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  #16  
Old 05-09-2005, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SVXtasy
Well my turbo is quite some distance form the exhaust port so I don’t think that heat will be a problem. But I would like to put two of the LC-1's in the stock locations. What is the problem heat? Or flow? I have heard both. If I keep my EGT's below 850c then the sensor should not have any problems right? Don’t the sensors work at everything below 850c EGT? Thanks
I wouldn't think its a flow problem. I think heat is the usual problem. But if you are behind the turbo, I think you're fine. The drop in exhaust pressure across the turbo will have a cooling effect on the exhaust gas.
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  #17  
Old 05-09-2005, 03:56 PM
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got data

Finally did some AFR runs. I don't have rpm, TPS, or MAF datalogging enabled yet. Here's the mods I've done to my car:

1) I'm running an Impreza 2.5 RS fuel pressure regulator in my car which should richen the AFR by one point in open-loop mode (greater than 25% throttle).
2) The car has a custom exhaust.
3) I'm running aftermarket sparkplugs.
4) I've got a very mild ram-air system installed.
Otherwise, the motor is stock.

My first general observation is that when the engine is operating in closed-loop mode (light throttle), the afr is right on stoich. I'm surprised the SVX doesn't get better gas mileage.

My second general observation is that at aggressive throttle positions where the engine is operating in open-loop mode, the afr is super rich with the Impreza 2.5RS fpr. Its in the range of 12.5:1 to 11.5:1. No wonder the exhaust tips on my car are covered in soot!

Anyhow, I did four runs, with each run a little different. Some of the plots are shown below. In every case, once the ecu goes open-loop, the afr quickly richens to 12.5:1, and then gets even richer as the engine goes past 5000 rpm.

So, the next step is the throw the OEM SVX fpr back on the car and do another set of runs. Glad I kept it. This should put the afr in the range of 13.5-12.5:1, but its probably not the best solution either. Below 5000 rpm, the afr will be a little to lean for max power, and then beyond 5000 rpm, it will be right on the money for max power. The best solution would probably be to install an SAFC-II so that the afr could tuned to 13:1 across the entire rpm range.

It would be very interesting to see what afr values would be obtained on a completely stock car.

Run #3 (afr vs time): 3rd gear, WOT, uphill



Run #3 (afr vs rpm): 3rd gear, WOT, uphill



Run #2 (afr vs time): 4th gear, WOT, slight incline



Run #4 (afr vs time): 3rd gear, about 1/2 throttle, slight incline
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SVX Mods: ND iridium spark plugs, Impreza RS fpr, afr tuned to 13.2:1 using a custom MAF bypass, custom exhaust, WRX 5MT w/ STi RA 1st-4th gear & stock WRX 5th gear, Exedy 13 lb flywheel & Sport Clutch, STi Group N tranny & engine mounts, urethane spacers in rear subframe, rear diff mounts, and pitch stopper, SVX Sport Strut Springs (185f/150r), custom 19 mm rear swaybar, urethane swaybar mounts, Rota Torque 17x8", 225/45-17 Proxes 4 tires, Axxis Deluxe Plus organic brake pads.

Last edited by mbtoloczko; 05-09-2005 at 04:06 PM.
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  #18  
Old 05-09-2005, 07:32 PM
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Mychailo,
Nice! Are you going to try to do some runs with your Mr. Dyno running in parallel?
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  #19  
Old 05-09-2005, 10:57 PM
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Interesting results Mychailo. I guess that graph explains a lot of my findings with the Impreza fpr as well. However, based on my dyno runs with the stock fpr last December, the richest the afr ever got was ~13.4:1-13.3:1 at WOT above 5000rpms.

It's interesting that the afr centers around 12.5:1 and then becomes even richer in the upper rpms! Per an article in SubieSport Magazine a few months back (when Huck369 was first featured), an afr of 11.6:1 or richer is needed to safely run an extra 5* of timing advance... Maybe I know what my next mod will be!

-Chike

P.S. I was doing some calculations the other day and realized just how much more fuel our engines would get in open loop by raising the fuel pressure by ~7psi.

