ECUtune Stage 2v6 ethanol, e85, flex fuel, turbo, supercharger, force induction

[longassname]

Ok boys and girls, we've got some Stage 3 cars on the road and being put on the road and now I can turn my attention back to what I do: Engine management software.

I know some of you were wondering what "secret" Chris refered to in the Stage 3 thread that I am working on and I see that the topic of E85 has come up in one of Phil's turbo threads. I'm guessing because he knows the "secret" since he lives in a corn state and is one of our guinea pigs. The "secret" is we are replacing the 2nd version of software on our memory adaptors (the 87 octane code, nitrous code, etc) with software for e85. The first version which will be available for purchase is Stage 2v6. We will be testing it this week before shipping but believe it is done.

Both the premium unlead software in the default memory location of 2v6 and the e85 software in the 2nd memory location of 2v6 incorporate a couple of other substantial improvements. In the stage 2v6 software a lot of ignition timing has been moved from the revision table into the primary table. This changes around the way things work. Instead of the ecu having to learn in additional advance now it runs it to begin with and if need be can take it out according to the knock sensors. With this change we see about 5 degrees more ignition advance being utilized very happily through out a wide range of driving conditions on the street. This provides a real performance improvement in all types of driving conditions.

There are two areas of the table which are not normally seen in a stock svx but are now important for a number of mod'ed svx's out there. The above mentioned change to the timing table dramatically changed the shape of the timing table in those areas for HUGE improvements for these modded cars. The two areas are for 1) of course, svx"ii with forced induction 2)svx'ii with manual transmissions.

There is now an appropriate amount of timing at low rpms to maintian engine operation while shifting a manual transmission. The prior lack is a likely culprit for stalling issues many svx'ii with manual transmission conversions have encountered. There is now also an appropriate amount of ignition timing for those running higher loads than factory. Performance with forced induction etc are hugely improved.

[shotgunslade]

Michael:

That sounds really good. Can't wait to make the upgrade. You have created any army of addicts out there who faithfully line up for your latest enhancement. count me as one. I guess this will be the fourth one of your chips I have had in my car.

[$ gest24 $]

Sounds like a good thing to try out and see some numbers on the Dyno over 2V5. How do you do the "upgrade" in software for current customers?

[Bobb]

Hi LAN, Its my understanding that if a vehicle is not piumbed to take E85 in the fuel system that E85 will "eat" the hoses, gaskets, etc. And because of the reduced BTU's in E85 you will get about 30% less fuel mileage. Also I don't know what effect E85 will have, long term, on our plastic gas tanks. Take card, BOBB

[longassname]

It's my understanding that after the fuel shortages in the late 70's when they did mix ethanol into the gasoline despite vehicles having some materials with incompatiblities in them that in the 80's US regulations were modified requiring auto manufacturers to make all vehicles for US markets ethanol compatible. It's probably an excellent idea to change those antique hoses anyway. Both Dayco and Gates fuel injector hose are multi fuel compatible--they have been for over a year.

On the note of probable fuel efficiency with E85 in a propperly tuned SVX: It does require about 30% more E85 by volume to attain the propper afr; however, that does not mean that your fuel efficiency will go down 30%. I think it's interesting and worth pointing out that with the stage 1v4 software we increased the fuel injected by 12% and didn't see any decrease in fuel economy because the resultant power improvement gave us something back for our 12%. It's not exactly the same situation with the E85 because 30% is a lot more than 12% and because that 30% is consistent even under light loads; however, we can expect the significant performance improvements we will see with E85 to lessen the impact on mileage very nicely.

Really what it comes down to in my mind is that the SVX engine is barely able to operate with US premium unleaded and would really prefer a higher octane fuel. E85 is 105 octane and is basically a better fuel for the SVX in every way. In fact the higher mass of E85 injected benifits performance by increasing cooling. The increased mass caries the heat from the combustion chamber out the exhaust.

Besides being superior for a stock svx engine the burning characteristics and increased mass of the E85 fuel charge should prove an amazing improvement for forced induction which has even higher dynamic compression.

Originally Posted by Bobb

Hi LAN, Its my understanding that if a vehicle is not piumbed to take E85 in the fuel system that E85 will "eat" the hoses, gaskets, etc. And because of the reduced BTU's in E85 you will get about 30% less fuel mileage. Also I don't know what effect E85 will have, long term, on our plastic gas tanks. Take card, BOBB

[longassname]

Having given my opinion on E85 and the SVX I want to make clear that is just my opinion. The stage 2v6 software should not be considered an e85 conversion kit. It is as all of our products are for off road use only and it is the purchaser's responsibility to determine the applicability and combatibility of it for their application.

