MotorTrend Article - '05 Evolution MR vs '05 Subaru STI!!!

[Shadow248]

After all this time, you finally show me that you do have some roots here on earth.

I'm not even goign to comment on Shark's pointless ramblings. He's obviously run out of real rebuttals and is now starting on his way down to the late great Rob's level. If the only thing you have to say back to me is a redneck joke, then don't bother. I could go all day with the "I live in my mom's basement and drive her hand-me-down subarus with 'da skils' I got from playing GT3 all day" jokes. That's a waste of time.

For the five-billionth time, I have no intention of turning this board into a GM satellite. If you love subarus, then that's frikin great for you. There are alot of respectable things about a subaru. For instance, the STI is a really fast economy car. It can comfortably seat four, carry a full load of luggage and handle in all sorts of weather. All things my T/A can't do. But does that make it better statistically? No way. Two cars, two different purposes. Why are we comparing them? Because they cost the same. Why? Who knows. That's my point. The T/A is a purpose built sports car. It's made to do two things - go fast and look good doing it. Can anyone argue it isn't extremely successful at both? Same as the Camaro, GTO, and Vette. So why do we care how a four door econobox does compared to a two door, two seat, all out exotic sports car? (reffering to the MR vs. ZO6 article). And on top of that, why are we willing to pay sports car prices for an economy car? Trying to say that the STI is as good a sports car as the T/A or Camaro is stupid...that's like saying i'm as good a singer as Billy Joel. I can sing very well. I may sound as good as him...but i'm definetly not as good as him. Get it yet?

So if you prefer a sporty 4-door over a 2-door purpose built speedster, that's just fine. I'll probably be leaning that direction myself someday. But don't pull up next to me in your 4-door and try to race me. I'm going to laugh at you...why? Because you apparently don't realize what you are driving. It may be as fast as my "fast car" but what does that prove? It just proves that you wasted your money buying a comfortable economy car when what you really wanted was a sports car. Thats like me putting a $2000 leather sofa in the back of my trans am, or disabling 4 cylinders to save on gas. Got it?

Oh and about the interiors argument...Let's stop comparing the 2004 STI to 1988 camaros. Yeah that's fair. If I compared the 1988 IROC to a 1988 loyale, that'd be a different story. I've been in a few of those subarus and they are as abysmal as the camaro. EVERYONE has come along way in build quality. I've never heard anyone complain about 97+ Vettes and 98+ F-bodys. In fact I know of several guys who sold their Camaros and T/As, then checked out a new STI but ended up with a GTO because "the STI interior was so cheap".

Originally posted by Chiketkd
Either way, I appreciate your comments majeskyb, and all the best to you and your wife. I love a hearty discussion among intellectual adults. Resorting to name calling never does anything but infuriate people and degregate the value of the discussion at hand.

My motto. I wish more people would learn the value of mature discussion. AHEMLandsharkAHEM.

[Landshark]

Originally posted by Shadow248
But don't pull up next to me in your 4-door and try to race me. I'm going to laugh at you...why? Because you apparently don't realize what you are driving. It may be as fast as my "fast car" but what does that prove? It just proves that you wasted your money buying a comfortable economy car when what you really wanted was a sports car. Thats like me putting a $2000 leather sofa in the back of my trans am, or disabling 4 cylinders to save on gas. Got it?

are you are on crack - i ask that in all seriousness.

please answer these questions:

1. why would i "really want a sports car", when an STi is equivalent in power/handling/braking, and can carry four adults comfortably and not require another car for bad weather?

2. STi's (or EVO's) are not "comfortable", nor do they have great fuel economy. what "comfortable economy car" are you referring to?

3. which is the biggest "waste of money" - spending $30000 or so dollars on a car that has to sit in a garage for several months out of the year, or spending it on a car that is as FUN to drive in snowstorms as it is on nice summer days?

4. would a $2000 leather sofa really fit in the back of your Trans-Am?

5. on paying sports car prices for economy cars - the STi and EVO are basically street-legal racecars. there is a sport called the World Rally Championship that is the most demanding and challenging motorsport there is. have you ever heard of it?

no pointless ramblings - just answer the questions, please.

[n00b on demand]

shut up shut up shut up shut upppppp!!!!!! ....reading this thread gave me a headache.

[Landshark]

Originally posted by soobiesvx93
shut up shut up shut up shut upppppp!!!!!! ....reading this thread gave me a headache.

here's a tip, Einstein - don't read it, m'kay?

[immortal_suby]

Originally posted by Shadow248
But don't pull up next to me in your 4-door and try to race me. I'm going to laugh at you...why? Because you apparently don't realize what you are driving. It may be as fast as my "fast car" but what does that prove? It just proves that you wasted your money buying a comfortable economy car when what you really wanted was a sports car.