Our injectors flow 275cc/min at a fuel pressure of 36.3psi
If the max fuel pressure is raised to 43.5 psi, then our injectors will effectively be able to flow: 329.5cc/min

Moreover, if people have estimated that 275cc/min can support 250hp on the motor, then 329.5cc/min should be able to support 295hp (assuming a linear relationship).
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  #20  
Old 05-09-2005, 11:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiketkd
Interesting results Mychailo. I guess that graph explains a lot of my findings with the Impreza fpr as well. However, based on my dyno runs with the stock fpr last December, the richest the afr ever got was ~13.4:1-13.3:1 at WOT above 5000rpms.

It's interesting that the afr centers around 12.5:1 and then becomes even richer in the upper rpms! Per an article in SubieSport Magazine a few months back (when Huck369 was first featured), an afr of 11.6:1 or richer is needed to safely run an extra 5* of timing advance... Maybe I know what my next mod will be!

-Chike

P.S. I was doing some calculations the other day and realized just how much more fuel our engines would get in open loop by raising the fuel pressure by ~7psi.

Our injectors flow 275cc/min at a fuel pressure of 36.3psi
If the max fuel pressure is raised to 43.5 psi, then our injectors will effectively be able to flow: 329.5cc/min

Moreover, if people have estimated that 275cc/min can support 250hp on the motor, then 329.5cc/min should be able to support 295hp (assuming a linear relationship).

hence why, with the bumped up fp on my dry shot, i can run the 80 shot no problem(easliy 7lbs more of fp)
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  #21  
Old 05-09-2005, 11:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phast SVX
hence why, with the bumped up fp on my dry shot, i can run the 80 shot no problem(easliy 7lbs more of fp)
phil
Good point. An Impreza fpr definitely has it +ves in an SVX!

I definitely plan to keep the '01 Impreza fpr in my car. In closed loop, the afr stays around stoich so my gas mileage won't suffer, but in open loop, it'll be able to support some extra hp down the road (performance cams, etc.)

-Chike
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  #22  
Old 05-10-2005, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiketkd
Interesting results Mychailo. I guess that graph explains a lot of my findings with the Impreza fpr as well. However, based on my dyno runs with the stock fpr last December, the richest the afr ever got was ~13.4:1-13.3:1 at WOT above 5000rpms.

It's interesting that the afr centers around 12.5:1 and then becomes even richer in the upper rpms! Per an article in SubieSport Magazine a few months back (when Huck369 was first featured), an afr of 11.6:1 or richer is needed to safely run an extra 5* of timing advance... Maybe I know what my next mod will be!

-Chike

P.S. I was doing some calculations the other day and realized just how much more fuel our engines would get in open loop by raising the fuel pressure by ~7psi.

Our injectors flow 275cc/min at a fuel pressure of 36.3psi
If the max fuel pressure is raised to 43.5 psi, then our injectors will effectively be able to flow: 329.5cc/min

Moreover, if people have estimated that 275cc/min can support 250hp on the motor, then 329.5cc/min should be able to support 295hp (assuming a linear relationship).
Hi Chike,

When you did the dyno runs in your car, I would guess that the shop simply put a wide-band O2 sensor in the tailpipe of your car. If that's the case, the afr reading is not going to be terribly accurate because its taking a reading of the exhaust after it goes through catalytic converters. From what I've read, dyno systems add a generic correction factor to the afr reading to attempt to compensate for the exhaust gas composition being altered by the cats. Bottom line is that the afr readings from your dyno runs are only approximate.

Be careful about running too rich. Running too rich can also cause detonation. 11.6:1 is probably not the optimum afr for timing advance.

I have not been able to understand why, but fuel flow from a fuel injector is not linearly proportional to the fuel pressure. Its proportional to the square root of the fuel pressure. I've talked with RCEng about it several times. Its what they see when they measure the flow rate of injectors. So going from 36.3 psi to 43.5 psi will only raise the max fuel flow by 9.5%.

I'd like to throw the SVX fpr back in the car, but I don't think I'm going to have time for about a month.
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SVX Mods: ND iridium spark plugs, Impreza RS fpr, afr tuned to 13.2:1 using a custom MAF bypass, custom exhaust, WRX 5MT w/ STi RA 1st-4th gear & stock WRX 5th gear, Exedy 13 lb flywheel & Sport Clutch, STi Group N tranny & engine mounts, urethane spacers in rear subframe, rear diff mounts, and pitch stopper, SVX Sport Strut Springs (185f/150r), custom 19 mm rear swaybar, urethane swaybar mounts, Rota Torque 17x8", 225/45-17 Proxes 4 tires, Axxis Deluxe Plus organic brake pads.

