Spreading Democracy - Mission Being Accomplished!

[Weebitob]

Originally Posted by Matthewmongan

is forced freedom true freedom?


who made america the dictator of morality and justice?

The UN did silly, when the Korean war started.

[Seraph]

Originally Posted by Noir

however, it does suck that it's not possible to buy certain weapons and toys that some law enforcement and military get.

Uzis and small semi autos can be sold now. Although it's fully illegal to modify them.... you get the picture....

It seems that most people have understood my main argument or purpose in posting those cartoons. A few others have moved into the sphere of gun control and touched on the merits of the Second Amendment. Frankly I don’t care much one way or the other regarding the right to bear arms within the USA. That is an internal US matter, and I don’t live there and am not a US citizen so it doesn’t affect me. Perhaps I’d be more involved in the gun issue if we had to move there for a few years.

Making the “right to bear arms” an actual responsibility and duty of all American citizens has come up for discussion in the media several times in the past few years. Speculation as to whether it would contribute to crime or actually reduce rates in the USA run the whole gamut. Some feel it would infringe on a person’s right NOT to bear arms.

I’ve lived in Switzerland, where every adult male citizen must go through military training, and must at all times keep military issue equipment, guns and ammo in their homes. In addition, every single Swiss house and apartment building is to this day built with a mandatory bomb shelter. We used ours for storage.

Let’s take a look at how the Swiss do it:

The Swiss army is primarily a militia army. The standing forces are relatively small, but the reservist forces form an important component. All male citizens between the ages of 19 and 26 are liable for basic military training. After basic military training, all men have reservist duties up to the age of 34, and up to 50 for officers. Reservist duties also include home maintenance of equipment, a rifle and ammunition. These weapons are fully automatic, military assault rifles, and by law they must be kept locked up. They also must have at least 72 rounds of ammunition on hand at all times. Because so many people own rifles, there is no regulation on carrying them.

Handguns are treated differently. In 1993, Swiss voters approved a constitutional amendment which authorized the Federal Parliament to pass a Firearms Control Law aimed at making access to some firearms more difficult. As an aside, the Swiss practice a more direct form of democracy than the USA. Citizens may propose legislation or constitutional amendments, which are put to a popular vote and must be implemented by the government if passed. The only other country to allow voters this right on national questions is Italy. (but discussing and comparing differing forms of democracy belongs in another post, so I’ll move on.)

For conscientious objectors, there is a way to avoid actual military duty. The law states: "Those liable for compulsory military service who can credibly assert that performing military service is incompatible with their conscience, must perform civilian substitute service".

Men who are legally exempt from service (for medical or social reasons) must pay a substitute military tax up to the age of 50. The tax is two per cent of taxable income and is at least 150 CHF. (about $114 US) Refusal to pay military tax is punishable on each occasion by one to ten days' imprisonment. Under the Law on Civilian Service, total refusal is punishable by up to 18 months' imprisonment.

Every year, approx. 40,000 young men reach conscription age. The Swiss Ministry of Defence claims that the armed forces are capable of full mobilisation within 72 hours. That means that in 3 days, the Swiss could have over 500,000 trained and equipped troops available at need. Not bad for a country with a population of less than 7.5 million, 20% of which are foreign nationals.

I wonder what would happen if the laws in the USA were changed to something like what the Swiss have.

[SilverSpear]

Doug i have to tell you something about your country's logic, and probably any country's logic: don't think any country in the world will do you a favor in anything without a cost. The United States took advantage from Sep 11 to wipe out all the dictatorships in the Middle East and Asia and at the same time control the oil wells which will give her the lead to control the world supply. USA mainly wants two things from the countries it is invading: Resources and Military Bases.

Everybody knows that the cause of America entering WW2 was the disaster at Pearl Harbor. What did it get into return? World respect, revenge and other benefits... for example Germany: Military Bases and German Scientists which were behind Hitler's war advantage (V1 and V2 long range missiles). Who developed the first Atomic Bomb for the USA which ended WW2? And who was developing it before USA took control? You know the answers... Those german scientists were divided between USA and Russia and contributed a great deal in the military advancement for both resulting in the cold war in the fifties and sixties... without them there wouldn't have been a cold war in the first place.