No - but it does prove that an STI/EVO driver can have their cake and make you eat it too.

True - the camaro/firebird and sti/evo are both fast and ugly in stock form. But you can throw some luggage, a set of golf clubs, and 3 friends in the jap cars and drive anywhere comfortably and then handily whip the snot out of most of them in a straight line or corner.

I understand your pain - If you buy a sports car only because it is supposed to be the fastest thing on the road and then get your ass handed to you by a 4 door jap car with an engine half the size, I guess I'd be a little bitter as well.

[Shadow248]

1. why would i "really want a sports car", when an STi is equivalent in power/handling/braking, and can carry four adults comfortably and not require another car for bad weather?

I can't tell you what you want. If you feel the STI is just as good as a sports car, then that's cool. Remember that many people disagree with you. IMO the STI is not a sports car. It's a 4-door economy car on crack. Just because it's as fast as some pretty fast sports cars doesn't mean it's at their level. There's more to sports cars then just performance.

2. STi's (or EVO's) are not "comfortable", nor do they have great fuel economy. what "comfortable economy car" are you referring to?

I wasn't necessarily referring to STIs or EVOs. But to clear that up...I think my T/A is extremely comfortable. However I am constantly hearing people on this board tell me it is not. So i'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt and act like I think you actually know something about my car.

3. which is the biggest "waste of money" - spending $30000 or so dollars on a car that has to sit in a garage for several months out of the year, or spending it on a car that is as FUN to drive in snowstorms as it is on nice summer days?

IMO - The STI is a waste of money...period. Because no matter how fast it is, it's still a Subaru Impreza. The T/A has an image about it. The only people you are going to get respect from in an STI are teenagers who play too much GT3. I can't go 1 mile in my car without someone yelling "sweet car", or "WHOA" or having some girl trip over herself watching it go by. That's what I mean. Sports Cars have that "image", and economy cars just can't match that, no matter how fast they are. Not everybody feels this way, I know, but I think most people who spend $30k or better on a fast car want the respect that should go with it, right?

4. would a $2000 leather sofa really fit in the back of your Trans-Am?

That's a good question. My idea was that in putting that thing in my car, I would be doing the "custom fabrication" necessary to make it fit and look right...etc. But it would still be ridiculous, beucase I bought a sports car. If I wanted comfort and style I could have bought a BMW or the like.

5. on paying sports car prices for economy cars - the STi and EVO are basically street-legal racecars. there is a sport called the World Rally Championship that is the most demanding and challenging motorsport there is. have you ever heard of it?

As for if it's the most demanding, that's your opinion. I'd say F1 is tougher, but again that's my opinion, and just what I picked up from my driving classes. I've driven trucks on dirt at high speed, but never WRC type cars. It's not as hard as keeping a car on asphalt at 200mph. But again, I can't pretend to know what really is tougher, because it's all subjective. Also, I would never argue that the T/A could run with a WRC car, it's not intended for that. Those are differently set up cars. The STI is not a race car....it's a rally car. That's different.

Originally posted by immortal_suby
True - the camaro/firebird and sti/evo are both fast and ugly in stock form. But you can throw some luggage, a set of golf clubs, and 3 friends in the jap cars and drive anywhere comfortably and then handily whip the snot out of most of them in a straight line or corner.

I have no need to carry three friends in my car. They all have cars too. Plus, if I want to carry all that stuff, I will just drive a 4-door car. I can very easily fit myself, a passenger and ton's of luggage in my car and still "whip the snot" out of an STI or EVO. That's all I need.

Originally posted by immortal_suby
I understand your pain - If you buy a sports car only because it is supposed to be the fastest thing on the road and then get your ass handed to you by a 4 door jap car with an engine half the size, I guess I'd be a little bitter as well.

You don't understand...I have no pain. Even in stock form, the two STIs and one EVO I raced didn't pose much competition. I keep hearing that i'm going to get my ass handed to me. When? How long will I have to wait for this magical STI to line up next to me at a light and just run away? It's not going to happen. It didn't happen when my T/A was stock, and it's definetly not going to happen now with over 420hp under the hood. On a daily basis I read about stories where stock T/As (and Camaros) consistently beat STIs and EVOs on the street and at the track, on film and computer verified. I witnessed a heavily modified EVO run consistent 12.4's at Island Dragway last weekend, then get annihilated by a 2001 Camaro SS with nothing but a full intake and exhaust.

Now to top it off you are trying to compare some EVO to a Corvette ZO6? Keep dreaming. Just because a few good drivers have been able to give these cars a run for their money, don't inflate your heads just yet. You still have a long way to go.

[immortal_suby]

Originally posted by Shadow248
The T/A has an image about it.

