanks."

[Nomake Wan]

Originally Posted by TomsSVX

its not that its drawing the current, the electrical system in the SVX will shut down all unnecessary components when the key is turned to "start" and one of those is the clock... put your auto in drive and turn the key to start... you will see the clock dim

Tom

Oh good, so I was right in the first place. I feel better now.

That said, crap, back to square one.

[immortal_suby]

Originally Posted by longassname

Often times a great deal of the problem is the contact on the solenoid isn't very good. When you're stuck in a parking lot it never hurts to give that spade connection a jiggle and try to get it on real tight. Even better, remove the plastic and adjust the spade to actually fit on tightly.
If your clock doesn't dim start looking at your ignition switch.

Mine has done this intermittently since I removed the dash to replace a heater core. It's likely I got something loose in the process that caused it. When you are talking about the spade terminal do you mean there is one in the steering column attached to the ignition switch?

Looking at working on this one today. I'll report back with results.

[kwren]

Originally Posted by Trevor

I am extremely interested but baffled by this report on solenoid failure as it strangely indicates that when the solenoid fails it does so in the closed position. This would have rather interesting results. Please amplify and confirm.

And interested of course.

Oh, Hi Trevor!

[kwren]

When trying to start, and failing, the cars ended up with the cooling fans running, regardless of the temperature of the cars....cold, hot, whatever.. The cooling fans were not running before the try to start the engine and the dreaded click.
as previously noted there are 3 main components in the start circuit. The starter, the ignition switch, and the inhibitor switch.
I ended up jumping the starter with a fused 12 gage wire and a spring loaded to the off position switch from the local automobile parts store. The wire was fastened directly to the battery ans a spade connected was pushed on the starter. With the car set in in park, so the car wouldn't leave without me, I turned the ignition switch to "on". The switch in my new wire would start it easily. I did this for months, on both cars. Sometimes start, sometimes not. When not, I open door, get out , raise the hood, push the switch th the on position, and start right up! Of course, again, car is set in the park position so the car never left without me.
This only showed that the problem was NOT the starter. I assume you checked the condition of the spade connector that pushes on at the starter.

This erratic not starting is a very complicated problem, but I would be interested to know if your cooling fans come on when your effort to start the engine fails. As for myself, on both my cars, and the case of many others here, that has been what happens.
If that is your case, the problem is not the starter, not the ignition switch, not the inhibitor switch.
This is what makes this so..... complicated.... those things, with the exception af a few wires, are "all there is".
I solved my problem with a Bosch relay in the system, actuated by my original ignition switch. Before I did the relay thing, I did purchase the new ignition switch, and nothing changed. So I spent many, many hours wrestling with this frustrating problem.
I know how frustrating it can be and hope you can put the pieces together in your puzzle. I bought both my cars on ebay, flew in and drove them home. (at different times, of course) They both started great all the way home, but we do pray a lot! The first time I tried to start silver and got the dreaded click, I thought it was probably the starter. Luckily, I suppose, The starter was a NAPA with a lifetime guarantee and they did honor it, although it was purchased by the previous owner.. See, I told you we pray a lot. Of course, that didn't help at all with the exception of helping me better understand the foot print in the drivers door that was there when we picked up the car in CO.
I hope this thing works out great for you.
Take care,
Keith

[kwren]

Originally Posted by immortal_suby

Mine has done this intermittently since I removed the dash to replace a heater core. It's likely I got something loose in the process that caused it. When you are talking about the spade terminal do you mean there is one in the steering column attached to the ignition switch?

Looking at working on this one today. I'll report back with results.

It has been a while since i did my sw, and I am an old man that can't remember everything.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by kwren

And interested of course.

Oh, Hi Trevor!

Hi Keith,

The problem is that several are unable to correctly describe facts in correct terms, or likewise understand what is in fact written.

Let's leave it at that.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by kwren

When trying to start, and failing, the cars ended up with the cooling fans running, regardless of the temperature of the cars....cold, hot, whatever.. The cooling fans were not running before the try to start the engine and the dreaded click.
as previously noted there are 3 main components in the start circuit. The starter, the ignition switch, and the inhibitor switch.
I ended up jumping the starter with a fused 12 gage wire and a spring loaded to the off position switch from the local automobile parts store. The wire was fastened directly to the battery ans a spade connected was pushed on the starter. With the car set in in park, so the car wouldn't leave without me, I turned the ignition switch to "on". The switch in my new wire would start it easily. I did this for months, on both cars. Sometimes start, sometimes not. When not, I open door, get out , raise the hood, push the switch th the on position, and start right up! Of course, again, car is set in the park position so the car never left without me.
This only showed that the problem was NOT the starter. I assume you checked the condition of the spade connector that pushes on at the starter.

This erratic not starting is a very complicated problem, but I would be interested to know if your cooling fans come on when your effort to start the engine fails. As for myself, on both my cars, and the case of many others here, that has been what happens.
If that is your case, the problem is not the starter, not the ignition switch, not the inhibitor switch.
This is what makes this so..... complicated.... those things, with the exception af a few wires, are "all there is".
I solved my problem with a Bosch relay in the system, actuated by my original ignition switch. Before I did the relay thing, I did purchase the new ignition switch, and nothing changed. So I spent many, many hours wrestling with this frustrating problem.
I know how frustrating it can be and hope you can put the pieces together in your puzzle. I bought both my cars on ebay, flew in and drove them home. (at different times, of course) They both started great all the way home, but we do pray a lot! The first time I tried to start silver and got the dreaded click, I thought it was probably the starter. Luckily, I suppose, The starter was a NAPA with a lifetime guarantee and they did honor it, although it was purchased by the previous owner.. See, I told you we pray a lot. Of course, that didn't help at all with the exception of helping me better understand the foot print in the drivers door that was there when we picked up the car in CO.
I hope this thing works out great for you.
Take care,
Keith

Keith,

Thanks for spending further time on this issue, particularly as so much frustration is involved.

We do indeed have a vexing problem which is well worth pursuing. In a previous thread you stated that you probably knew where voltage drop was occurring, but did not provide this vital information. Will you please now provide this info. as it will help a lot.

You advise in your post above:-

“If that is your case, the problem is not the starter, not the ignition switch, not the inhibitor switch.
This is what makes this so..... complicated.... those things, with the exception af a few wires, are "all there is".

Everything reported has proven that the starter as such is not the culprit, but why do you rule out the inhibitor switch?

There are additional components within the circuit involved rather than just “a few wires”. In particular, the manuals show an adaptor connector (B73) with a link in place and it would appear that this link only fitted when a security system is not included.

The diagram covering the engine electrical system indicates that when fitted, the security system incorporates a starter interrupt relay, the contacts of which are in circuit in place of the adaptor link. It would appear that all US models will have this normally open relay, which must be energised for starting.

This is a nigger in the wood pile which requires investigation. I agree that the problem is indeed “ so --- complicated ---” but logical fault tracing must result in success. Unfortunately I can not take the matter further, as I do not have a car with the OEM security system.