[SVXRide]

Micheal,
Great news! Have you been following the "Cam Lobes" thread? Do you see any issues with running the 2V6 chip with the cams we're looking at for NA applications? Gest24's dyno runs with the stage 1 intake cams, 2v5 chip and z32 MAF looked pretty good, other than being a little lean (which I'd attibute to the use of the stock fpr). Other than the change in the timing table, are there any AFR-related changes?.
-Bill (looking forward to 2v6'dom!)

[mikecg]

I thought I had read somewhere that switching a car to E85 required more than just reprograming the ECU. I thought it rquired a complete change of a majority of the fuel system components. It was my understanding that E85 was corrosive and would slowly damage a standard tank, fuel lines, injectors, ect. and damage rubber seals.

[drivemusicnow]

I'm pretty sure that LAN just answered all of your questions but I'll give a go as well.

For the most part, any car produced after 1985-ish should have a fuel system capable of handling E85... In some states for almost 30 years "E10" has been used, which is just 10% ethanol, 90% "gas"... E85 is obviously 85% ethanol... Alcohol is known to be corrosive towards some rubber, however I am fairly sure that the difference in part life would be slight at best.

Obviously niether LAN or I can guarantee that it won't cause some random gasket to fail, however as this "conversion" is becoming common in the automotive world, i think it is safe to say that you would be fine using the stock system with E85...



on another note, yes, fuel mileage does decrease by 30%, but in some areas E85 is 20-50% cheaper than gasoline. Typically most people find that it equals out in the end, neither gaining nor losing miles per dollar.

[Beav]

Uh, y'all are absolutely wrong regarding E85. Vehicles that are rated to use it have vast differences. Ethanol is highly corrosive and more than a few rubber hoses are required. The metallurgy of the entire engine is different.

The 'gasohol' of the '70s and '80s was never supposed to exceed 3-7%, yet many distributors kept adding more until they began receiving complaints. Then they backed it down a point or two but even that was still enough to cause problems. Usually they ended up around 9-11%. That was enough to eat the zinc from carburetors, turning them into junk. Carbs were made from base metal with zinc which filled the pores. Ethanol/methanol attacked the zinc and made the carbs porous.

Now imagine what 85% ethanol is going to do to pistons, camshafts, etc. Hoses will be the least of your problems.

[Speedklix]

Aluminumuminimum.... I've seen cans eaten through.

But it sounds like a great meathod of making the mt swap more complete.

[Speedklix]

to clarify....
Steel components of our engine may be fine... but it will eat right through all our aluminum and it gets worse when you heat it up. Beav is dead on, zinc is a great example... ethanol eats it just like aluminum.

[longassname]

Isn't ethanol only corrosive when contanimated with water?

Weren't natural rubbers, cork, and exposed aluminum eliminated from engine components manufactured after 1988?

It seems to me like everything is geared up for ethanol now. It's getting pretty hard to find new parts that aren't ehtanol compatible. I'm rebuilding an 85 chrysler 318 which originally had all kinds of non ethanol compatible parts but every cork gasket for it now has been replaced with nitrile coated fiber, paper gaskets replaced with nitrile gaskets, etc etc. I'm willing to bet the new eldebrock carb I'm puttin on it is compatible too.

I haven't seen them yet but I believe they are also making engine oils with additives that combat formic acid in the event that you do get water contaminated e85.

[shotgunslade]

Michael:

So, what will the damage be for us addicts of your continuing stream of wonderful chips that so enhance our motorsport experience? Guess I'll have to steal another color TV to support my habit.

[Beav]

I was in a rush this morning and may have come across terse, but the facts remain.

The 'rubber' parts are the least of your worries.

Find a hydrocarbon that isn't hygroscopic. Ever hear of scotch and water? Bourbon and branch water? Gas Dry? (alcohol that absorbs moisture from fuel?)

Steel components that aren't subject to wear will probably be o.k. but parts that endure wear - camshafts, wrist pins, blah, blah, blah will catch hell.

Every manufacturer that has vehicles designed for E85 specifically states so. I don't know of, and doubt the existence of, any OEMs that don't specifically state that E85 should not be used in any of their vehicles not designed specifically for its use. It is a selling point. I know for certain that Fords so designed have small square emblems with a green tree branch that winds off into the horizon, like a road, that denote their ethanol capable cars and trucks. I also know they spent several years in testing in south america before they were brought to market here, a number of years ago. I also know there was a heckuva lot more involved in their development than changing a few hoses... not to mention the cars' own ability to figure out what fuel it is operating on.