[Chiketkd]

Ha ha ha!





-Chike

[Landshark]

Originally posted by Shadow248
There's more to sports cars then just performance.........

IMO - The STI is a waste of money...period. Because no matter how fast it is, it's still a Subaru Impreza. The T/A has an image about it. The only people you are going to get respect from in an STI are teenagers who play too much GT3. I can't go 1 mile in my car without someone yelling "sweet car", or "WHOA" or having some girl trip over herself watching it go by. That's what I mean. Sports Cars have that "image", and economy cars just can't match that, no matter how fast they are. Not everybody feels this way, I know, but I think most people who spend $30k or better on a fast car want the respect that should go with it, right? .

now i understand - you're a "flosser."

i don't know what kind of image the Firebird has in East B.F., but here they don't get a second look. Firebirds/Camaros/Corvettes/Mustangs, etc. are a dime a dozen. maybe in your town you get some kind of rock star treatment when driving your Firebird down to the local honky tonk?

see, here is the fundamental difference between you and i - i don't need a car with an "image" about it, i don't need to get people's respect about my choice of vehicle, and i don't need dudes and girlies shouting "Whoa!" at me when i drive by. i've owned two "Looker" cars in my life, but that was entirely for ME. the two cars i'm referring to were rare, oddball type of cars anyway. i bought them because *i* liked looking at them and driving them. i could give a rat's ass what the mulletheads and GT gamers think. if you need your ego stroked, that's your problem - it doesn't really figure into my criteria for a car.

it may also be a problem with inadequacy, know what i mean?

[Landshark]

[Shadow248]

Originally posted by Landshark
now i understand - you're a "flosser."

i don't know what kind of image the Firebird has in East B.F., but here they don't get a second look. Firebirds/Camaros/Corvettes/Mustangs, etc. are a dime a dozen. maybe in your town you get some kind of rock star treatment when driving your Firebird down to the local honky tonk?

see, here is the fundamental difference between you and i - i don't need a car with an "image" about it, i don't need to get people's respect about my choice of vehicle, and i don't need dudes and girlies shouting "Whoa!" at me when i drive by. i've owned two "Looker" cars in my life, but that was entirely for ME. the two cars i'm referring to were rare, oddball type of cars anyway. i bought them because *i* liked looking at them and driving them. i could give a rat's ass what the mulletheads and GT gamers think. if you need your ego stroked, that's your problem - it doesn't really figure into my criteria for a car.

It's funny that you talk about me having an ego when you're the one who desperately tries to come up with rebuttals for everything I say. Every man has an ego...but notice i'm not the one posting "owned" pictures here. That shows everyone where the egos really are.

You don't have to tell me there's a difference between me and you. That's obvious. You will be driving a minivan within the next 5 years or so. I still have at least 10 years before I have to worry about that. That's life. It happens. There's no need to take out your anger about it on me.

I can't really claim the mullet association is unfair, it's to be expected. First, it's just about the only thing ricers have on V8's, and Two, the V8 sites are constantly joking about the GT3/mom's basement loser image that goes with the ricemobiles.

What you said is even more funny because i'm the last person who cares what other people think about me. I was simply making a point that you don't just buy a sportscar because of performance. If that were the case, there wouldn't be such a thing as red paint.

By the way, i've driven in downtown Pitt before, and I get the same reactions there. No one gives a crap about the EVOs and STIs, but they definetly watch the V8s go by.

[immortal_suby]

Originally posted by Shadow248
What you said is even more funny because i'm the last person who cares what other people think about me.

Originally posted by Shadow248
The only people you are going to get respect from in an STI are teenagers who play too much GT3. I can't go 1 mile in my car without someone yelling "sweet car", or "WHOA" or having some girl trip over herself watching it go by. That's what I mean. Sports Cars have that "image".

so what is the point you are trying to make?

[Landshark]

Originally posted by Shadow248
You will be driving a minivan within the next 5 years or so. I still have at least 10 years before I have to worry about that.

The T/A has an image about it. The only people you are going to get respect from in an STI are teenagers who play too much GT3. I can't go 1 mile in my car without someone yelling "sweet car", or "WHOA" or having some girl trip over herself watching it go by. That's what I mean. Sports Cars have that "image", and economy cars just can't match that, no matter how fast they are. Not everybody feels this way, I know, but I think most people who spend $30k or better on a fast car want the respect that should go with it, right?

.
.

hat you said is even more funny because i'm the last person who cares what other people think about me.

John Kerry, is that you?

[Chiketkd]

Originally posted by Shadow248
Sports Cars have that "image"

Shadow, sports cars do have a certain image but the term is used so loosely these days...