In the same way, why Syria who was supposed to get out from Lebanon in 1992 stayed till 2005 ? because of us needing her to stay? Naaaaaaaa, because of Lebanon's resources and geographical location. From 1992 we had 4 billion $ debt, now we have 60 billion $ (of which 40 are foreign and 20 internal). Why is that? all the countries were able to recouperate after wars except for us. Where did all this debt go and no significant reconstruction projects were realized? STOLEN BY SYRIA !!!

In the Gulf, USA has military bases in KSA (the largest supplier of oil in the middle east), Kuwait, Iraq (this is more than enough) and still Syria (no significant resources except from its north east, oil wells) and Iran (Nuclear resources). USA and France had plans to build up military bases in south and east northern Lebanon just to get a better military advantage over the meditarreanean sea. Hizbullah is the reason behind the failure (or delay, I hope and not failure) of the plans.

Don't get me wrong, I love the USA and I prefer that it have military bases over here, at least we would restore World's economic confidence and military defense in our country and not rely on scrapped old Willis and Jeep pickups (used to be for American soldiers, our gov. is buying them for 50 and 100$ a piece) and 6 military helicopters used in the Vietnam war (also we bought them from your country) that are being used to extinguish far forests fires and filming documentaries over Lebanon. But on the other hand, I withdraw my statement because of USA's reputation related to dumping Toxic Waste in a country (I think it was in the Far East) before leaving it...

I will also take advantage of explaining the idea behind Hizbulla in Lebanon. I will not accuse anyone in my statement, i just want to get the message to you all. Everybody loves his country and will defend it in case of external threat, this is the concept of Hizbulla in Lebanon. In the old bible, the Jews are entitled in the land of David which goes from northern Lebanon (I think still further into syria) and till south palestine. The fights in palestine is for David's promised land, which also extends to Lebanon. Hizbulla are acting as an unregular army, more like terrorists acting against Israel until they successfully wiped them out from south Lebanon. They have a military advantage more than a regular army, this is why they are backed up by our Government. Now Lebanon is virtually liberated, but why still Hizbulla has his weapons? The answer to that is the following: taking for example the peace treaty between Egypt and Israel. They were able to agree on certain economic agenda where Egypt exported goods and services from Israel and vice versa. From the goods imported to Egypt taking for example Belts for clothing. Do you know what those belts turned to carry? Nuclear Radiation (from the metal part of the belts) affecting the genes of persons wearing them which caused a lot of new borns having genital defficiencies. So the Jews conned the Egyptians. Well Hizbulla is thinking from that same perspective: What if the Jews bluffed us by getting out from Lebanon in 2000 forcing us to give up our weapons to the Lebanese government, there would be no resistance whatsoever except from a regular Weak army... it would take Israel just 5 mins to invade Lebanon like it did in 1967.

Do not get me wrong, i am just trying to explain their point of view, which I truly believe in it. But personally i don't like either one of both... for many more reasons...

P.S: Don't shoot the messenger...

[SilverSpear]

Originally Posted by Electrophil

He was Right on it, No WMD's, the emergence of a "Zarqawi" and an Al Queda branch in Iraq, a swift victory followed by unending attacks from continuously regenerating "freedom fighters"....... dead on... down to every detail.... except two.

I need to ask you about the Zarqawi and Al Queda... do you think America is successful in dealing with them? I don't think so. USA just opened the doors of hell on itself and on the whole world, they didn't know that there are no barriers between Muslims either in KSA or Lebanon or Syria or Iraq or Iran... or even the foreigners in USA itself, and the rest of the world. They think they are all close brothers and terrorism will never end up... unless in my opinion, USA stands with the Arabs against the Jews.

I am not trying to defend the Muslims (I am Christian Catholic) i am just trying to communicate a simple fact.

[mohrds]

Originally Posted by Bipa

I wonder what would happen if the laws in the USA were changed to something like what the Swiss have.

