The Subaru SVX World Network   SVX Network Forums
Live Chat!
SVX or Subaru Links
Old Lockers
Photo Post
How-To Documents
Message Archive
SVX Shop Search
IRC users:

Go Back   The Subaru SVX World Network > SVX Main Forums > Not Exactly SVX

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-02-2004, 08:00 PM
SVXphile's Avatar
SVXphile SVXphile is offline
Ain't it the truth?
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Hinton, WV
Posts: 2,386
Send a message via Yahoo to SVXphile
The high cost of F1

Seems like we were just discussing this a few weeks ago.
From the new Autoweek:

"Trying to slow rising costs in F1, Ford vice-president Richard Parry-Jones is proposing a cap on F1 teams' operating budgets. "We have to find a way to offer the spectators a good show without wasting immense sums," Parry-Jones said. "If we don't succeed in doing so, the future of F1 is looking dark." Meanwhile, Renault F1 boss Flavio Briatore has called for a cost-cutting summit. "This escalation is crazy," Briatore said. "The team principals need to sit down and cut the costs by 50 percent."

---------------------------

One might say this is just sour grapes; an attempt to help end Ferrari domination.....but there is no doubt that the cost of this kind of racing has reached the point of insanity. Maybe, if the costs were lowered dramatically, perhaps more cars could be entered, perhaps three per team, and more seats made available for talented, drivers. Maybe even for an American?
Don
__________________
Cats: Clio, Inky, Sheba, Sparky, Rocky, Cali, Scooter
3 cars: 02 SVT Focus, 2012 Versa...2015 Fiat 500
currently SVX-less
1 wife ("She, who must be obeyed..")

"One advantage of being disorderly is that one is constantly making exciting discoveries"
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-03-2004, 12:21 PM
Mr. Pockets's Avatar
Mr. Pockets Mr. Pockets is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Champaign, IL
Posts: 6,916
Send a message via ICQ to Mr. Pockets
Registered SVX
The teams will never agree to a budget cap for a few reasons. Mostly, I think they all know that as soon as they implemented such a cap they'd have to overspend to keep up with everybody else's overspending.

I think that they're all going to have to voluntarily cut their budgets because it won't make sense to spend what they're spending. Or they'll keep spending what they are.

People who wave their hands above their heads yelling, 'the sky is falling, we have to cut our budgets!!!' don't realize that F1 is a business just like anything else. If costs have to be cut, they will be cut. If they haven't been cut yet, then things haven't gotten bad enough to cut them.

Incidentally, I just watched the 1994 San Marino GP - the race in whcih Ayrton Senna died. Roland Ratzenberger also died during qualifying. Not only that, but a Minardi lost a wheel in the pit lane. Since there were no pit lane speed limits at the time, the wheel charged through about three teams' pit crews. What a horrifying weekend, but I think the Speed Channel did a great job covering it.
__________________


2005 RX-8 Grand Touring
2005 Outback
2002 Mercedes-Benz E320 wagon

END OF LINE
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-03-2004, 02:13 PM
SVXphile's Avatar
SVXphile SVXphile is offline
Ain't it the truth?
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Hinton, WV
Posts: 2,386
Send a message via Yahoo to SVXphile
Senna

Shoot, I forgot about that program. I had wanted to watch it again. If memory serves me, the in-car camera that showed Senna going off track was in Michael Shumacher's car....he was directly behind Senna.

Now refresh my memory Pockets...perhaps this replay was edited...but I recall a large amount of time showing Senna's car being covered and him being removed...even helicopter shots looking down on the car. To be fair, American racing is not the only form to have the media concentrate on the dark allure of an accident.

By the way, the latest news is that the lawsuit over his death is being reopened in Italy. Every driver deserves as safe a car as can he given him, but if owners and designers are held libel for every racing accident, then F1 in Europe, and maybe elsewhere, is over.

Don
__________________
Cats: Clio, Inky, Sheba, Sparky, Rocky, Cali, Scooter
3 cars: 02 SVT Focus, 2012 Versa...2015 Fiat 500
currently SVX-less
1 wife ("She, who must be obeyed..")