'Image' was what Porsche/Ferrari/Aston Martin/Jaguar used to justify their enormously high price tags when the bargain priced Japanese supercars came along in the 90's and nearly put them out of business - 300ZX TT, Supra TT, NSX, 3000GT VR-4, RX-7 and SVX.

And if you wanted to go by the strictest definition of the term 'sports car' the Trans Am wouldn't qualify as it has a solid rear axle and is rightly termed a 'muscle car'...

Originally posted by Shadow248
Now to top it off you are trying to compare some EVO to a Corvette ZO6? Keep dreaming. Just because a few good drivers have been able to give these cars a run for their money, don't inflate your heads just yet. You still have a long way to go. [/B]

Dude, the sports car world has moved on to embrace 'sports cars' of all origins... Ever heard of the Nissan Skyline GT-R??? It was based on the low-to-mid priced JDM skyline family sedan. Nissan let their engineers go crazy on the thing and produced an awd twin-turbo 2.6L inline-6 that was so successful in international racing competition that it was banned.

Also, you've only talked about drag racing. While that's a form of racing I'm personally into as well, I also love AutoX and know that this form of racing is a truer test of my car's abilities.

I have personally seen stock STIs/EVOs turn in raw times at AutoX events equal to or better than any Corvette Z06.

You say your '99 T/A flat out destroys the road. Take it to an AutoX track and see what that rear axle does for ya... A base model WRX will have your 420hp fire-breathing 'garage queen' for lunch!

-Chike

[Shadow248]

In response to what immortal_suby and Landshark said

I see what you are trying to say...show me exactly where in that comment I said "my car's image is important to me". Or anything even close to that. I bought a Trans Am because I wanted it. I got the LPE stage I package for two reasons, 1 - because I really admire what John Lingenfelter did for American V8s, and 2 - because I wanted it. I could give a care less if people think my car is fast. It's when people try to tell me that i'm driving a piece of crap and that their STI is better built or more reliable that pisses me off. It's just not true. However most people are not like me...they want a car like mine because of the image it has. A few people think that is a negative image, the vast majority do not.

Originally posted by Chiketkd
Shadow, sports cars do have a certain image but the term is used so loosely these days...

And what's wrong with that? Do we have to argue the exact definition of a sports car? Can't we call a fast, stylish 2-door a sport's car? I don't see where the problem is.

Originally posted by Chiketkd
'Image' was what Porsche/Ferrari/Aston Martin/Jaguar used to justify their enormously high price tags when the bargain priced Japanese supercars came along in the 90's and nearly put them out of business - 300ZX TT, Supra TT, NSX, 3000GT VR-4, RX-7 and SVX.

I think the 300ZX, Supra, NSX, VR-4, RX-7, and SVX all have just as much "image" as my car. To me they are all in the same class - decently priced sports cars. Yeah the SVX is nowhere near as fast as my T/A, so what. Like I said performance isn't everything. The SVX turned almost as many, and sometimes more, heads than my T/A does. You don't have to drive a Ferrari to have an image car. Granted those types of cars have an image on a whole nother level, but that doesn't mean they are the only attention getters.

Originally posted by Chiketkd
And if you wanted to go by the strictest definition of the term 'sports car' the Trans Am wouldn't qualify as it has a solid rear axle and is rightly termed a 'muscle car'...

I know this. To me (and everyone i've ever talked to about it) a muscle car is a type of sports car.

Originally posted by Chiketkd
You say your '99 T/A flat out destroys the road. Take it to an AutoX track and see what that rear axle does for ya... A base model WRX will have your 420hp fire-breathing 'garage queen' for lunch!

See this is where I get the idea that you guys don't know what you're talking about. Everyone here tries to tell me that my car doesn't handle worth a crap. You're flat out wrong. It's like you try to inflate how the STI handles so maybe that makes up for other things? I don't know why that is, but here's the facts.

Subaru WRX STI (from Car&Driver sept 2004)
Skidpad: .90g
1/4mile: 13.5sec @ 101mph

Trans Am WS6 (from Car&Driver feb 2000)
Skidpad: .88g
1/4mile: 13.2sec @108mph

So the STI has me by a hair. So where's this huge handling deficit? Considering the WS6 has a "dinosaur live axle rear" and the STI has a "state of the art independent rear", it seems like this should be an embarrassment. Or wasn't I supposed to see that?

Now consider that my car has 420hp...that means that if the AutoX track I happen to be racing on has any kind of straightaway, forget it. Oh and don't worry about stopping at the end of that straightaway, the WS6 has the very same acclaimed braking system as the C5 Vette. On top of that, I can put out a mere $800 for the handling package that goes with the engine package I got, and my car will pull over 1g on the skidpad. Enough said.

Bring on the mullet comments.