I would love for that to happen. I feel that requiring national service, either military or community, is the best solution.

Doug

SilverSpear, it is next to impossible to hold a rational, intellectual, non-emotional discussion about USA-Israel relations.

I can criticise Canadian policy, and nobody will accuse me of being un-Canadian. I am able to criticise German policy, and nobody accuses me of being anti-German. Sometimes, not always, when I voice my dislike for aspects of US policy, I'm accused of being anti-American.

But every single time I have ever voiced even the slightest opposition regarding Israeli policy, I am accused of being anti-Semitic and anti-Israeli.

Considering my family background, it should be even kinda funny. It isn't.

[SilverSpear]

With the permission of moderators, of course.

I have another one but 1.66 mb... i cannot upload.

[SilverSpear]

Originally Posted by Bipa

SilverSpear, it is next to impossible to hold a rational, intellectual, non-emotional discussion about USA-Israel relations.

I can criticise Canadian policy, and nobody will accuse me of being un-Canadian. I am able to criticise German policy, and nobody accuses me of being anti-German. Sometimes, not always, when I voice my dislike for aspects of US policy, I'm accused of being anti-American.

But every single time I have ever voiced even the slightest opposition regarding Israeli policy, I am accused of being anti-Semitic and anti-Israeli.

Considering my family background, it should be even kinda funny. It isn't.

You're cool as always Bipa, I am just trying to "copy paste" what is really happening over here to the good members of this forum. No more no less, i am not trying to criticise anyone... JUST FACTS..

[mohrds]

Originally Posted by Electrophil

He was Right on it, No WMD's, the emergence of a "Zarqawi" and an Al Queda branch in Iraq, a swift victory followed by unending attacks from continuously regenerating "freedom fighters"....... dead on... down to every detail.... except two.

1: Iraqi Civil War by Nov 2004
2: Presidential Impeachment by Sept 2006.

A few months back I ran into him and started joking around with him and hit him up. I said "Well, you were off on that Civil War, you get a C-".

He replied: "What do you call it when Iraqi Civilians run around blowing up other Iraqi Civilians?"

I said: "I call them terrorists."

He replied: "Which is exactly what the Britains called Samuel Adams and his gang as they threw tea around dressed up like Native Americans."

Touche..... If Sept 2006 turns out accurate, I'll be falling out.

There is a huge flaw in his logic. Samuel Adams didn't kill anyone, Iraqi terrorists did. That is like comparing Gandhi's peaceful protests to rioting. They are two different things.

Originally Posted by Electrophil

There must be weight given to education. And if the majority of PhD's lean toward the left..... There must be a reason. They weren't "born" that way because it costs money to go that far. And most big money....especially "old" money leans right. What caused these guys to start leaning left like I finally did? It can't be persuasion from false propaganda... because I watch Fox News daily, and I haven't switched back.

You are missing a huge factor. Universities are islands of free speech, safety, and isolation. A perfect petri dish for philosophical approaches to issues. On a campus, you have no threats and can let your mind wander into Utopia. I'd be curious to know how many professors lean left as opposed to other Phd's out in the working world like the financial, legal, and the medical industries. I don't know what the answer would be, but I have a hunch that the majority would lean right.

PS: I think this is the most civil social debate that this board has ever had

Doug

Samuel Adams = America's Ghandi?! Thanks for the laughs!

Samuel Adams isn’t known for killing innocent folks. He was known for inciting riots where innocent folks got injured and killed.

Samuel Adams did write some interesting stuff, though, which could be considered quite appropriate given today’s situation in Iraq. Read and ponder what he wrote on the 17th of October, 1768:

"No man can pretend to say that the peace and good order of the community is so secure with soldiers quartered in the body of a city as without them. Besides, where military power is introduced, military maxims are propagated and adopted, which are inconsistent with and must soon eradicate every idea of civil government."

[mohrds]

Originally Posted by Bipa

Samuel Adams = America's Ghandi?! Thanks for the laughs!

I didn't say he was a saint by any means. I simply pointed out that the professor's comparison of the Boston tea party with an Iraqi terrorist bombing was way off.