"One advantage of being disorderly is that one is constantly making exciting discoveries"
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-03-2004, 06:02 PM
Mr. Pockets's Avatar
Mr. Pockets Mr. Pockets is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Champaign, IL
Posts: 6,916
Send a message via ICQ to Mr. Pockets
Registered SVX
Re: Senna

Quote:
Originally posted by SVXphile
Shoot, I forgot about that program. I had wanted to watch it again. If memory serves me, the in-car camera that showed Senna going off track was in Michael Shumacher's car....he was directly behind Senna.
You are correct.

Quote:
Originally posted by SVXphile
Now refresh my memory Pockets...perhaps this replay was edited...but I recall a large amount of time showing Senna's car being covered and him being removed...even helicopter shots looking down on the car. To be fair, American racing is not the only form to have the media concentrate on the dark allure of an accident.
Today was the first time I saw the race, and Speed Channel edits them down to an hour, so, no, they never showed Senna being removed from the car. The showed the accident itself, when it happened, and never again.

To be fair, as you said, I would expect that the footage of Senna being removed from the car was probably out of concern far more than it was out of 'dark allure.' But then I didn't see the race when it happened. Still, I definitely get the impression that everybody - from the fans to the crews - was terribly concerned and wanted every scrap of info they could get. That, and the race was probably stopped for some time. I imagine that's why the helicopter footage was used.

Anyway, in lieu of that footage Speed had interviews with people about what they felt at the time and what everybody knew when. It was a really well-done show.

Quote:
Originally posted by SVXphile
By the way, the latest news is that the lawsuit over his death is being reopened in Italy. Every driver deserves as safe a car as can he given him, but if owners and designers are held libel for every racing accident, then F1 in Europe, and maybe elsewhere, is over.

Don
I agree, and team managers have said as much. Apparently there are now EU laws on the books which make it very easy for a person to be held in jail, indefinitely (and in a foreign country) awaiting a murder trial. Since the Senna case is still not settled (in the Italian government's opinion), I can understand the teams' concerns.

F1 is moving more and more out of Europe. If the EU isn't careful (or if they intend it), they'll lose every European GP eventually.
__________________


2005 RX-8 Grand Touring
2005 Outback
2002 Mercedes-Benz E320 wagon

END OF LINE

Last edited by Mr. Pockets; 04-03-2004 at 06:06 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-03-2004, 08:52 PM
SVXphile's Avatar
SVXphile SVXphile is offline
Ain't it the truth?
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Hinton, WV
Posts: 2,386
Send a message via Yahoo to SVXphile
Senna

I don't recall seeing him actually removed from the car since there were tarps covering the entire scene, but the cameras covered the location from several angles....plus the air. The only film of the wreck itself was from Michael's camera, and I think it only showed Senna going off the track. I may be wrong, but I don't recall that it showed the impact with the wall....it might have, but I think it was off-camera to the right. They did show that clip several times, but not as much as the media would have here stateside. They concentrated on a telescopic shot of Senna slumped in the cockpit. There was no obvious damage to his head from that side, if I recall, or they would have not used that shot. The car was blocked off from view very shortly afterward when the rescue people saw the extent of his injury. What a loss...

More on the court case:

http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/news/story?id=1773465

Bernie says he would hate to see some of the old races cancelled but cigarette money talks I guess. Nascar can do quite well without it, I can't imagine F1 couldn't also.

http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/news/story?id=1773422

Don

PS...."Still, I definitely get the impression that everybody - from the fans to the crews - was terribly concerned and wanted every scrap of info they could get"

I think the same could be said about Dale Earnhardt's wreck at Daytona, but because it's Nascar, the legitimate concern of fans and crew was perceived as something akin to ambulance chasing. "Rednecks" are often not given the same credit for compassion as other race fans. Since the hero worship for Big E was almost to religious proportions for some, the thought of him being seriously injured or killed was devastating. The number of stickers on vehicle windows and bumpers testify to the intensity of those feelings.
__________________
Cats: Clio, Inky, Sheba, Sparky, Rocky, Cali, Scooter
3 cars: 02 SVT Focus, 2012 Versa...2015 Fiat 500
currently SVX-less
1 wife ("She, who must be obeyed..")