Last edited by mbtoloczko; 05-10-2005 at 11:08 AM.
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  #23  
Old 05-10-2005, 10:26 AM
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Mychailo, do you think phenolic spacers would lean the mixture due to lower intake manifold temps?

And what were the ambiant temps?

I want one too.
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  #24  
Old 05-10-2005, 10:59 AM
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Mychailo,
Parts ordered from Innovate! Exhaust mods are scheduled for the 25th of this month, so I'll be ready for road tests by the end of the month!
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  #25  
Old 05-10-2005, 11:00 AM
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Actually the stock injectors only flow 270cc at 3 bar. There is unfortunately no getting around it; the fuel injectors are tiny. The amount of fuel increase to go from the afr you want to dirty rich isn't really very much in comparison to to the amount of fuel increase to get more hp. I'll let you guys play with that math yourself. I think you'll find it interesting.

As for the afr on a completely stock svx you can see them now on the ECUtune website. At the upper rpms an afr anywhere between what we have on stage 1 and factory will do well, any richer and you will loose power--at least in the case of a stock svx. When we developed stage 1 on the dyno we didn't have the v4 ignition timing revision map alterations in place yet. It's possible that with this ability to further advance the ignition timing that even a little richer afr would be beneficial.

It's cool you guys are getting out there and measuring this stuff for yourself. It's nice to see some performance oriented svx'ers out there.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiketkd
Interesting results Mychailo. I guess that graph explains a lot of my findings with the Impreza fpr as well. However, based on my dyno runs with the stock fpr last December, the richest the afr ever got was ~13.4:1-13.3:1 at WOT above 5000rpms.

It's interesting that the afr centers around 12.5:1 and then becomes even richer in the upper rpms! Per an article in SubieSport Magazine a few months back (when Huck369 was first featured), an afr of 11.6:1 or richer is needed to safely run an extra 5* of timing advance... Maybe I know what my next mod will be!

-Chike

P.S. I was doing some calculations the other day and realized just how much more fuel our engines would get in open loop by raising the fuel pressure by ~7psi.

Our injectors flow 275cc/min at a fuel pressure of 36.3psi
If the max fuel pressure is raised to 43.5 psi, then our injectors will effectively be able to flow: 329.5cc/min

Moreover, if people have estimated that 275cc/min can support 250hp on the motor, then 329.5cc/min should be able to support 295hp (assuming a linear relationship).
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  #26  
Old 05-10-2005, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SVXRide
Mychailo,
Parts ordered from Innovate! Exhaust mods are scheduled for the 25th of this month, so I'll be ready for road tests by the end of the month!
-Bill
PM me with your home address.
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SVX Mods: ND iridium spark plugs, Impreza RS fpr, afr tuned to 13.2:1 using a custom MAF bypass, custom exhaust, WRX 5MT w/ STi RA 1st-4th gear & stock WRX 5th gear, Exedy 13 lb flywheel & Sport Clutch, STi Group N tranny & engine mounts, urethane spacers in rear subframe, rear diff mounts, and pitch stopper, SVX Sport Strut Springs (185f/150r), custom 19 mm rear swaybar, urethane swaybar mounts, Rota Torque 17x8", 225/45-17 Proxes 4 tires, Axxis Deluxe Plus organic brake pads.
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  #27  
Old 05-10-2005, 08:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbtoloczko
Hi Chike,

When you did the dyno runs in your car, I would guess that the shop simply put a wide-band O2 sensor in the tailpipe of your car. If that's the case, the afr reading is not going to be terribly accurate because its taking a reading of the exhaust after it goes through catalytic converters. From what I've read, dyno systems add a generic correction factor to the afr reading to attempt to compensate for the exhaust gas composition being altered by the cats. Bottom line is that the afr readings from your dyno runs are only approximate.

Be careful about running too rich. Running too rich can also cause detonation. 11.6:1 is probably not the optimum afr for timing advance.

I have not been able to understand why, but fuel flow from a fuel injector is not linearly proportional to the fuel pressure. Its proportional to the square root of the fuel pressure. I've talked with RCEng about it several times. Its what they see when they measure the flow rate of injectors. So going from 36.3 psi to 43.5 psi will only raise the max fuel flow by 9.5%.