Doug

[Electrophil]

Bingo!! Bipa, that's what happened to us here in the US! This anti-American thing

allowed the Iraqi war to happen. Now I'm not big on Conspiracies, but Karl Rove is from a public relations firm. That has to be taken into consideration.

Prior to 9/11 Bush was in the low 40%'s in approval ratings. We mostly thought he was an idiot. After 9/11 the country rallied like any country would, but somehow the pendulum swung away from "Crisis! support our country!" to "Crisis! Support our president!" His approval ratings skyrocketed.

A lot of us were saying "hey! wait a minute... these attacks happened on his watch... There are documents showing he was warned! The idiot just spent the last 6 weeks on vacation and was warned during his vacation!" The reply
was "We are in a crisis! Support your president!"

Then Al Queda denied committing the attacks, the U.S. demanded Osama, and the Taliban said "Hell, We don't know where he is.", and off we go for a "quicky". I feel that quicky was completely justified under the circumstances.

But then it got worse! Now it's "We are at War!! Support your president!" A bunch of us were screaming at the top of our lungs not to go into Iraq, and to remember the level headed reasons why we didn't go into Baghdad in 1990. But it was "What's wrong with you!

Support your President! Support your troops!"

We were supporting the troops. We were trying to keep them from being killed in an unjustified war. There was some Christian headed, Neo-conservative flood going on, and we were swept into the current kicking and screaming.

Now the heads over here are calming, Bush is back down to the high 30%'s in approval ratings, and the majority now thinks the war was a bad idea. Well duhh!! We didn't go in the first time because.......? Idiocy!!

Now we have over 2,000 American troops dead, over 14,000 disabled, and rumour is over 100,000 Iraqi Civilians dead. I guess the only good thing is maybe some group of religious fanatics somewhere will think twice on attacking us. The reason being that the religious fanatics over here will wipe out 3 or 4 governments in retaliation.

And as abrasive as it may sound, it's true. Behind every good war is a good religion. The bible itself is just one continuous war story of death and destruction.

On a side note. Just to prove how idiotic Bush is, anybody remember how he wanted to call the war in Iraq a "crusade"? He has a degree from Yale.... in History!! My gosh! Did he buy that degree?

[Phast SVX]

Originally Posted by Bipa

Samuel Adams = America's Ghandi?! Thanks for the laughs!

Samuel Adams isn’t known for killing innocent folks. He was known for inciting riots where innocent folks got injured and killed.

Samuel Adams did write some interesting stuff, though, which could be considered quite appropriate given today’s situation in Iraq. Read and ponder what he wrote on the 17th of October, 1768:

"No man can pretend to say that the peace and good order of the community is so secure with soldiers quartered in the body of a city as without them. Besides, where military power is introduced, military maxims are propagated and adopted, which are inconsistent with and must soon eradicate every idea of civil government."

I was not aiming my post towards you bipa. I think you would see a much better audiance(and i would respect you) if you werent so condescending and justified in your words.
there is NO right answer to this, aversion is by far the weakest form of risk management IMO and that is what many people, governments, and our media is suggesting we do. I also would'nt mind seeing a system with mandatory government service. But you could never get that to fly here, too many people are to far removed from reality of life.

phil

[Electrophil]

Originally Posted by SilverSpear

I need to ask you about the Zarqawi and Al Queda... do you think America is successful in dealing with them? I don't think so. USA just opened the doors of hell on itself and on the whole world, they didn't know that there are no barriers between Muslims either in KSA or Lebanon or Syria or Iraq or Iran... or even the foreigners in USA itself, and the rest of the world. They think they are all close brothers and terrorism will never end up... unless in my opinion, USA stands with the Arabs against the Jews.

I am not trying to defend the Muslims (I am Christian Catholic) i am just trying to communicate a simple fact.

No, we are worse off. Al Queda is alive and well, and according to our CIA, it has become more successful in it's recruiting efforts. Hatred for our country is at it's highest level...ever. Our country has also went from a huge surplus in it's budget to a doubling of it's National Debt over the last 5 years.