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  #61  
Old 01-20-2005, 03:25 PM
Shadow248 Shadow248 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by NapaBavarian
I'm not sure what your point is- that cars that are rated as "acceptable" are unsafe? here is mine, a few years ago I delt with a 1969 BMW 2002 that hit a parked suburban at 35-40mph, the passanger cage was largely intact, the doors were bent, but still opened and closed easily.. I expect inexpensive import cars to be unsafe and not have a protective cage, but by the mid 90s the big 3 should have gotten the clue and made their cars safer, there is no logical reason that cars built in the last 20 years in one of the leading nations in technology should colapse the way the 2 american cars shown at the begining of this post did. These are not by any means cheap or inexpensive cars and It looks like a great way to kill your customers if you are an automaker. No car is perfect, but that is absurd, it reaks of the tobaco industry and I would like everyone to see these pictures and be aware of the aparent low importance of safty to american car makers.
My point is simply that American cars are no worse safety wise than Imports. You can find good and bad ones on both sides of the ocean. You haven't noticed the different priorities of designers of cars sold here in the US vs. cars sold Overseas? It even applies to American automakers who sell their cars overseas. The idea in this country is: sacrifice the car, save the people in it. American cars, even most new ones, will be completely destroyed in serious accidents, however they are made to do so in order to dissipate the force of the crash and protect the passengers. The airbags, safety restraints, and the general design of the interior keep the passengers safe. Whereas the belief in other countries is that if the car stays largely intact, the passengers will be safer. I've seen no evidence to prove either philosiphy right or wrong.

Just last month, a Volvo S60 T-boned a Monte Carlo at the intersection right down the street from my house. Very serious accidents happen at this intersection at least once a month...there are large buildings on three of the four corners, thus making turning a "cross-your-fingers" endeavor. Anyway, in this case, the driver of the Volvo was killed on impact, and the passenger sustained critical injuries, where all occupants of the Monte Carlo walked away with minor bruises.

In fact, on the news today, a Ford Focus was literally run over by an 18-wheeler when it couldn't stop. They showed the wreckage of the car - it was unrecognizeable...the car was shredded. Both occupants of the car walked away.

Point being, no car is safe. Period.

This is a dumb argument, do you realize this?
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  #62  
Old 01-20-2005, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shadow248


Point being, no car is safe. Period.

This is a dumb argument, do you realize this?
Um, yeah, but I never said that there was a safe car, but you have been saying that american cars are just as safe as other cars, but if all the cars have the acceptable rating you cant diferentiate better from worse by that mark, you need to find what is different. The difference here is the red and black marks.

If the passanger cage colapses and destroyes the car it will crush who ever is in the crushed area, you must disapate the energy arround the passanger compartment.

BTW, that volvo story sounds suspicous, what happened to the Monte Carlo driver/passanger? Was said Volvo driver wearing her seatbelt? What was the speed?
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  #63  
Old 01-21-2005, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by NapaGBavarian
If the passanger cage colapses and destroyes the car it will crush who ever is in the crushed area, you must disapate the energy arround the passanger compartment.
However, that fact does not require the passenger compartment to stay perfectly intact. The Structure above and beneath can be made to warp in order to better dissipate energy, much like those pics you posted.

Quote:
Originally posted by NapaGBavarian
BTW, that volvo story sounds suspicous, what happened to the Monte Carlo driver/passanger? Was said Volvo driver wearing her seatbelt? What was the speed?
And that illustrates my point quite well. yes it is strange...regardless of the cars involved, in that situation, you would have expected very much the opposite of what happened.

I only know what I heard in the news and from my neighbors, but here's as much detail as i can give:

It was a Silver Volvo, and a White 2000+ Monte Carlo. The Volvo driver tried to beat the light and was estimated to be doing 50mph (in a 45mph zone) or better entering the intersection. He was coming up a hill into the intersection (Two of the roads are a fairly steep inclined grade entering the intersection, one is level, and one is a slight downhill grade). The MC was entering the intersection after being stopped at the light on road that enters downhill. So the MC couldn't have been doing more than 10mph. This brings me to the dangerous part of this intersection...esp on this corner, there is a very large restaraunt right on the corner...you can't see the road to your right until you are in the intersection. The MC entered the intersection on green, and the Volvo, trying to make it through the light, slammed the MC on the passenger side right at the front door seam. I can't say for sure of course, but I was told that it looked like the passenger must have ended up on the driver's lap, cause the passenger side of the car was pretty well annihilated. As for the Volvo...the police said that the airbags did inflate, however they believe that the driver's bag was not sufficiently inflated when the impact occured. They didn't specify, but I assume he was killed from head injuries. They also did not specify if he was wearing his seatbelt. All they said about the MC occupants was that there were three, and that they were treated on site and released.

Which illustrates my point very well. You can be hurt or killed in any car. All those safety ratings and tests don't mean squat when you're dead.

Last edited by Shadow248; 01-21-2005 at 10:25 AM.
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  #64  
Old 01-21-2005, 10:30 AM
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but in genegal your chances are better in a car that is built with safty in mind, no seatbelt or siting too close to the stering wheel is dangerous and will nulify any safty advances. Also, if the montecarlo was hit at the front door seam then it should have spun arround and disapated the energy, while the volvo would have taken more energy directly.
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  #65  
Old 01-21-2005, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by NapaBavarian
but in genegal your chances are better in a car that is built with safty in mind, no seatbelt or siting too close to the stering wheel is dangerous and will nulify any safty advances. Also, if the montecarlo was hit at the front door seam then it should have spun arround and disapated the energy, while the volvo would have taken more energy directly.
Doesn't matter.