"One advantage of being disorderly is that one is constantly making exciting discoveries"

Last edited by SVXphile; 04-03-2004 at 09:10 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-04-2004, 10:41 AM
Mr. Pockets's Avatar
Mr. Pockets Mr. Pockets is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Champaign, IL
Posts: 6,916
Send a message via ICQ to Mr. Pockets
Registered SVX
Besides the shot from Michael's car, as soon as Senna was off-screen to the left, they cut to a shot from a stationary camera. It was definitely a violent crash, but it should have been a survivable one had it not been for the stray suspension arm.

I can't comment on the coverage of Earnhardt's crash - I wasn't watching the race.
__________________


2005 RX-8 Grand Touring
2005 Outback
2002 Mercedes-Benz E320 wagon

END OF LINE
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-05-2004, 11:55 AM
dcarrb dcarrb is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: none
Posts: 3,430
Re: Senna

Quote:
Originally posted by SVXphile
They concentrated on a telescopic shot of Senna slumped in the cockpit...
He moved his head before slumping over, and the commentator(s) exclaimed about the considerable length of time it took for medical personnel to reach the scene.


dcb
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-07-2004, 06:03 PM
SVXphile's Avatar
SVXphile SVXphile is offline
Ain't it the truth?
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Hinton, WV
Posts: 2,386
Send a message via Yahoo to SVXphile
Just got back from a short trip, and saw your post dcarrb. I had forgotten about how long it took to get to Senna. In his case, it probably wouldn't have make any difference, but it has...and will...to others. I think CART has the right approach for on-site rescue and medical teams. Other sanctioning bodies could learn from them.

Don
__________________
Cats: Clio, Inky, Sheba, Sparky, Rocky, Cali, Scooter
3 cars: 02 SVT Focus, 2012 Versa...2015 Fiat 500
currently SVX-less
1 wife ("She, who must be obeyed..")

"One advantage of being disorderly is that one is constantly making exciting discoveries"
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-07-2004, 10:35 PM
Mr. Pockets's Avatar
Mr. Pockets Mr. Pockets is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Champaign, IL
Posts: 6,916
Send a message via ICQ to Mr. Pockets
Registered SVX
Quote:
Originally posted by SVXphile
Just got back from a short trip, and saw your post dcarrb. I had forgotten about how long it took to get to Senna. In his case, it probably wouldn't have make any difference, but it has...and will...to others. I think CART has the right approach for on-site rescue and medical teams. Other sanctioning bodies could learn from them.

Don
Why? What does CART do that's so special? F1's medical teams seem to be pretty efficient at getting on the scene and handling things.
__________________


2005 RX-8 Grand Touring
2005 Outback
2002 Mercedes-Benz E320 wagon

END OF LINE
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-08-2004, 07:53 AM
dcarrb dcarrb is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: none
Posts: 3,430
Quote:
Originally posted by SVXphile
Just got back from a short trip, and saw your post dcarrb. I had forgotten about how long it took to get to Senna. In his case, it probably wouldn't have make any difference, but it has...and will...to others. I think CART has the right approach for on-site rescue and medical teams. Other sanctioning bodies could learn from them.

Don
Yes, in Senna's case, surely the delayed arrival of medical assistance was not a factor in his death.

(As I'm sure many know), NASCAR has eliminated racing back to the caution flag so that rescue personnel can take to the track immediately following an accident.

Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Pockets


Why? What does CART do that's so special? F1's medical teams seem to be pretty efficient at getting on the scene and handling things.
The Senna crash occurred years ago and things have certainly improved considerably since, but the delay in reaching him was breathtakingly long. We've all seen similar instances in all motorsports, not just Formula One.


dcb
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04-08-2004, 07:58 AM
Mr. Pockets's Avatar
Mr. Pockets Mr. Pockets is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Champaign, IL
Posts: 6,916
Send a message via ICQ to Mr. Pockets
Registered SVX
Quote:
Originally posted by dcarrb


The Senna crash occurred years ago and things have certainly improved considerably since, but the delay in reaching him was breathtakingly long. We've all seen similar instances in all motorsports, not just Formula One.


dcb
I understand that things have changed. I know that what happened in Senna's case sparked the changes that are still in efect these days. That wasn't my question. I asked what CART does that's so great.
__________________


2005 RX-8 Grand Touring
2005 Outback
2002 Mercedes-Benz E320 wagon

END OF LINE
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-09-2004, 03:38 PM
SVXphile's Avatar
SVXphile SVXphile is offline
Ain't it the truth?
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Hinton, WV
Posts: 2,386
Send a message via Yahoo to SVXphile
To answer your question...

Pockets, CART decided several years ago to have one medical team travel to each race venue. This eliminates the variations in treatment that the drivers would receive at the different local hospitals....most of which are not experts in the types of trauma
experienced by drivers in high speed accidents. Nascar is considering a similar approach. I found a article that refers to what CART has done:

http://www.sptimes.com/2003/02/21/Gr...on_of_sa.shtml

Dr. Trammel has saved the lives of, and reassembled, scores of drivers. Anyone he trains, has learned from the best.

Don
__________________
Cats: Clio, Inky, Sheba, Sparky, Rocky, Cali, Scooter
3 cars: 02 SVT Focus, 2012 Versa...2015 Fiat 500
currently SVX-less
1 wife ("She, who must be obeyed..")

"One advantage of being disorderly is that one is constantly making exciting discoveries"
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-09-2004, 04:43 PM
YodaIsGod
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
F1 costs are high, but that's the price to compete.

Unlike....let's say MLB, the Yankees have the highest payroll ($183 mil), that puts them in contention every year. But it doesn't work for all teams....like the Mets $100mil+ payroll. But small market teams such as the Marlins were able to win the world series, and the Angels won with a $66mil payroll.

Too bad it's not like this in F1....unless the first half of the starting grid crashes and/or has mechanical problems during at least half the races. Then you get smaller teams like Sauber & Jordan winning half the races and some REAL competition for the driver & manufacturer's titles

In NASCAR, even the big money teams such as RCR, DEI, Penske South, etc have a good shot of winning, although smaller teams have just as good a shot.

Racing in general needs more parity.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-09-2004, 05:18 PM
lee lee is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Indialantic, Florida
Posts: 2,940
Quote:
Originally posted by YodaIsGod
...snip...

Racing in general needs more parity.
That sounds good if you say it real fast. I even said it in another post, but I'm gonna explore my feminine side and contradict myself.

Racing is about excellence. (and the preceding period was an emphasized period).

I think there are too many rules in F-1 now if it wants to continue to have bragging rights to the ultimate motorsport.

I'd prefer two rules:

1) Team spending limit (total, not just the car), and
2) Specified engine displacement and minimum vehicle weight

Where are the 6-wheel machines now? What about AWD that we all like in our own cars so much. I'd love to see F-1 paddle shifting in my car. Lancia once had a rally machine with both super & turbo charging, but it was legislated out of existence before they ever really debugged it....the list goes on.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04-09-2004, 06:09 PM
Mr. Pockets's Avatar
Mr. Pockets Mr. Pockets is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Champaign, IL
Posts: 6,916
Send a message via ICQ to Mr. Pockets
Registered SVX
Re: To answer your question...

Quote:
Originally posted by SVXphile
Pockets, CART decided several years ago to have one medical team travel to each race venue. This eliminates the variations in treatment that the drivers would receive at the different local hospitals....most of which are not experts in the types of trauma
experienced by drivers in high speed accidents. Nascar is considering a similar approach. I found a article that refers to what CART has done:
Ah. Yeah, F1 does something very similar. I think there is a local medical team at each venue, but the permanent staff inspects the facilities and everything well before an event and travels with the circus.
__________________


2005 RX-8 Grand Touring
2005 Outback
2002 Mercedes-Benz E320 wagon

END OF LINE
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:35 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
© 2001-2015 SVX World Network
(208)-906-1122