I'd like to throw the SVX fpr back in the car, but I don't think I'm going to have time for about a month.
Mychailo,

You are right that the dyno shop only measured my afr from the tail pipe. As a result, I'd be very interested in learning whether the stock SVX ECU actually richens the afr to somewhere in the 12:1-13:1 range in open loop operation. That'd be pretty optimum for a factory fuel system!

I came across the following graph today showing the pressure created by burning gas at different afr's taken from 'The Sports Car Engine: Its Tuning and Modification' by Colin Campbell:



http://www.ackthud.net/shawnfogg/mixture.htm

It is noted on the above site that: "Maximum power is usually obtained running around a 12.3:1 AFR. Going richer then that will cost a little power but you loose less power then being leaner then 12.3:1"

Depending on your wideband results with the SVX fpr, I may switch back to one. I just don't understand why the afr was first richened to 12.5:1 in open loop and then went all the way to 11.4:1 above 5000rpms???? (I was expecting it to actually lean out slightly in the upper rpms)

My dyno plot at Altered Atmosphere on 12-15-04 showed the slightest richening in the afr's above 5000rpms, but nothing to the degree that you measured...



My thoghts:

If the max fuel flow was truly only increased by 9.5% by raising the fuel pressure to 43.5psi, then an afr of around 12.5:1 in open loop would be the expected result. The increase to 11.5:1 makes me think that something else may be at play...

- Is the vacuum line that goes to your Impreza fpr properly hooked up and in good condition? (any small cracks in the rubber???)

- You mentioned you have aftermarket spark plugs. Are they running a colder or hotter spark compared to the stock NGK's? I know certain types of plugs work better in richer or leaner afr's. Is it possible that your aftermarket plugs might not be the best suited for running in a rich afr mixture?

Just my $0.02...

-Chike
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Last edited by Chiketkd; 05-10-2005 at 08:39 PM.
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  #28  
Old 05-10-2005, 11:56 PM
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All this richening of afr at high RPMs says to me that the SVX could really benefit from some variable valve timing. Rather, to generalize this statement, increase the air at high RPMs and you may be able to lean out the mixture just enough to gain some power.
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  #29  
Old 05-11-2005, 07:54 AM
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Two other thoughts Mychailo:

- Have you modified your fuel pump or voltage to your fuel pump in any way?

- How have you set up your ram air? Is it possible that your engine may be starved of air above 5,000rpms?

Just tossing around some ideas...

-Chike
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  #30  
Old 05-11-2005, 10:06 AM
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Chike,

I have that same fuel consumption vs cylinder pressure plot in my locker. :-) As far as I know, the 2.5 RS fpr is working fine. I haven't looked at the vacuum line though. I haven't touched the fuel pump in any way. I suppose its possible that the ram air is having some effect, but keep in mind that the ecu does not just blindly add fuel. It meters fuel based on the MAF sensor reading (among other readings), so if the ram air is somehow messing up airflow at high rpm, the MAF would see this, and the ecu would add less fuel accordingly.

I'm fairly convinced that the afr reading is representative of what the SVX ecu is programmed to do. The other EG33 afr readouts from dyno runs that I've seen (SVXRide, LAN) show the afr progressively richening as the rpms increase. And if I look at the afr readings from your dyno runs, I see the same basic trend too. The afr on your car does richen as the rpms increase, and at peak rpm, there is a slight lean out. My afr runs show the same thing, and so do LANs.

As deruvian said, a little more power may be possible with the 2.5RS fpr by leaning out the mixture a bit at higher rpm using an SAFC-II (or something like it).
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:: 2006 Silver Mitsubishi Evolution 9, E85, 34 psi peak, 425wtq/505whp DJ ::
1995 Laguna Blue SVX L AWD 5MT (sold)

Visit my locker

SVX Mods: ND iridium spark plugs, Impreza RS fpr, afr tuned to 13.2:1 using a custom MAF bypass, custom exhaust, WRX 5MT w/ STi RA 1st-4th gear & stock WRX 5th gear, Exedy 13 lb flywheel & Sport Clutch, STi Group N tranny & engine mounts, urethane spacers in rear subframe, rear diff mounts, and pitch stopper, SVX Sport Strut Springs (185f/150r), custom 19 mm rear swaybar, urethane swaybar mounts, Rota Torque 17x8", 225/45-17 Proxes 4 tires, Axxis Deluxe Plus organic brake pads.
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