The point is, it doesn't matter how safe the government rated your car. You can still die in it. And it's still more dangerous to drive it than to jump out of an airplane. The safest car in the world could kill all it's occupants in a particular accident where the biggest POS would come out unscathed. You can't predict how an accident will happen, therefore you can't design a truly "safe" car. So why split hairs and worry yourself when this BS doesn't make a difference anyway?
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  #66  
Old 01-21-2005, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shadow248


Doesn't matter.

The point is, it doesn't matter how safe the government rated your car. You can still die in it. And it's still more dangerous to drive it than to jump out of an airplane. The safest car in the world could kill all it's occupants in a particular accident where the biggest POS would come out unscathed. You can't predict how an accident will happen, therefore you can't design a truly "safe" car. So why split hairs and worry yourself when this BS doesn't make a difference anyway?
You are the one who insisted I was wrong, then you change your arguement to it dosn't matter anyway all I said is back up your insistance that american cars are JUST AS SAFE as the brands I listed.
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  #67  
Old 01-21-2005, 01:44 PM
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I thought I'd scan your sites to see what I could find, some cars were on a somewhat level playing field, some were drastically different.

http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_rat...ns_front_c.htm

Serious problem with GM as illistrated in my first picture.

http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_rat...uv_front_c.htm

GM again at the bottom of the list

http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_rat..._overall_c.htm

GM again from the middle to the bottom

http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_rat..._overall_c.htm

Again



Here's what I really wanted to find for you, a real world comparison of how many drivers are actually killed in various makes/models.

http://www.hwysafety.org/sr_ddr/sr3507_t2.htm

Notice how the majority of the tables with american and foreign have american cars on the bottom end of the scale?
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  #68  
Old 01-21-2005, 09:47 PM
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This has already been done. If I cared anymore, I could easily go out there and find you 5 more links that support my side, but what would that accomplish? I've more than made my point here, don't waste your time on this argument anymore.
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  #69  
Old 01-22-2005, 12:24 AM
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actually you havn't, no comparisons, just individual examples that prove nothing...
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  #70  
Old 01-22-2005, 05:12 AM
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uh oh, Mandi's Grand Am has teh poor crash rating!

if you really cared for her, you'd buy her a Legacy.
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  #71  
Old 01-22-2005, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by NapaBavarian
actually you havn't, no comparisons, just individual examples that prove nothing...
Well then I was much more successful than I thought. I used "examples that prove nothing" to refute an argument that proved nothing to begin with.

Quote:
Originally posted by Landshark
if you really cared for her, you'd buy her a Legacy.
She would never talk to me again if I bought her ANYTHING Subaru. Plus, I would never put myself through the torture of listening to her constant complaints again.

Last edited by Shadow248; 01-22-2005 at 10:23 AM.
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  #72  
Old 01-22-2005, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shadow248
She would never talk to me again if I bought her ANYTHING Subaru. Plus, I would never put myself through the torture of listening to her constant complaints again.
Grand Am's and Grand Prix's aren't all that bad. They don't have the rattly fiberglass body like the camaro-bird, and have decent performance for fwd cars.

-Chike
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  #73  
Old 01-22-2005, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shadow248


She would never talk to me again if I bought her ANYTHING Subaru. Plus, I would never put myself through the torture of listening to her constant complaints again.
well, a high-mileage SVX in rough condition isn't going to leave a good taste in anyone's mouth.

my SVX is going to need its second repair in 3 years. first, a bad $80 coil pack, and now a $35 power antenna mast. not too shabby. at 70,000 miles, my old Lumina was literally falling apart.
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  #74  
Old 01-22-2005, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shadow248

Well then I was much more successful than I thought. I used "examples that prove nothing" to refute an argument that proved nothing to begin with.
you are the one who wanted to aggue- and my point of the pictures I showed was proven with back up evidence in both fatality rates and crash tests.

If the safty of a given car dosn't matter why dont we get rid of seat belts, after all they don't gaurantee you will survive and in a few rare cases may worsten the injury. Same for airbags, if misused they can kill(mostly the old ones), so lets can those so ignorant people dont hurt themselves. Hey, non of the safty features will mean that you will survive, get rid of all of them and make cars less expensive!

It may not bother you that acording to hwysaftey.org the driver fatality rate in mandys car is 150% of average and your bird is 300% of average. You have every right to drive what you want, but you specifically said that GM is just as safe as anything else before you said it dosn't matter anyway.

Perhaps the powers that be really hate GM and just want to make them look bad, so they go out of their way to sway the results against GM. Maby.

I don't come up with an opinion and look for evidence to back it up, I look at a broad range of evidence, hopefully from multiple sources, and spend time geting to understand it, then come to an unbiased conclusion.
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  #75  
Old 01-22-2005, 12:12 PM
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It may not bother you that acording to hwysaftey.org the driver fatality rate in mandys car is 150% of average and your bird is 300% of average. You have every right to drive what you want, but you specifically said that GM is just as safe as anything else before you said it dosn't matter anyway.


I kinda hate stepping in now but are they comparing these numbers to the types of idiots driving them...? namely camaro-birds are generally redneck beer drinkin leadfooted types, where as the the smaller (or less powerful) cars that have smaller slower accidents to cause less damage in the accednt un less involved with the aforementioned. (btw no offense to anoybody just more of a generalisation)
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